How Free is our Free-Will?

[jkiernan56]

jkiernan56;4802849:

I do not know all the laws of the universe so cannot answer.

I can deal with one at a time though. Pick one.

Is gravity a fair law. Let me say yes because I have no argument against it.
How’s that for a start.

I honestly didn’t think I could get you to admit that. My sincere thank you.

Now if you choose to violate the physical laws of the universe and suffer negative consequences, is that UNFAIR? (because you are NOT free to do whatever you want?)

 

[Justafool]

Justafool;4802891:

I don’t have to … you made the premise and I am following it thru it’s course. If you change your premise to “Some laws discriminate” that changes things.

Again … I’m not the one who made the premise … you did … I am only trying to establish a starting point.

Again … if I misstated your original premise … point it out … I didn’t write it and am trying to understand it … and if I cannot understand your starting point then there is no point.

You did not misstate mine, you just added a qualifier and asked me to prove it for you.

You want me to go from all, to some.
Show which law pushes you to ask for the change and I will be pleased to evaluate it. You must have had some exception to the rule in mind.

 

[Justafool]

Justafool;4802908:

I honestly didn’t think I could get you to admit that. My sincere thank you.

Now if you choose to violate the physical laws of the universe and suffer negative consequences, is that UNFAIR? (because you are NOT free to do whatever you want?)

I thought that that was what I said initially.
Every law is death to freedom.
None are free if there are laws to follow.

To say that God has given us freedom is not a true statement if there are any laws that restrict us.

That may be why that the laws of my country are written in French first instead of English because the French do not recognize the word freedom. They use the word liberty to show the limits of what English calls freedom. It seems they recognize that in a world of laws there can be no freedom but only liberty.

 

[jkiernan56]

jkiernan56;4802920:

I thought that that was what I said initially.
Every law is death to freedom.
None are free if there are laws to follow.

To say that God has given us freedom is not a true statement if there are any laws that restrict us.

That may be why that the laws of my country are written in French first instead of English because the French do not recognize the word freedom. They use the word liberty to show the limits of what English calls freedom. It seems they recognize that in a world of laws there can be no freedom but only liberty.

You are right - we are NOT free according to YOUR definition.
Now you are beginning to understand that your idea of Freedom IS NOT the classical philosophical definition.

Freedom does NOT mean being able to do whatever you want and violate certain fundamental realities without experiencing the consequences.

Real freedom is being WILLING and ABLE to make GOOD choices that have POSITIVE consequences. I am not free to swim underwater and try to breath without an oxygen mask and tank. Real freedom is making CHOICES to live within certain fundamental laws that you and others can benefit.

 

[jkiernan56]

jkiernan56;4802920:

I thought that that was what I said initially.
Every law is death to freedom.
None are free if there are laws to follow.

To say that God has given us freedom is not a true statement if there are any laws that restrict us.

That may be why that the laws of my country are written in French first instead of English because the French do not recognize the word freedom. They use the word liberty to show the limits of what English calls freedom. It seems they recognize that in a world of laws there can be no freedom but only liberty.

And because YOU and I have different definitions of FREEDOM, it will be IMPOSSIBLE to have any meaningful dialogue. It would be like a person speaking French trying to communicate with another person who speaks only Chinese. You and I do not speak the same language. Your idea of FREEDOM is ILLOGICAL and not according to REALITY in my opinion.

When I use the word FREEDOM, please substitute your word LIBERTY. Then we can communicate.

 

[Justafool]

Justafool;4802957:

And because YOU and I have different definitions of FREEDOM, it will be IMPOSSIBLE to have any meaningful dialogue. It would be like a person speaking French trying to communicate with another person who speaks only Chinese. You and I do not speak the same language. Your idea of FREEDOM is ILLOGICAL and not according to REALITY in my opinion.

This is probably because I let us get off track.
My initial comment was for man or God made laws. These can discriminate because only people can discriminate.

I mistakenly used a natural law for an example and nature does not discriminate in the sense that I spoke too.

I was trying to speak to of moral laws not natural ones. My mistake.

I stand by my statement as it pertains to our laws.
We have yet to change my mind on those.

 

[Susan1006]

Show how I am wrong with –
All laws or rules are permission and compulsion to discriminate against some sector of society.

If you can show where I ere, then we can go on. No point in intercourse if we cannot get on the same page.

Against whom does “You shall not kill.” discriminate? How about “Love your neighbor as yourself,” And, “Love God with your whole heart, soul and mind.”?

 

[Justafool]

Show how I am wrong with –

All laws or rules are permission and compulsion to discriminate against some sector of society.

Against killers.

How about “Love your neighbor as yourself,”

Against those that will not.

And, “Love God with your whole heart, soul and mind.”?

Against those who will not.

 

[ncgolf]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Susan1006
Show how I am wrong with –
All laws or rules are permission and compulsion to discriminate against some sector of society.

If you can show where I ere, then we can go on. No point in intercourse if we cannot get on the same page.

Against whom does “You shall not kill.” discriminate?

Against killers.

Quote:
How about “Love your neighbor as yourself,”

Against those that will not.

And, “Love God with your whole heart, soul and mind.”?

Against those who will not.

Thank you … I could have not written a better response than what you wrote.

You proved the folly of your original premise … I didn’t.

All laws or rules are permission and compulsion to discriminate against some sector of society.

Both sides of the coin are discriminatory … either laws or lawlessness.

That is why one cannot discuss with you because it is nonsense … just because someone writes something does not make it sensical.

It is the old if God is all powerful then can God build a rock to heavy for him to lift … well if God can then he is not all powerful because there is something he can’t do and if he can … then he is not all powerful because he can’t lift the rock.

Same principle here.

 

[PEPCIS]

For me - freedom is living within the physical and spiritual laws - rather than going against them … just as I don’t intentionally drive a car on the wrong side of the highway … that isn’t freedom … thats stupidity!!! Freedom while driving a car is OBEYING the rules, driving on the correct side of the highway/road and actually getting to my destination.

What you are describing is “license.” There are certain liberties that are granted to citizens of this nation that require a license. This means that, though you are “free” to drive, you must follow rules and regulations which govern this freedom. So driving a car with a license actually LIMITS your freedom to only drive according to those aforementioned rules and regulations. If you fail to follow those rules and regulations, you run the risk of losing that “freedom.”

The Bible has a term for it when people take license to do whatever they want, without regard to the consequences - “Licentiousness.” This is taking the freedom that you do have (which is not absolute), and using it in bad ways. So those who practice pornography, prostitution, etc, are practicing licentiousness.

Susan:

Freedom isn’t doing WHATEVER I WANT WHENEVER I WANT with the idea that there SHOULD NOT BE any negative consequences. That also is idiotic to think that way. Inherent in TRUE Freedom is making choices that are according to reality and the GOOD.

Which means that your freedom is bound, either by the forces of good in this world (every good thing comes from above), or by the forces of evil in this world (Satan, who is the prince of the power of the air).

 

[Justafool]

What you are describing is “license.” There are certain liberties that are granted to citizens of this nation that require a license. This means that, though you are “free” to drive, you must follow rules and regulations which govern this freedom. So driving a car with a license actually LIMITS your freedom to only drive according to those aforementioned rules and regulations. If you fail to follow those rules and regulations, you run the risk of losing that “freedom.”

The Bible has a term for it when people take license to do whatever they want, without regard to the consequences - “Licentiousness.” This is taking the freedom that you do have (which is not absolute), and using it in bad ways. So those who practice pornography, prostitution, etc, are practicing licentiousness.

Which means that your freedom is bound, either by the forces of good in this world (every good thing comes from above), or by the forces of evil in this world (Satan, who is the prince of the power of the air).

Freedom is bound.

That sort of negates freedom, no?

 

[jkiernan56]

Thank you … I could have not written a better response than what you wrote.

You proved the folly of your original premise … I didn’t.

Both sides of the coin are discriminatory … either laws or lawlessness.

That is why one cannot discuss with you because it is nonsense … just because someone writes something does not make it sensical.

It is the old if God is all powerful then can God build a rock to heavy for him to lift … well if God can then he is not all powerful because there is something he can’t do and if he can … then he is not all powerful because he can’t lift the rock.

Same principle here.

Exactly, you cannot reason with the unreasonable. It is TRUE we are NOT Free to do whatever we want WITHOUT consequences. But then again, it would take a reasonable person to understand this concept.

 

[Justafool]

Exactly, you cannot reason with the unreasonable. It is TRUE we are NOT Free to do whatever we want WITHOUT consequences. But then again, it would take a reasonable person to understand this concept.

Is that like when your children leave your home and move into their own place and when they no longer make their beds, you go over and punish them.

After I gave my sons their freedom, I gave up the right to punish.
It is the same with God.

 

[jkiernan56]

Is that like when your children leave your home and move into their own place and when they no longer make their beds, you go over and punish them.

After I gave my sons their freedom, I gave up the right to punish.
It is the same with God.

My sons are free to drink Clorox … and suffer the consequences … but I wouldn’t recommend it. Inherent in actions … are consequences.

 

[Susan1006]

I really don’t know how these posts reach this point. Or, rather, why these posts reach this point. the analogies are sloppy,the arguments are ridiculous. However; when your children are living in a home you created, eating food you created, and breathing air you created. You may reasonably ask them to respect it. If, to return to the original premise just for a moment, they trash your place, they may claim to be exercising their freedom to do so. The fact that you could stop them doesn’t interfere with their freedom. But their actions will have consequences. You may exercise YOUR free will and throw them out of your presence. THEN, in the abyss, you won’t be able to tell them to make their beds any more. Their freedom will be complete.

 

[jkiernan56]

After I gave my sons their freedom, I gave up the right to punish.

Trust me, their own choices will reap their own rewards. You won’t have to punish - the consequences of their actions will do just fine.

 

[soma]

We find free will, but with a limitation. It is like a dog tied to a stake because the dog is free to do whatever it pleases, but it cannot go further than the length of the leash without experiencing pain. Jesus said, “Whatever you sow you shall reap.” Therefore, the evil person will have no greater enemy than himself because everything that strikes the evil person will just be that person’s own evil actions coming back. Pain has this function of teaching us the right path.

 

[PEPCIS]

Freedom is bound.

That sort of negates freedom, no?

No. It limits it.

 

[jkiernan56]

We find free will, but with a limitation. It is like a dog tied to a stake because the dog is free to do whatever it pleases, but it cannot go further than the length of the leash without experiencing pain. Jesus said, “Whatever you sow you shall reap.” Therefore, the evil person will have no greater enemy than himself because everything that strikes the evil person will just be that person’s own evil actions coming back. Pain has this function of teaching us the right path.

Excellent point

 

[joelavenido]

Since we are not all gifted with a degree in Philosophy and Theology, we however are gifted with an ocean of resources. It is best that we use church sanctioned weblinks for our searches. Please copy and paste the following on your web browser to study more on Free Will

newadvent.org/cathen/06259a.htm

I hope this helps.