How Free is our Free-Will?

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Let’s say your on a tall building and your looking over the edge. You see a speeding car about to turn right. and a semi about to make a left at the same time, on the same corner. Neither can see the other approaching. You know that their is going to be a serious accident before it happens, but did you cause it to happen, or for that matter, did you even allow it to happen? No and No!
That’s a rather odd analogy to chose.

You believe that God is all powerful do you not? The 19 year-old standing on top of a building has no power to change the direction of the cars, but God apparently does. In other words, God had a choice to intervene, and did not. God even has the ability do decide whether it is a fatal accident or not.

Now, if you believe that God never intervenes, then it is much more logical. God gives humanity freedom in that he never intervenes… but that’s not what Catholics believe is it? They believe that God can intervene and doesn’t… usually. That means that God does occasionally takes away our free will.

If I see a person being murdered through a telescope, and I can’t intervene, I’m in no way responsible. If it happens in the same room as I’m in, and I have the power to intervene but don’t, then I’m abetting a murder.
 
One can still pray for the semi and the car, one can still pray for those involved in the “telescope murder”. Praying is doing something and it pleases Him that one puts their faith in Him when all appears lost.
 
One can still pray for the semi and the car, one can still pray for those involved in the “telescope murder”. Praying is doing something and it pleases Him that one puts their faith in Him when all appears lost.
I think you missed the entire point of my post.
 
I think you missed the entire point of my post.
Maybe, but I don’t think so. I think it is asserted there is no responsibility if (using the example) murder is seen through a telescope. I would say if one did see a murder through a telescope and did not prary for intervention or that souls be saved that there is some responsibility.

I say a prayer everytime I see a lighted ambulance or firetruck go by. I don’t know whats happening but it needs prayer.
 
Maybe, but I don’t think so. I think it is asserted there is no responsibility if (using the example) murder is seen through a telescope. I would say if one did see a murder through a telescope and did not prary for intervention or that souls be saved that there is some responsibility.
The more important point is that, if God exists, God knows what is going to happen, and has the ability to change the events. Actually, God chose to put that soul in that body, God chose not to intervene at any point leading up to the murder. God chose not to hit that person with lightning.

To say that God is not responsible, or that God’s knowledge doesn’t affect our free will, doesn’t make sense.
I say a prayer everytime I see a lighted ambulance or firetruck go by. I don’t know whats happening but it needs prayer.
You do realize that God supposedly already knows, don’t you? That there are probably other people praying already?
 
I am intrigued by the addiction analogy from earlier in this discussion. I think perhaps addiction is a term for abdication of responsibility to do the next right thing. God not only created us and gave us great gifts, he had begun teaching us His ways, SO WE COULD CHOOSE TO BE WITH HIM FOREVER, walking with us in the cool ofthe evening. We chose (with our free will) to be tempted instead of aghast at the words of Satan, and that story is one reason why I am a Christian. Not only did God mourn our stupidity, he set about providing us with other choices, since we obviously liked choosing for ourselves, so much. If I choose to want to be FREE of God, I may. I may destroy myself any way I want to, but destruction is my certain end. I chose to be free of God. Also, I may choose to want to be FREE with God. And then I make other choices. I ask for advice and I listen to the rules. My choice. But it is arrogance to believe that I can’t make a wrong choice. Without wrong choices there are no right choices. Who is the judge of wrong choices and right choices? Not I. I can’t always tell the difference for various reasons. But of course I have to choose to believe that there is a judge, and He is right, My free will in play again. Free will is everywhere, and is the crux of the matter.
 
Yes Susan, it sorta comes down to the Spirit’ is ‘willing’ but the ‘flesh’ is ‘weak’…

Someone very important said that a while back… and I believe it!
 
Let’s try a somewhat more mechanistic and less-religious inquiry into this question. I often refer to it as ‘free won’t’ as as shorthand, but let’s consider what the brain (and by extension, the mind} actually do when presented with more or less complex choices.

It may help as an analogy to think of the brain automatically throwing up a spreadsheet, or even multiple ones when there is more than a single choice to be made. Naturally, the ‘sheet’ will be weighted towards the choices involving ‘what is best for me at this particular instant’. This is a survival reflex, as in when a speeding automobile is coming straight at you, you’re VERY likely to go with the top-ranked choice, which is ‘GET OUT OF THE`WAY!!!’ Now, start adding more complexity to the situation - say that speeding auto is coming straight for you and a small child or elderly person who can’t get out of the way.

Now the sheet gets more interesting - you can still go with choice A and save yourself, possibly at the risk of the loss of two other peoples’ lives, OR you can say ‘I won’t do that’ and try to save the other lives, perhaps hoping you may still survive, but seriously lowering the chances of that. Why, you may ask, would a person try such a stunt - and there are several possible answers. One could be that the child and elderly person are the choiemaker’s own child and grandparent. Another is that using the incredible speed of our brain’s calculatory abilities (the same ones that allow us to catch a thrown ball) allow him to think he might just be able to pull this trick off. Heck, another valid option would be to save himself, even though the other two pedestrians get hit, but he makes certain that he has the car’s description, license plate, and maybe a good description of the driver and calls it in, so that this killer is rendered unable to continue their horrible ways!

These are, of course, the very most basic examples I could think of - life and our decisions are far more complex the vast majority of the time. But when presented with an array of choices, we often do NOT choose the obvious, perceived-as-self-preservatory one for a whole host of reasons and motives. ‘Free Will’ as such may be a more imprecise, and often morally-freighted term, but we do certainly have the ability to decide ‘I will not’, against the obvious choice A, and try for choice C, or F, or Z, even if they are far less likely in the short run to acomplish our goals - in fact, with careful planning and a little luck, those apparently odd choices may redound to our long term success.
 
I find it extremely brave to assume to assess what the brain does when faced with choices; (and as an aside, another reason to praise our Creator) since for me, to discuss what a persondoes with choices is daunting enough, I will stay there.
To continue using a metaphor that is know to most people, and loved by many, God had begun to teach us his ways in the garden when we exercised our free will and flouted his precice instructions.
Using the onrushing auto scenario: people are certainly not automated self-preservationists without religious instruction any more than they become automatically altruistic with such learning. That certainty is a basis for a belief in free will. The capricious actions of people don’t even have to include the possibility of heroism to qualify as products of free will. The fact that someone (God, perhaps?) could intervene doesn’t change the free will aspect of the scenario.
 
Scripture says that we are free to follow the rules or go to hell.

I don’t think that this is freedom. It is oppression.

Regards
DL
 
Scripture says that we are free to follow the rules or go to hell.

I don’t think that this is freedom. It is oppression.

Regards
DL
You are free to believe it or not. Don’t worry about going to hell, if you don’t want to. Your freedom is absolute. If you think that by not believing, you will go to hell, you are free to believe and act accordingly. What is the problem?
 
Scripture says that we are free to follow the rules or go to hell.

I don’t think that this is freedom. It is oppression.

Regards
DL
If you intentionally bang your head very hard on a brick wall and get seriously hurt, are the physical laws of the universe unfair? You reap the consequences of your actions (aka - choices). It is not God’s doing for anyone who goes to hell - they send themselves there … just like the guy banging his head on a wall also suffers the consequences of their action(s).

For me - freedom is living within the physical and spiritual laws - rather than going against them … just as I don’t intentionally drive a car on the wrong side of the highway … that isn’t freedom … thats stupidity!!! Freedom while driving a car is OBEYING the rules, driving on the correct side of the highway/road and actually getting to my destination. Freedom isn’t doing WHATEVER I WANT WHENEVER I WANT with the idea that there SHOULD NOT BE any negative consequences. That also is idiotic to think that way. Inherent in TRUE Freedom is making choices that are according to reality and the GOOD.
 
You are free to believe it or not. Don’t worry about going to hell, if you don’t want to. Your freedom is absoolute. If you think that by not believing, you will go to hell, you are free to believe and act accordingly. What is the problem?
I have no problem. Scripture says that God’s will is that all are to be saved. His will cannot be thwarted. That means that He would not need to create a hell because there are no lost souls to send there.

Many believers do not see this and think that God’s will has been thwarted. Impossible right?
 
I have no problem. Scripture says that God’s will is that all are to be saved. His will cannot be thwarted. That means that He would not need to create a hell because there are no lost souls to send there.

Many believers do not see this and think that God’s will has been thwarted. Impossible right?
He wills that all be saved. His will does not impose on our will. Otherwise we would not have a will. Your comments suggest that God is causing everything to happen in our universe … even the choices that we make. That is non-sense.
 
If you intentionally bang your head very hard on a brick wall and get seriously hurt, are the physical laws of the universe unfair? You reap the consequences of your actions (aka - choices). It is not God’s doing for anyone who goes to hell - they send themselves there … just like the guy banging his head on a wall also suffers the consequences of their action(s).

For me - freedom is living within the physical and spiritual laws - rather than going against them … just as I don’t intentionally drive a car on the wrong side of the highway … that isn’t freedom … thats stupidity!!! Freedom while driving a car is OBEYING the rules, driving on the correct side of the highway/road and actually getting to my destination. Freedom isn’t doing WHATEVER I WANT WHENEVER I WANT with the idea that there SHOULD NOT BE any negative consequences. That also is idiotic to think that way. Inherent in TRUE Freedom is making choices that are according to reality and the GOOD.
We seem to agree. We are only free to follow the rules or go to hell. This is not freedom.
 
For me - freedom is living within the physical and spiritual laws - rather than going against them … just as I don’t intentionally drive a car on the wrong side of the highway … that isn’t freedom … thats stupidity!!! Freedom while driving a car is OBEYING the rules, driving on the correct side of the highway/road and actually getting to my destination. Freedom isn’t doing WHATEVER I WANT WHENEVER I WANT with the idea that there SHOULD NOT BE any negative consequences. That also is idiotic to think that way. Inherent in TRUE Freedom is making choices that are according to reality and the GOOD.

I think that is well said. The idea of being free to make all choices without different consequences is nonsense. That is even true without adding any value to the choices or the consequences, so it can be discussed without moral implications, as people so often want to do, as if that really made them free.
 
We seem to agree. We are only free to follow the rules or go to hell. This is not freedom.
You totally miss the point and obviously have a much different understanding/definition of Freedom than I do.

Answer me this … if you drive on the wrong side of the Highway against oncoming traffic … is that an act of Freedom? Should you be able to do this without any negative consequences?
 
Where does it say to follow rules in Scripture. What rules are you speaking of?

Starting at Genesis, the first rule is to not eat of the tree of knowledge.

Explain then what you mean by freedom … what frees you and what oppresses you?
All laws or rules are permission and compulsion to discriminate against some sector of society.

All laws and rules then kill freedom of choice.

I am not saying that some of these rules and laws are not justified.
 
He wills that all be saved. His will does not impose on our will. Otherwise we would not have a will. Your comments suggest that God is causing everything to happen in our universe … even the choices that we make. That is non-sense.
God began as master of all things.

What % of all has He lost.
To lose any % would be back sliding and this is not allowed for God.
As it was in the begining, it shall be in the end.
 
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