How Free is our Free-Will?

[wintersnow]

I think our free will is as free as we want it to be. But if we want to choose God, what we choose must be different then if we do not choose him.

I agree for some they pay for their choices early and others later in life. I used to think that when we pay we were punished. Now I see it is just a different way of God getting our attention if we let him.

But free-will is always free. No one can take it from us. It is a gift from God.

 

[jkiernan56]

I think our free will is as free as we want it to be. But if we want to choose God, what we choose must be different then if we do not choose him.

I agree for some they pay for their choices early and others later in life. I used to think that when we pay we were punished. Now I see it is just a different way of God getting our attention if we let him.

But free-will is always free. No one can take it from us. It is a gift from God.

Question - does a person who has an addiction really possess a will that is totally free? Why then is it called an addiction? What is the relationship between addiction and exercising free will? Just questions I ask myself …

 

[Michael_David]

Question - does a person who has an addiction really possess a will that is totally free? Why then is it called an addiction? What is the relationship between addiction and exercising free will? Just questions I ask myself …

This is a grey area.

But I would say yes… insofar as the person ‘wants’ to quit, or never touch the stuff again.

And I would say no… insofar as the persons resolve does not hold-up when the thoughts or temptation is again there, and they again do it.

The vicious circle…

 

[jkiernan56]

This is a grey area.

But I would say yes… insofar as the person ‘wants’ to quit, or never touch the stuff again.

And I would say no… insofar as the persons resolve does not hold-up when the thoughts or temptation is again there, and they again do it.

The vicious circle…

so when they make a movement towards being free … exercising their free will towards freedom … which is their ultimate good … who is God … we become more free to make those kinds of choices wouldn’t you say?

And is the reverse also true? The more we exercise our free will towards what is not our ultimate good … which is God … the more our free will is weakened … and enslaved to the lower appetites … we become less free … would you say?

 

[Michael_David]

so when they make a movement towards being free … exercising their free will towards freedom … which is their ultimate good … who is God … we become more free to make those kinds of choices wouldn’t you say?

And is the reverse also true? The more we exercise our free will towards what is not our ultimate good … which is God … the more our free will is weakened … and enslaved to the lower appetites … we become less free … would you say?

Very well said! I’m in 100% agreement.

So, the free-will is alive and well at the start of the addiction… but becomes weaker the more that is done, to a point of no free-will left. Although I believe, there is a few tries by the will to ‘not die’ when the addiction gets so intense during it’s last stages, but if unheeded, or unaided, it’s quenched. It is in these final stages of the addiction you still see free-will trying to exert itself… so it is still there, in survival mode.

 

[wintersnow]

Question - does a person who has an addiction really possess a will that is totally free? Why then is it called an addiction? What is the relationship between addiction and exercising free will? Just questions I ask myself …

Yes Jk I know you do. But I will not say the temptation is not exhausting. But the reason I say yes is for two reasons. First God tells us in the bible, so we got to believe it. Secondly too many people have beat addictions.

The thing about addictions, trust me I have them too, is no matter how bad they are or how bad they are for you, you are still getting something you need or feel you need out of them. They always seem to give you the quick fix. It never lasts, but there is always something that it gives you, that keeps you comming back for more. Rather its good or bad its got you.

 

[jkiernan56]

Very well said! I’m in 100% agreement.

So, the free-will is alive and well at the start of the addiction… but becomes weaker the more that is done, to a point of no free-will left. Although I believe, there is a few tries by the will to ‘not die’ when the addiction gets so intense during it’s last stages, but if unheeded, or unaided, it’s quenched. It is in these final stages of the addiction you still see free-will trying to exert itself… so it is still there, in survival mode.

I have heard that sin is like a monkey-trap. It is like a cage with bars that has a coconut inside it. The monkey reaches into the cage and picks up the coconut but cannot pull it out of the cage … the bars are too close together … and now the monkey is in a quandry … to let go of the coconut or not … it wants the coconut … and even when the monkey realizes that it is in danger to be caught and the danger is near, the monkey does not want to let go of the coconut. The monkey holds onto the coconut until they have been put into a real cage by their captor. Sin is like the coconut … we have a hard time of letting it go because of the “good” that we think it gives us … and that exercise of the will towards this “good” makes us not free … only if we let go of the coconut by the exercise of our free will for a greater Good (which is God) are we truly free.

 

[Michael_David]

I have heard that sin is like a monkey-trap. It is like a cage with bars that has a coconut inside it. The monkey reaches into the cage and picks up the coconut but cannot pull it out of the cage … the bars are too close together … and now the monkey is in a quandry … to let go of the coconut or not … it wants the coconut … and even when the monkey realizes that it is in danger to be caught and the danger is near, the monkey does not want to let go of the coconut. The monkey holds onto the coconut until they have been put into a real cage by their captor. Sin is like the coconut … we have a hard time of letting it go because of the “good” that we think it gives us … and that exercise of the will towards this “good” makes us not free … only if we let go of the coconut by the exercise of our free will for a greater Good (which is God) are we truly free.

Again… agreed. You state it very well.

The difference is in the ‘will’ and the ‘free-will’… the will can choose any-which-way; the free-will can choose God or the other way. And even if the will is caught, the free-will seems to be there through the addiction. I relate the free-will to the First Commandment.

 

[jkiernan56]

Again… agreed. You state it very well.

The difference is in the ‘will’ and the ‘free-will’… the will can choose any-which-way; the free-will can choose God or the other way. And even if the will is caught, the free-will seems to be there through the addiction. I relate the free-will to the First Commandment.

So it would seem then that free-will is an absolute … we can always say yes or no to the perceived “good” … while freedom and how “free” we have become is a progression of acts. Just thinking out loud.

 

[Michael_David]

So it would seem then that free-will is an absolute … we can always say yes or no to the perceived “good” … while freedom and how “free” we have become is a progression of acts. Just thinking out loud.

Again, even though this was referenced to addiction, it is now referenced to things of God or things otherwise. With the progression of acts, the will is subordinate to the free-will as we say more yeses to the perceived Good; and the will can fight the free-will if that progression is the ‘otherwise’. The resolve (unkept).

Freedom gained… or freedom lost. It becomes an inner battle.

 

[jkiernan56]

Again, even though this was referenced to addiction, it is now referenced to things of God or things otherwise. With the progression of acts, the will is subordinate to the free-will as we say more yeses to the perceived Good; and the will can fight the free-will if that progression is the ‘otherwise’. The resolve (unkept).

Freedom gained… or freedom lost. It becomes an inner battle.

Yes, I know all about the battle … lol
I think this is known as the process of conversion … and we exercise our free will and order it to the “Good” … or we suffer the consequences … which is more pain in some manner or form … that God allows and sends to discipline … for our good.

 

[Michael_David]

Yes, I know all about the battle … lol
I think this is known as the process of conversion … and we exercise our free will and order it to the “Good” … or we suffer the consequences … which is more pain in some manner or form … that God allows and sends to discipline … for our good.

And here the ‘conscience’ comes into it. As you say, sometimes we just need a spanking… although His Mercy is there for the asking… at times, there are still consequences for the actions forgiven.

Are we spiritual beings living in a physical world… or physical beings living in a spiritual world???

 

[jkiernan56]

And here the ‘conscience’ comes into it. As you say, sometimes we just need a spanking… although His Mercy is there for the asking… at times, there are still consequences for the actions forgiven.

Are we spiritual beings living in a physical world… or physical beings living in a spiritual world???

Both - physical beings with a spirit … living in a physical world with spiritual realities as well.

 

[Michael_David]

Both - physical beings with a spirit … living in a physical world with spiritual realities as well.

Ah, but in which is the ‘priority’?

As I see it, our main mission is spiritual while using a physical means.

In the battle you also know about where is the priority set? Although resolve is weak.

 

[davidv]

Ah, but in which is the ‘priority’?

As I see it, our main mission is spiritual while using a physical means.

In the battle you also know about where is the priority set? Although resolve is weak.

There can be no priority. We are a united whole, body and spirit.

Whereever one is the other is also, except between physical death and resurrection. What is good for the spirit is good for body and vice verse.

Paul declares:

Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you…1 Cor 6:19

 

[Michael_David]

There can be no priority. We are a united whole, body and spirit.

Whereever one is the other is also, except between physical death and resurrection. What is good for the spirit is good for body and vice verse.

Paul declares:

Looking at our make up, you are correct.

Looking at addictions and the battle of the wills, it becomes a shedding of physical desires (mental desires) for the spiritual desires. In this reference we are into willed desires, rather then the human make up.

 

[davidv]

Looking at our make up, you are correct.

Looking at addictions and the battle of the wills, it becomes a shedding of physical desires (mental desires) for the spiritual desires. In this reference we are into willed desires, rather then the human make up.

Do you thinks all physical desires are bad? I do not.

Additions and battles within us are distortions to and disorders of the pure union that should exist in the person between body and spirit. Regaining this pure union, both within us and with God and others is the life long process I call conversion.

 

[Michael_David]

Do you thinks all physical desires are bad? I do not.

Additions and battles within us are distortions to and disorders of the pure union that should exist in the person between body and spirit. Regaining this pure union, both within us and with God and others is the life long process I call conversion.

Nor do I think all physical desires are bad.

Now you, jkiernan56 and I agree, that it is a process called ‘conversion’… of which addictions, as such, disrupt, hence the battle.

It’s like St. Paul saying what he wants to do, he doesn’t, and what he doesn’t want to do he does (something to that effect).

Normal sane living as compared to addictions brings in various aspects mostly dealing with intensity, rather then things.

 

[jkiernan56]

Normal sane living as compared to addictions brings in various aspects mostly dealing with intensity, rather then things.

Michael, can you elaborate on this? The differences between normal sane living and addictions …

Even in normal sane living, wouldn’t you agree that we are constantly beset by concupisence? life is a BEACH … lol

what was that saying about "take my yoke … my way is easy and my burden light?

 

[taylor007]

I have heard that sin is like a monkey-trap. It is like a cage with bars that has a coconut inside it. The monkey reaches into the cage and picks up the coconut but cannot pull it out of the cage … the bars are too close together … and now the monkey is in a quandry … to let go of the coconut or not … it wants the coconut … and even when the monkey realizes that it is in danger to be caught and the danger is near, the monkey does not want to let go of the coconut. The monkey holds onto the coconut until they have been put into a real cage by their captor. Sin is like the coconut … we have a hard time of letting it go because of the “good” that we think it gives us … and that exercise of the will towards this “good” makes us not free … only if we let go of the coconut by the exercise of our free will for a greater Good (which is God) are we truly free.

hats off,guys :tiphat: good piece of work.it had a lot of my questions answered.