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gurneyhalleck1
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N apologies necessary, manual! I enjoy your posts and thoughts. God bless, friend.
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hosemonkey
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hosemonkey
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Bluegoat
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Any Anglican who says there is no crises is being disengenuous. There is a huge crises. Right now there is a meeting of Primates (national Bishops) in the Anglican Communion that mmany primates have refused to attend. The Episcopal Church has been threatened with non-voting, observer status within the communion. Many parishes and even diocese are breaking off in the West, especially NA, or looking for outside episcoplal oversight.
These things are a big deal.
What are the problems. There may be a few things.
One I think is that the things that are meant to hold the communion together ultimately have rather blunt teeth. The Communion has always allowed a lot of variation in some areas of belief. The tendency is to be very forgiving or flexible in this. When worldview that are ultimately not compatible came up, they were not immediately recognized, probably because of this training to allow as much diversity as possible rather than search for orthodoxy. (This is a perhaps ultimately part of Anglicanisms Western heritage - what is the least think that is acceptable, rather than what is the fullness of the faith.)
There has always been a tension, as gurney pointed out, between more Protestant ideas and Catholic ones in Anglicanism. But in the past, even the
Catholicswere able to see the Protestant Anglicans as having validity, because the low church Anglicans still were very attached to a strict Biblical Christianity. That stopped them from really going outside what the catholics could consider as acceptable, (and vice versa really). But once things like women`s ordination, or lay presidency arrived, then that failed. More catholic Anglicans cannot support that.And so it comes down in the end in a real way to the view of scripture. An understanding of scripture as simple an inspired, but not an authoritative document. Really a loss of confidence - due largely to Higher Criticism - in it`s ability to teach truth - allowed factions within Anglicanism to go outside of what was acceptable to the other factions.
This was followed by changes in the form of the liturgy, following the Catholic model. In fact, the embracing of the attempt to bring the liturgy back to its primitive forms was probably an attempt to find the sure foundation that had been lost in Scripture. But it probably made the problem worse, because the new liturgies were not up to the same standard doctrinally or didactically, and not all Anglicans accepted the new forms, and the new forms allowed substantial variation - so different Anglicans could be using substantially different forms of the liturgy. (Before, even where they were stylistically diverse, the text of the liturgy was very similar, and it was the primary lens for Anglican thought on dogma and doctrine. It is no longer able to serve that function.)
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Bluegoat
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PS - I just have to apologize for my messy post - I am on my husband
s lap top and I keep pushing the wrong keys and cant get some of them to do what I want.
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Perhaps since I am not involved on a national level with the Anglican communion…just on the local level as an observer and attender once in a while with my boss to his Episcopal parish and regional conference…(I took some workshops on how to “write” icons and a class on making “prayer beads/rosary”) the “crisis” is occuring among the more “conservative” element in TEC…the moderate and “liberal” Episcopalians that I have spoken to are more concerned with “property” battles than theological ones.
They are more concerned at the expense the minority could cause the local parish to protect the church building from “conservative” take over. Since in the US the buildings are not owned by the parish alone but also on a national level with TEC…so far…those “Anglican” communities that have formed have had to find new accommodations…and many of them…here in Oregon…have “folded” as they do not have enough “steam” to stay open…and most of the “conservative” elements making the loudest noises aren’t willing to drive an hour + to Meeting when they are use to driving 10-15 mins to their local parish.
The “crisis” is “kept alive” by the “conservative” elements…not the well run parishes that while the wardens and trustees may not see eye to eye on same sex marriage or female ordinations…have chosen to remain together and work out their differences.
It would be interesting to get figures together on how large the so called “exodus to Rome” really is withing the AC and TEC…from my own observation…the local parish I visit with my boss…out of 1000 parishoners…lost maybe less than 10 to went to form an “Anglican” meeting with like minded souls…only to return in 6 months as the new church venture failed…at the regional level…that seems to be occuring more…Anglican parishes open…only to close down the road as there aren’t enough people to support it…they meet in schools or fellowship halls as they have no “meeting house.”
Those who hold conservative views and beliefs MAY consider what is happening a “crisis”…but at the local level…the “crisis” is happening to the “conservative Anglicans”…not the established parishes.
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Bluegoat
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So they don
t think it is a crises when all these congregations are splitting up, or when Anglicans are spending large amounts of money to fight legal battles, or when the national church is trying to redefine its role to claim ownership of diocese and parishes, or when a national church is in danger of being sent out of the Communion because they dont care what the rest of the Anglican world thinks, or the actual structure of the Communion is being challenged, or when the presiding bishop refuses even to sell churches they dont want to conservatives`
The fact that liberal Episcopalians are comfortable with all this and only worried about property issues speaks to the crises, not against it.
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No that’s not what I am saying at all…but you know that…TEC is not overly concerned about the “mass exodus” being spoken of…there is no “mass exodus”…there are many conservatives who are trying their best to stake a claim on property…but the courts do not determine doctrinal issues…if the wardens and trustees of TEC are not “releasing” property…the property stays in the hands of TEC…it is a “nusance”…but not a “crisis”…the “crises” is more from the “conservative” side as they are the ones that have to seek new accommodations.So they dont think it is a crises when all these congregations are splitting up, or when Anglicans are spending large amounts of money to fight legal battles, or when the national church is trying to redefine its role to claim ownership of diocese and parishes, or when a national church is in danger of being sent out of the Communion because they dont care what the rest of the Anglican world thinks, or the actual structure of the Communion is being challenged, or when the presiding bishop refuses even to sell churches they dont want toconservatives`
The fact that liberal Episcopalians are comfortable with all this and only worried about property issues speaks to the crises, not against it.
From my observations, the leadership of TEC are willing to discuss any and all issues with the “Anglicans”…but they will not be bullied to 'tow the line" from an outside source.
According to TEC conferences I have attended…the parishes having difficulty with the “conservative” element simply are not that many…and it is the “conservative” element that is claiming the TEC is in “crisis”.
++Katharine Jefferts Schori has made the commitment to keep TEC together…“divorce is not an option”…but she cannot prevent those who wish to press their claim from doing so…TEC is alive and well…very few “Anglican” parishes survive over a year or so…at least those Anglicans who have left TEC in my area…find their way back or become Lutheran or Catholic.
TEC is not “comfortable”…but they are not “in crisis” either…but they will not compromise their beliefs…the “liberals” are willing to make “accommodations” for the “conservatives”…but the reverse does not seem to be true…at least from my ‘outsider’ observations.
“All these congregations” aren’t “splitting up”…as stated…maybe 10 conservatives left the local parish of 1000 to start a new church venture with other conservative believers from parishes…but the new 'conservative parish" folded in just over a year…not enough financial support to keep it open.
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gurneyhalleck1
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I disagree with this post top to bottom. Katharine Schiori has been disengenuous from the get-go and has alienated and manipulated the machinery of the presiding bishop’s office to try and create a “national church” that never, in fact, existed. She has centralized things to a high degree, has bullied the conservative bishops in a myriad of ways (just ask Bishop John-David Schofield or Jack Iker!), has been the queen of lawsuits, has allowed and supported more sinful and heterodox sexual views and blank-check theology, the Anaheim fiascos, attendance numbers have plumeted despite what you said, financial situation is dire as she has channelled most of the funds into punishing and blasting Anglican conservatives trying to swipe their property from out of under them, the list goes on and on. TEC has also alienated themselves from the rest of the Anglican Communion, has brought this crisis on themselves (honestly I’m disappointed and shocked it took this long for Iker, Schofield, Duncan, and the rest to wake up and bail!), and has done little if anything to carry the Great Commission and bring the Gospel to the masses. Instead they have focused on re-writing orthodoxy and dogging break-away Anglicans. Even “Bishop” Jerry Lamb in Stockton said openly in an article about six months ago that Schiori told him that if they “win back” any ACNA Anglican property, if they can’t staff and maintain it, SELL IT and let it become retail property before they sell it back to conservative Anglicans.
You might want to read up on Schiori, TEC, and really listen to the conservative side more, take in some VirtueOnline, and consider what Schiori has done to alienate and divide and anger rather than lead, shepherd, and strengthen her flock. But ultimately this problem boils down to one weakness in Anglicanism itself that has always troubled me deeply—women’s ordination. Schiori shouldn’t be in power period.
You might want to read up on Schiori, TEC, and really listen to the conservative side more, take in some VirtueOnline, and consider what Schiori has done to alienate and divide and anger rather than lead, shepherd, and strengthen her flock. But ultimately this problem boils down to one weakness in Anglicanism itself that has always troubled me deeply—women’s ordination. Schiori shouldn’t be in power period.
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GKC
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In those parishes where the legal title is held in the name of the parish, and has been, in some cases, since before there was a formal Episcopal Church in this country, how do you suppose TEC can claim ownership (and there is a way, be it ever so devious)?
The point of the crisis is not directly related to the response of the current Episcopalians to Anglicanorum Coetibus. The crisis predates that by 25 years and more, and is more obviously seen in the departure of four dioceses, in toto, from TEC, within the past few years, and, further back, with the exodus of those forming the Anglican Continuum. The point driving the issue is both doctrinal and ecclesiological. The Episcopal Church has been radically restructured, in a number of ways (not speaking here of doctrine, but ecclesiology), primarily in the invention of a hierarchical role for the office of presiding bishop, and on the shoving into the memory hole of the fact that, since its inception, TEC has been organized at the diocese level; that is, within his diocese, an Ordinary has supreme authority. These points have been undermined by a top-down power grab, running back to around 1970. It was not a democratic process, nor an open one.
And this ignores the doctrinal issues, not likely to weigh heavily upon you.
Part of your problem in understanding this is a probable lack of exposure to the history (not that I mean that such exposure would make you more sympathetic to the struggle). But looking at your bosses’ parish, and thinking you are understanding either the national church status, or the Communion as a whole, is like concentrating on one blue dot and thinking you can comprehend and describe a Seurat painting.
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gurney is correct. But while doctrinally, WO is a huge part of the problem, politically, within TEC (and this is a ecclesiastical political struggle), her sex is not relevant. Any number of males would have done the same.
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Bluegoat
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The average parishioner probably doesn`t feel the weight of what is going on in many cases. But that does not mean that it is not serious. It is not just the conservatives that are having financial troubles, and TEC is not only losing people through splits, but also by them bleeding away. There are a lot of parish churches closing, and that is very much related to the problems in TEC.
They also probably don`t feel the weight of changes to the structure of TEC itself - which was never meant to be so focused on the national church level - nor with the prospect of being relegated to observer only status. But again - those are pretty significant.
On a number of levels this speaks to what it means to be an Episcopalian or an Anglican - it is a pretty fundamental change, even if one side of the argument doesn
They also probably don`t feel the weight of changes to the structure of TEC itself - which was never meant to be so focused on the national church level - nor with the prospect of being relegated to observer only status. But again - those are pretty significant.
On a number of levels this speaks to what it means to be an Episcopalian or an Anglican - it is a pretty fundamental change, even if one side of the argument doesn
t realize it, or doesnt care.
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Bluegoat
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Yes, a male candidate could have been even worse, who knows. When our current primate was chosen, looking at the candidates, I was left in the odd position of thinking that of them all, the female candidate would be the most orthodox, and even the most sympathetic to those who have issues with women
s ordination. I was glad I didnt have to vote on it.
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nhylan
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I would honestly be surprised if the Episcopal church had lost a serious number of butts in the seats if you will the next time someone gets to counting. In the northeast in particular many many parishes have been growing. In my diocese 60% of parish’s are experiencing growth of more than 10% a year. This is largely because of the abuse problem in the Roman Catholic Church. Bishop Tom was at our parish recently and described the influx as “droves of people.”
I have to disagree with most of the posters who say there is a major crisis. I think there is a crisis but it is one of a small but loud minority. There is a macro crisis but I believe this will simply fade over time rather than come to a head and some sort of cataclysmic schism. You might see a future communion which is two sides of the same coin with ++Cantaur at the center binding it all together. In many ways this has increased the importance of the role of the ABC i think. Of course I could be wrong but only time will tell.
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gurneyhalleck1
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I give you right to it, without let or hindrance, in perpetuity, gratis.Spong comes to mind. But consider that the liberal mentality that gave birth to WO gave birth to these irrational and heterodox decisions that have brought down the TEC.
BTW, I used “history is complicated” on my last post and gave you credit. I know that phrase is copyrighted!
And I agree.
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tomarin
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How do you Anglicans and ex-Anglicans who are steeped in the history of it regard the decision to allow birth control in the 1920’s? That’s often pointed to as a turning point, by Catholics at least. Is that also a liberal turning point down the slippery slope, as women’s ordination is said to be?Spong comes to mind. But consider that the liberal mentality that gave birth to WO gave birth to these irrational and heterodox decisions that have brought down the TEC.
BTW, I used “history is complicated” on my last post and gave you credit. I know that phrase is copyrighted!
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