How has the Anglican Communion gone wrong?

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Trying to comprehend how, why, and when the Anglican Communion went wrong is subject to a vast body of theories. A Catholic might say that the Anglicans first went wrong when they left Mother Church in the 16th Century for all the wrong reasons and steadily became a Calvinist body only to reinvent part of herself as anglo-catholic in the
19th Century. A lack of validity and proper authority was the beginning of the end from this vantage point. A Catholic could also argue that the Elizabethan Compromise trying to join two things that never should be joined–Calvinism and Catholicism, was the beginning. Some more Anglican-sympathetic in Catholic circles might say 1930’s Lambeth Conference and its liberalization of contraception was the beginning.

Anglicans would focus more on the 1960’s and the moral/societal uphevals that ensued. The women’s movement, gay rights crusades, the new sexuality/sexual revolution, and re-shuffling of our values affected Anglican navigation into scary, shark-infested waters. Some might say the 79 Prayer Book (although I find that the least compelling) and some might speculate women’s ordination only, on and on.

I think the very structure and nature of Anglicanism itself is the ultimate undoing of Anglicanism. It started off a political animal, is based not on a firm Rock but rather compromise, it is too vague in theology, has too many holes to fill in, started in schism so permitted more, has heroes that are utterly divergent (i.e. Cranmer/Ridley vs. Newman/Pusey/ and Hooker/Andrewes), is based on worship (the prayer book is for worship, not catechesis, theology, morality, or anything else) and not organized around a set of principles that are hard and fast and cogent, etc.

When ten Anglicans can look at the Anglican church and claim they see 10 different things, a church turns into a Rorschach Ink Blot test. One says “I see Evangelical” another “I see hardcore Calvinist Evangelical” and another says “I see Orthodoxy and Catholicism with no pope or metropolitan” and that spelled trouble long ago.

Anglicanism, sadly, has become a stepping stone, a waiting room, on the way to two schools of thought rather than a place to stay. Many go on to become Catholics or Orthodox. The other end of the spectrum go on to become Reformed or Lutheran or Mega Church evangelicals. It has become a waiting station. I notice a lot of Anglicans online or even on this CAF site see Anglicanism as an “I’m Anglican FOR NOW” type of thing. That speaks volumes about the state of affairs it has been in and how Anglicanism as seen with regard to reputation for theological seriousness these days. It’s sad. 😦
 
Gurneyhalleck1,
Concerning the Friends Fellowship, it may not quite be an issue of authority with the friends as it is with us due to their understanding of Jesus’s message. Since they lack lack Apostolic Succession their understanding of Authority won’t be the same. They could in essence see the scriptures through the Friends lens and thus learn a different understanding of it than say we would have.
Peace be with you
gmcbroom
 
David, we might not always agree but I sure appreciate, as a Greek Orthodox, your constant charity to the Catholic Church and open mind. You have a very ecumenical and respectful view of Catholicism and the Popes. You’d make a great Catholic! Think it over, brother! 🙂
The Anglican Church was formed when Henry VIII decided to remove Papal Authority from the Church of England. To make this story short, what happened to this Church was a loss of Authority and Disclipline within herself. Every Diocese in the Anglican Communion realistically can act on its own. There is no Authority from the top so in essence every diocese is its own boss. The Angican Communion is largely a loose confederation of dioceses throughout the world. That been said you can say now that since there is no authority above like for instance the Pope in Rome for the Catholics or the Ecumenical Patriarch of the East for the Orthodox, this leaves any disclipline in the Anglican Church pretty well naught. Any Diocese can do anything it wants without any interference or warnings from another diocese. There is no organize Authority within the Anglican Communion. This creates problems when for instance 1 diocese goes ahead to ordain women or goes ahead to bless same-sex unions. The Anglican Communion has now been split up over issues such as this. While there is no formal shcishms on paper there is of course enormous amounts of people leaving the Church of England, many going back to the Church of Rome or to join the Orthodox Church. Some have created a seperate Anglican Communion in line to the traditional Anglicanism they have been brought up by. In this 3rd group of people we see alot of these AngloCatholic Communions entering the Church of Rome not only as individuals but as whole Parishes as well. Even among the Orthodox there was plenty of Anglican Churches joining the Anthiochian Rite and this Orthodox Church decided to create a seperate Western Rite within herself to accomadate all these Anglicans and their respective Parishes. They even changed some of the wording of the Book of Common Prayer so that these new " Orthodox " can still practice their devotions in line with the Orthodox Church they are now in Communion with. It is somewhat similar to Benedict’s XVI gestures to Anglicans who wish to retain their Anglican practice while they become full members of the Church of Rome. Anglicans while professing Apostolic orders have lost that when they started this inventative notion to ordain women. Whatever Apostolic orders they have retained since the Reformation days went down the drain once they began to ordain women. Now they can be classified as a full fledge Protestant Church. The reality of no disclipline and no authority in any Church will always bring that Church down. For how can God work with any Church that has no authority and disclipline within herself? He cannot. This is what you are seeing when a Church like the Anglicans are behaving like when they have no one to disclipline them.
 
Hello Friend Publisher.
I have a question it’ll be quick so I don’t accidentally derail the thread. As you probably know the Catholic,Orthodox, Anglican and others put a certain amount of weight to the traditions and scriptures we use so ritual is somewhat important a key one is the eucharist or communion. Now all faiths have some traditions to help keep the core values and tenets going. Is the Friend movement primarily based on Jesus’s two greatest commandments (paraphrased badly sorry) to Love God first and to Love one another as you love yourself instead of say the eucharist? In a way if thats the case your group could be seen as the ones Jesus was talking about when he said to leave them alone as those that drive out demons in his name won’t speak ill of me. I’m just curious.
Peace be with you
gmcbroom
I’ll start another thread to answer you…
 
Hi gmc,
I agree that they see through that lens and lack apostolic succession, but so do Lutherans and arguably Anglicans, etc. but they all respect the Great Councils, orthodox Christological views, reject moral relativism to some degree, don’t see Christianity as an evolving understanding by and large. Following individual “lights” is just totally not grounded in any history of Christianity; I would be concerned if I were a Quaker, that this is innovative, totally out of sync with Scripture, Tradition, and Reason (to employ an Anglican cliche :)) After Pentecost in the Scriptures, the “Light” or Holy Spirit, does not pull Christians to different truths or views, but they rather meet at the Council of Jerusalem and come to terms with the truth. With Nicaea and the other councils, the Holy Spirit continues to guide and illuminate. The Holy Spirit doesn’t function as a contradictory force that leads different folks to different places. There is no “your light” and “my light.” This isn’t remotely Christian IMO.
Gurneyhalleck1,
Concerning the Friends Fellowship, it may not quite be an issue of authority with the friends as it is with us due to their understanding of Jesus’s message. Since they lack lack Apostolic Succession their understanding of Authority won’t be the same. They could in essence see the scriptures through the Friends lens and thus learn a different understanding of it than say we would have.
Peace be with you
gmcbroom
 
Friend Publisher (I like the sound of it, so I’m using it! :)), I would just ask, does Jesus come to the Earth, become Incarnate, give us the Gospel (that is very hard to follow!) and die for our sins on the Cross all to meet our needs? Is Christianity about meeting our needs or meeting the needs of God? God wants our obedience, worship, devotion, and morality in line with His divine will. I cannot find anything in the NT or otherwise that says Christ wants to meet out needs or have us change with the times to make conveniences for us?
This exchange between u and Pub reminds me of listening to someone claim that if the bones of Jesus were found tommorow it wouldn’t change his faith one bit. A perceptive response was made by another that the effect on his (some scholar I dont remember who) faith wasn’t really relevant but rather would Peter or Paul’s faith have been changed. This is really the only relevant question to be asked in this situation.
 
What evidence do you have that the “new sexuality” of cohabitation, gay sex, in vitro solo parenting, “transgender” cross-dressing, and swinging/couple-swapping is “more in line with the way God bould have us live?” I read the OT and NT and sure don’t see that. So when Jesus forbade divorce except in adultery/porneia situations, is the Quaker implication that Jesus was just ill-informed or not culturally-developed yet? I’m lost with that line of thinking.

Also, this “I follow my light, you follow yours” seems, and gosh I hate to employ an overused phrase at the risk of it becoming cliche, to be the ultimate zenith of moral relativism?

Who gave the Friends the authority to create their own “lights” and the ability to just forsake the first millenium and a half of Christian history and create an individualist approach? How is it logical? I’m just curious?
Friends beleive that the “ethics” we embrace must speak to the human condition in mercy and love.

While most if not all Friends are against divorce, we see the human frailty all too often. Those Meetings in which Friends end up in divoce, the Meeting seeks to counsel the couple to seek reconcilliation and healing. Gone is the day where we “read out of meeting” those who do not live up to the communities expectations…we understand that “sin” sometimes requires a “cross”…but each person must be free to follow God and the Light as they are led…coupled with seeking to understand our responsibility through the Meeting.

Jesus was a product of his time…he was completely human…“he emptied himself, taking the form of a servant…” What we have recorded in the NT as the words of Christ are those first Christians understanding and interpretation of the life of Jesus of Nazareth.

We have a living faith…the Living Christ is in our midst to teach His People Himself…“We live in that virtue and power of life of which the apostles and prophets lived…” We seek to understand the continuing revelation of God in our lives. We seek to follow the Risen Christ in our midst…and bear the responsibility of being His Body in this world as His People…

Human sexuality as understood today was unknown 2000 years ago…just as we now know “demons” don’t cause sickness and “sin” is not punished by deformities…so we also recognize that human sexuality and it’s expression is vast. God in His Infinite Diversity has made us very complex creatures…we see responsible expressions of human sexuality and benign…“In Christ there is neither male nor female…bond nor free…gay or straight.”

Same sex relationships have the capacity, just as opposite sex relationships, to exist in covenant relationship with God and one another…I realize that is not your understanding…but I’m ok with the differences as I seek to “speak to that of God” within you and seek to understand your experience with the Eternal.

Each of us shares in the Priesthood of Christ…each of us must share in His Incarnation in our world. Our authority rests not on ‘correct beleif’ but “truthful living in the Light”. We share His life…we seek His instruction and teaching direct from His Presence in our Midst…we have been at odds with most who call themselves “Christians” for almost 500 years…I’m ok with you and I disagreeing…but I will not impose my own limitited understanding.

If human sexuality in many of it’s diverse expressions are “authentic” ways of being human…which we beleive they are…then we must learn to incorporate such understanding into our lives. We as a body do not believe same sex relationships are out of the will of God. It is not your understanding…but we are content to place ourselves into God’s Hands…but we will speak to the Light of God in others the best we can…and follow this Light Within as we share the Life and Love of God to those we meet.

I read the OT and NT in light of their cultural and time bound expressions…scripture is not psycology texts, sexuality texts nor are they science texts…they are very human writings that seek to share the authors experience with God as He moves in their lives…

We do not “hang our hat” on those who have gone before us…each Friend must decide how to live in the Light…it is a weighty thing…no Friend is able to say…“My church said I must beleive thus…or my pastor told me such and such and I am bound to believe it becasue he has authority over me.”. God and God alone has religious authority and each of us must by necessity experience God for ourselves…and in our experience with God…our gay, lesbian, transgendered brothers and sisters walk this Journey with us.

While we do not share in your definition of “moral relativism”…you certainly must follow the Light as you see fit…we will follow the Light and One Day we will reach consensus.
 
Gurneyhalleck1,
Concerning the Friends Fellowship, it may not quite be an issue of authority with the friends as it is with us due to their understanding of Jesus’s message. Since they lack lack Apostolic Succession their understanding of Authority won’t be the same. They could in essence see the scriptures through the Friends lens and thus learn a different understanding of it than say we would have.
Peace be with you
gmcbroom
You cannot throw away 15 centuries of Christian teachings and Order and then try to develope your own as if Christianity is only beginning now for you. Anglicans did that. They had Apostolic teaching but threw it out with something in the middle. I can understand other groups of christians who never had Apostolic orders but for the Anglicans this is not so. They are responsible towards their own 15 centuries of Catholicism and now after 15 centuries of this Catholic order they are going to redefine it. It is a wonder that they kept this so long. Now they are reeling from the effects of their seperation of that Order and Discipline. But you know after 5 centuries of Protestant teachings within a Church that had retained Apostolic priesthood you can pretty well understand their own faults. Anglicans did lose their touch with their own reality to the divine through their own priesthood or more exaltly to their own understanding to that priesthood. It has cost them. Had they retained the excellent teaching in regards to the priesthood as taught in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches they will probably have defended it more. Instead they thought lightly of it and have lost whatever they have now especially with the ordination of women.
 
You cannot throw away 15 centuries of Christian teachings and Order and then try to develope your own as if Christianity is only beginning now for you. Anglicans did that. They had Apostolic teaching but threw it out with something in the middle. I can understand other groups of christians who never had Apostolic orders but for the Anglicans this is not so. They are responsible towards their own 15 centuries of Catholicism and now after 15 centuries of this Catholic order they are going to redefine it. It is a wonder that they kept this so long. Now they are reeling from the effects of their seperation of that Order and Discipline. But you know after 5 centuries of Protestant teachings within a Church that had retained Apostolic priesthood you can pretty well understand their own faults. Anglicans did lose their touch with their own reality to the divine through their own priesthood or more exaltly to their own understanding to that priesthood. It has cost them. Had they retained the excellent teaching in regards to the priesthood as taught in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches they will probably have defended it more. Instead they thought lightly of it and have lost whatever they have now especially with the ordination of women.
Agreed one cannot throw away 15 centuries…but neither can we forget…we live in the here and how…not 15 centuries ago…let us learn from those 15 centuries…then learn to listen and follow Christ TODAY. He is our Present Teacher of which the scriptures witness.
 
The challenge that Friends have…is to honor that of God in those we do not agree with…and seek to find reconciliation in our diversity.
 
David, we might not always agree but I sure appreciate, as a Greek Orthodox, your constant charity to the Catholic Church and open mind. You have a very ecumenical and respectful view of Catholicism and the Popes. You’d make a great Catholic! Think it over, brother! 🙂
Thank you for your kind words as well. I never was told that I can be a great Catholic although my experiences with Catholics led them to believe I was a Catholic. Many a times I even heard them say " Are you a Catholic priest? " I usually smile when I hear them say that and when I tell them I am Greek Orthodox they have many questions why does a Greek Orthodox know so much about them. To be honest I grew up in a Catholic setting for almost 30+ years so I got a head start than most. I really enjoy and love the Catholic Way. In some respects my orientation is largely more on the Catholic side. While I am a fully fledge Orthodox I only studied and experienced my Orthodox way only in the last 15 years. I guess you can say I am both Catholic and Orthodox inside, like a combo! You know when you go to fast food restaurant and they will always say to you " want that in a combo ? " So that is what I am. A combo. With both the teachings of the Catholic and Orthodox Church inside me. I will like to enter the Catholic Church if it is God’s Will if I find someone to marry within the Catholic Church. I am looking for a devout girl so if she finds me or I find her and we both want to marry I will not hestitate to marry her and we can both go to the Catholic Church. I am interested in 1 girl now, a Catholic girl who is religious and I am just waiting for an opportunity to meet with her. It is a bit complicated but I have made great strides and hopefully will be able to see her soon. Keep me in your prayers. You seem to be a fighter for the Truth. Keep it up! Your picture of Star Trek’s Captain Picard must be a favourite. I am also a fan of Star Trek. My best series was Picard’s. Kirk’s and Captain JaneWay.
 
Hi sims,
So is your point here that I can talk until I’m blue in the face and I’m basically talking to cinderblock wasting my time? LOL 😛
This exchange between u and Pub reminds me of listening to someone claim that if the bones of Jesus were found tommorow it wouldn’t change his faith one bit. A perceptive response was made by another that the effect on his (some scholar I dont remember who) faith wasn’t really relevant but rather would Peter or Paul’s faith have been changed. This is really the only relevant question to be asked in this situation.
 
Hi sims,
So is your point here that I can talk until I’m blue in the face and I’m basically talking to cinderblock wasting my time? LOL 😛
Seeking understanding and/or reconcilliation is never an easy task…and in the experience of Friends, can take years and years of dialog before even a small consensus can be reached…but the dialog is always worth it…if only to seek to understand one another’s faith journey and life in Christ.
 
Thanks, David. Actually the picture is of Gurney Halleck from the movie, “Dune,” my online monicker. I’m a big Dune fan (I’ve taken some hits for that lately! :eek::p) but coincidentally I’m a big Star Trek geek. I’ve met and have autographs from many of the original and Next Generation cast. I’ve met a lot of those folks, many now passed on. I’m a tremendous Trekkie nerd :cool:😛 Don’t wait to get married to become Catholic, brother. Take the plunge now! 👍🙂 My wife is from the Philippines and she and I met totally by accident online! If you’d have told me that I’d meet my wife online across the Pacific Ocean, I’d have said you must be nuts. But at age 22 I did. We got married when I was 23. We’re coming up on 12 years of marriage. She’s the love of my life. Best thing that ever happened to me in this life alongside my three kids that came from our great love. She’s amazing. You have to do what you think is right and believe in your relationship for sure. I had people at the school I was working at back then telling me I was making a big mistake, my wife was just a gold-digging citizenship hunter, that filipinos are horrible and unfaithful and terrible folks, you name it. I heard it all and just told those folks to hit the bricks and followed my heart. The truth be known, my wife always thought she’d live in the Philippines and had a good job, a TON of friends, and coming to the US wasn’t her life’s ambition. She came because we fell in love and the relationship we’ve had is something else. Good luck with your endeavors for love and search to grow closer to Christ. I’m not a perfect Catholic either. I struggle a lot actually but I’m trying. With the help of the Holy Spirit, I feel I’m making some progress. I’m sure my Anglican and Orthodox buddies on here think it’s a step in the wrong direction but hey, I gotta be me! as the tune goes! 😛
Thank you for your kind words as well. I never was told that I can be a great Catholic although my experiences with Catholics led them to believe I was a Catholic. Many a times I even heard them say " Are you a Catholic priest? " I usually smile when I hear them say that and when I tell them I am Greek Orthodox they have many questions why does a Greek Orthodox know so much about them. To be honest I grew up in a Catholic setting for almost 30+ years so I got a head start than most. I really enjoy and love the Catholic Way. In some respects my orientation is largely more on the Catholic side. While I am a fully fledge Orthodox I only studied and experienced my Orthodox way only in the last 15 years. I guess you can say I am both Catholic and Orthodox inside, like a combo! You know when you go to fast food restaurant and they will always say to you " want that in a combo ? " So that is what I am. A combo. With both the teachings of the Catholic and Orthodox Church inside me. I will like to enter the Catholic Church if it is God’s Will if I find someone to marry within the Catholic Church. I am looking for a devout girl so if she finds me or I find her and we both want to marry I will not hestitate to marry her and we can both go to the Catholic Church. I am interested in 1 girl now, a Catholic girl who is religious and I am just waiting for an opportunity to meet with her. It is a bit complicated but I have made great strides and hopefully will be able to see her soon. Keep me in your prayers. You seem to be a fighter for the Truth. Keep it up! Your picture of Star Trek’s Captain Picard must be a favourite. I am also a fan of Star Trek. My best series was Picard’s. Kirk’s and Captain JaneWay.
 
No doubt, I see the connection within the Anglican communion. What I am addressing relates to the issue of WO itself on a higher level. This is because outside of Anglicanism, these problems do not exist even with women being ordained. It has alot to do with the ethos of those who are pushing for WO. In Pentecostalism, its was the immediate return of Christ, that Christ would pour out his spirit upon all flesh (male and female). In other words, the need to preach the Gospel was so great that ordaination to the ministry transcended gender.
I am not sure I follow this post. Within orthodox Anglicanism, as in all aspects of orthodox Catholicism, no such thing as WO validly exists. Outside the Catholic understanding, certainly there are females who serve in clerical functions, but none, within or without Catholicism, broadly considered (that is, as an Anglican does it) are ordained, in the sense discussed here.

GKC
 
Hi sims,
So is your point here that I can talk until I’m blue in the face and I’m basically talking to cinderblock wasting my time? LOL 😛
no no not wasting your time. I just find it interesting how some use the process of historical reconstruction that does away with the narrative framework of the canonical gospels and most of their contents as “unhistorical” and then reconfigures bits and pieces within an alternative framework and passes that off as a living faith that is healthy and constantly reinterpreting itself for those so enlightened to follow Christ. This IMO presupposes that the meaning the Gospels give to Jesus are time conditioned at minimum and wrong at worst. This gives a whole new meaning to “personal Jesus”.
 
When ten Anglicans can look at the Anglican church and claim they see 10 different things, a church turns into a Rorschach Ink Blot test. One says “I see Evangelical” another “I see hardcore Calvinist Evangelical” and another says “I see Orthodoxy and Catholicism with no pope or metropolitan” and that spelled trouble long ago.

Anglicanism, sadly, has become a stepping stone, a waiting room, on the way to two schools of thought rather than a place to stay. Many go on to become Catholics or Orthodox. The other end of the spectrum go on to become Reformed or Lutheran or Mega Church evangelicals. It has become a waiting station. I notice a lot of Anglicans online or even on this CAF site see Anglicanism as an “I’m Anglican FOR NOW” type of thing. That speaks volumes about the state of affairs it has been in and how Anglicanism as seen with regard to reputation for theological seriousness these days. It’s sad. 😦
Sadly there is alot of truth here. My rector describes it as the Catholic faith, pre-schism, given in reformed language. I like his definition, but I see your point, especially in terms of the waiting room concept. I certainly relate to that in my own journey-stuck between Catholicism, Orthodoxy and Evangelicalism. But it also provides the right place for those of us who are never able to decide which way to go in that spectrum.
 
I hear ya. And the last statement you make is quite poignant. I have found the Anglican church as a good place to find some rest amidst all my struggles with the whole “am I Catholic or not?” stuff.

and it is a struggle. On a daily basis I have to basically tell myself to be motivated. It’s hard. I really loved my Anglican parish. They genuinely cared a lot about me. In fact, Father James, my rector, emailed me tonight and said “where are you guys? we miss you and Kate! We’re studying infusion vs. imputation of grace, right up your alley, Scott! Hope to see you again at our bible studies and at church Sunday! Talk to you soon!”

Then my heart sank. I miss my rector and many of the folks there. I just enjoyed it and felt blessed there. Sometimes there are intangiables. There’s something I really enjoyed about being Anglican.

Intellectually I felt comfortable there to some degree but my years as a Catholic definitely came crashing in and set me off kilter.

For one thing I really missed confession (about time for GKC to come and jump on me :p) but also I just got so sick of the different traditions and beliefs within one tent. It could be maddening.

I don’t know. I felt less a hypocrite as an Anglican because I still don’t buy into NFP, indulgences, Lumen Gentium, a few contradictions within Catholicism, not sure about infallibility a lot of days, and I have a lot of questions unanswered. I’m also not a fan of Orthodoxy. I don’t buy into them even more. So really I would make the perfect Anglican in some ways but Catholicism tugs at my heartstrings a lot. Perhaps it is because it was my baptized faith as a child and it just hangs on, perhaps I really feel in my heart it’s the Rock, the True Church. I’m still sorting through a lot of emotions and feelings and confusion. I’m trying to be a good Catholic. Not sure if I’m succeeding. My wife could go back to St. Pauls Anglican Church this Sunday and she’d be thrilled! LOL
Sadly there is alot of truth here. My rector describes it as the Catholic faith, pre-schism, given in reformed language. I like his definition, but I see your point, especially in terms of the waiting room concept. I certainly relate to that in my own journey-stuck between Catholicism, Orthodoxy and Evangelicalism. But it also provides the right place for those of us who are never able to decide which way to go in that spectrum.
 
You don’t care if your priest has gay attractions, Meghan? Shoot, I care! LOL
Nope. I don’t think that being a homosexual is an ontological category. People are attracted to all kinds of people, and if we got rid historically of all the priests that were attracted to other men, there would be some amazing ones that we would lose.

I care that a priest can be chaste in the estate he finds himself in.
 
Nope. I don’t think that being a homosexual is an ontological category. People are attracted to all kinds of people, and if we got rid historically of all the priests that were attracted to other men, there would be some amazing ones that we would lose.

I care that a priest can be chaste in the estate he finds himself in.
Well the idea of being a homosexual, as an ontological category, is relatively new and confined to the modern era. It first appeared sometime in the 19th century I believe. Homosexual acts have been with us since ancient times. With the rise of the discipline of psychology, the door was opened for this rise to occur.
 
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