How has the Anglican Communion gone wrong?

[Bluegoat]

Well the idea of being a homosexual, as an ontological category, is relatively new and confined to the modern era. It first appeared sometime in the 19th century I believe. Homosexual acts have been with us since ancient times. With the rise of the discipline of psychology, the door was opened for this rise to occur.

Yes, it’s a new idea, in a bad sense. If it is an ontological catagory, then there is actually a good argument for things like gay marriage.

If it isn’t, what we have are people who seem to be prey to a certain temptation, just like many of us are prey to other temptations.

 

[JohnnyReb]

I hear ya. And the last statement you make is quite poignant. I have found the Anglican church as a good place to find some rest amidst all my struggles with the whole “am I Catholic or not?” stuff.

and it is a struggle. On a daily basis I have to basically tell myself to be motivated. It’s hard. I really loved my Anglican parish. They genuinely cared a lot about me. In fact, Father James, my rector, emailed me tonight and said “where are you guys? we miss you and Kate! We’re studying infusion vs. imputation of grace, right up your alley, Scott! Hope to see you again at our bible studies and at church Sunday! Talk to you soon!”

Then my heart sank. I miss my rector and many of the folks there. I just enjoyed it and felt blessed there. Sometimes there are intangiables. There’s something I really enjoyed about being Anglican.

Intellectually I felt comfortable there to some degree but my years as a Catholic definitely came crashing in and set me off kilter.

For one thing I really missed confession (about time for GKC to come and jump on me ) but also I just got so sick of the different traditions and beliefs within one tent. It could be maddening.

I don’t know. I felt less a hypocrite as an Anglican because I still don’t buy into NFP, indulgences, Lumen Gentium, a few contradictions within Catholicism, not sure about infallibility a lot of days, and I have a lot of questions unanswered. I’m also not a fan of Orthodoxy. I don’t buy into them even more. So really I would make the perfect Anglican in some ways but Catholicism tugs at my heartstrings a lot. Perhaps it is because it was my baptized faith as a child and it just hangs on, perhaps I really feel in my heart it’s the Rock, the True Church. I’m still sorting through a lot of emotions and feelings and confusion. I’m trying to be a good Catholic. Not sure if I’m succeeding. My wife could go back to St. Pauls Anglican Church this Sunday and she’d be thrilled! LOL

I really get what you are saying, especially the last part which is highlighted. I do know that God has not given us a spirit of fear and timidity, but of power and a sound mind. I wonder what the source of some of this confusion is and wonder if I just need to step back and let God be God and discern where the Spirit is leading. Sometimes we try to figure these things out in our own will and with our own wisdom, and that is not enough always. These questions are so much bigger than I am.

I relate to the idea of going to my childhood faith. Part of me wants to say, well I will just find a Baptist church that is more influenced by charismatic thought. I mean my family had always been Baptist, and my great grandparents planted Baptist Churches in Alabama back in the 1920s. Sure on many particulars I would disagree. I do mean many. The lack of Eucharistic centerned worship is probably the big one that keeps me from doing just that.

I hate the TEC has given in to such liberal nonsense. But one thing that is good about Catholicism is that they never will. But so many other non Catholic churches won’t either. Liberalism was defeated in the Baptist church here in America, and its unheard of in Pentecostalism, unless you go to movie theatres, dance, play cards and drink on occasion.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Are you saying since homosexuality isn’t ontological that a priest having gay fantasies day in day out, having SSA for men in his bible studies and at coffee hour or at Mass isn’t something that we should be concerned about? Obviously even if he doesn’t manifest it in outward behavior, it’s dangerous thinking, can end up informing his values as a pastor and counselor and confessor and even can turn into something more serious. Homosexuals should be weeded out of the seminaries and priesthood asap in my opinion. I’m with the pope on this one. When you say homosexuality isn’t ontological, you’re then saying it’s a learned behavior right, Meghan? And if so, then it can be unlearned. Is that what you’re saying then? I’m just trying to understand your position.

Nope. I don’t think that being a homosexual is an ontological category. People are attracted to all kinds of people, and if we got rid historically of all the priests that were attracted to other men, there would be some amazing ones that we would lose.

I care that a priest can be chaste in the estate he finds himself in.

 

[DavidKays]

Agreed one cannot throw away 15 centuries…but neither can we forget…we live in the here and how…not 15 centuries ago…let us learn from those 15 centuries…then learn to listen and follow Christ TODAY. He is our Present Teacher of which the scriptures witness.

I know what you mean sir. But you been a Quaker have your own means in defining truth and doctrine. This is not the same for us. Catholics and Orthodox are responsible to God for what trurths are taught within their own Church. Responsibility means obeying or precisely been obedient to the Church who has established those teachings in the first place. It is more pleasing to God when you are obedient to His Church then saying your prayers for 1 year. Let me explain. Once a Catholic Saint wanted to fast for a certain individual for an intention for that individual. When she ask permission from her Father confessor she was told by him not to do it. That night she heard from that individual that the Saint’s obedience to her Confessor brought her an answer to the intention quicker than had she prayed and fasted for it. That was confirmed by Our Lord Jesus when He said to Maria Faustina that one act of obedience is worth more to Him than your prayers and fasting for 1 year. Nothing really can change whether it is 500 A.D. or 2011 A.D. If we cannot obey 15 centuries of Christian doctrine you will never obey Him now.

 

[Manassah]

What exactly caused the current crisis in the Anglican church and the growing toleration of same-sex relationships and their being seen as compatible with Scripture.

The short answer is that the Anglicans are broadminded and thinking Christians. Same sex relationships are not tolerated. One “tolerates” an errant child. Many Anglicans and Episcopalians believe (as I do) that homosexuality is innate. Therefore they accept homosexuals. Some gay people I know believe their sexual orientation is a “gift from God”.

Further:

I will direct you to Leviticus

“But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living thing which is in the water, they are an abomination to you.” (Leviticus 11:10)

“They (shellfish) shall be an abomination to you; you shall not eat their flesh, but you shall regard their carcasses as an abomination.” (Leviticus 11:11).

That takes care of eating at The Red Lobster anytime soon.

In that same way we see the few references in the Old Testament to homosexuality for what they are: a reflection of the times in which they were written and not God-inspired.

In just that same way Sodom and Gommorah were destroyed for human excess rather than homosexual practices per se. In my view to take things out of context to suit human prejudices is a very dangerous thing to do and easily estranges many from joining the Roman Catholic Church who might otherwise do so.

 

[Manassah]

Really, its the embrace of the homosexual agenda, and allowing pro-choice forces to take hold, that has lead to the crisis. The problem is, these things are only symptoms and manifestations of the liberal mindset that was already there. More Orthdox Anglicanism is a beautiful tradition within Christianity. No one else allows for so much diversity (not the liberal kind) and influences to impace their thought without prejudice.

I’m curious as to what you mean by the “homosexual agenda”. All religions have an agenda. One could argue that the Roman Catholic Church has the most obvious. It has, in my view, nothing to do with being liberal or conservative. It’s a matter of humanity and intelligence when one realizes that a homosexual individual is defined no more or less by his sexual orientation that a heterosexual is.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Then why do homosexuals wear their sex life on their sleeves so much? Most of us homosexual folk don’t run around declaring our love for heterosexual intercourse and yet the gay community constantly has to have their own TV station (Logo), they repeat their sexual preference ad nauseum, and they have their own magazines, their own bars, their own tours and cruises, their own everything. And now they want to marry. Homosexuals are obsessed with defining their very being by how they have sex. So it is more their problem with how they define themselves than how we heteros define them. Intelligence and humanity have nothing to do with this. Homosexuality in Romans and Genesis was the result of God handing over humanity to a reprobate mind; homosexuality is hardly God-given or a blessing. It is a thorn in the side and same-sex attraction is a brutal, difficult challenge that needs to be grappled-with, confessed, fought-against, and we must all be sympathetic to their sin. We must all realize that heterosexual adultery or married pornography and so many other more accepted sins are just as grave and just as disordered. We must be patient and sympathetic with our brethren who struggle with ssa, however, we must never yield to the behavior as normal, part of the natural order, or sanctioned by our God. It is fundamentally evil.

I’m curious as to what you mean by the “homosexual agenda”. All religions have an agenda. One could argue that the Roman Catholic Church has the most obvious. It has, in my view, nothing to do with being liberal or conservative. It’s a matter of humanity and intelligence when one realizes that a homosexual individual is defined no more or less by his sexual orientation that a heterosexual is.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Of course Catholics are “thinking” Christians as well . We have no conclusive proof that homosexuality is innate. If it is, then it is still part of our fallen nature. Many of us are predisposed to different struggles be they alcohol, gluttony, pornography, obsessive-compulsive behavior, greed, etc. Homosexuality might very well be somewhat ingrained in some but it is a result of our fallen nature and gay Christians are called to celibacy and self-control. A gay Christian, as long as he or she doesn’t actively engage in the lifestyle, is as equal a sinner as the rest of us. And the sacrament of confession is there for any gay Catholic who needs it to dust himself off and rise again forgiven and ready to start over fighting this sin that is so damaging.

Jude 1:7 says that the sodomites were going after strange flesh which is obviously a homosexual reference. Paul mentions primarily their sin to be sodomy and gay sex. When Lot offers his virgin daughter to the mob they don’t like the idea, they want to have gay sex with the angels. (Genesis 19:5). So sodomy/gay lifestyle/bisexuality is clearly a huge piece of the puzzle of Sodom and Gomorrah. That being said, obviously greed, avarice, violence, orgiastic behavior, disloyalty, murder, and all sorts of other heathen behavior was dominating the culture as well. Jewish and Christian sources attest to that, yes. Ezekiel 16:49-50 attests to it. Inhospitality, more of a Greek obsession than anything, was also a prevalent theme regarding the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah as well. It’s definitely multi-dimensional but the sodomy of gay sex was huge and obvious and sinful.

The short answer is that the Anglicans are broadminded and thinking Christians. Same sex relationships are not tolerated. One “tolerates” an errant child. Many Anglicans and Episcopalians believe (as I do) that homosexuality is innate. Therefore they accept homosexuals. Some gay people I know believe their sexual orientation is a “gift from God”.

Further:

I will direct you to Leviticus

“But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living thing which is in the water, they are an abomination to you.” (Leviticus 11:10)

“They (shellfish) shall be an abomination to you; you shall not eat their flesh, but you shall regard their carcasses as an abomination.” (Leviticus 11:11).

That takes care of eating at The Red Lobster anytime soon.

In that same way we see the few references in the Old Testament to homosexuality for what they are: a reflection of the times in which they were written and not God-inspired.

In just that same way Sodom and Gommorah were destroyed for human excess rather than homosexual practices per se. In my view to take things out of context to suit human prejudices is a very dangerous thing to do and easily estranges many from joining the Roman Catholic Church who might otherwise do so.

 

[JohnnyReb]

I’m curious as to what you mean by the “homosexual agenda”. All religions have an agenda. One could argue that the Roman Catholic Church has the most obvious. It has, in my view, nothing to do with being liberal or conservative. It’s a matter of humanity and intelligence when one realizes that a homosexual individual is defined no more or less by his sexual orientation that a heterosexual is.

That is the problem. The homosexuals of our culture, as a whole, do define themselves by their sexuality so much more than their heterosexual counterparts. (Rainbow flags, pride parades etc…where their sexuality is flaunted come to mind). Historically Christianity has not ever condoned homosexuality, but its a minority within Christianity that seeks to change that. It is only within the last few years that it even become accepted within the Episcopal community. Don’t you know that it was listed as a mental health disorder in the DSM until pressure was put on the APA to remove homosexuality from the DSM?

 

[Manassah]

That is the problem. The homosexuals of our culture, as a whole, do define themselves by their sexuality so much more than their heterosexual counterparts. (Rainbow flags, pride parades etc…where their sexuality is flaunted come to mind).

In my experience your statement could not be further from the truth. In gaining more and more acceptance it may seem to you that gay people are promoting some agenda or too visible for your liking. That would be distinctly your problem. To illustrate my point, all gay folks growing up (until very recently) are inundated with heterosexual subliminal and ovet messages through their cultural experience interacting with this American society and the way it presents itself. The media follows suit.

Make no mistake. There’s a heterosexual agenda too. You’re simply too close to it to recognize it. Intelligent and fair change takes time in the face of mass ignorance. It’s profound to me that the striving for equal rights among all minority groups relives these same battles. We, as a society, appear to learn nothing from the lessons of history. The audacious condemnation of some who’d call themselves “Christian” is only the latest in the series of “prejudices du jour” which, when looked back on a generation from now, will be a source of great shame.

But for any thinking person to actually buy into that hogwash is a statement more about that individual than it is the homosexual. Homosexuality was listed as a “mental illness” until 1973 when the AMA declared it was not a psychological disorder. That’s ancient history and we’re light years beyond that (at least some of us are). Will you bring up Jim Crow laws next?

It’s become more and more apparent that the heterosexual is inordinately invested with what the homosexual does in his or her bedroom. By my way of thinking it’s (at the very least) voyeuristic and invasive. At it’s worst it’s perversion itself.

Historically Christianity has not ever condoned homosexuality, but its a minority within Christianity that seeks to change that. It is only within the last few years that it even become accepted within the Episcopal community. Don’t you know that it was listed as a mental health disorder in the DSM until pressure was put on the APA to remove homosexuality from the DSM?

Of course I know that. I know many things.

I also know all that “mental illness” nonsense. By valid comparison, all bans on interracial marriage were lifted only after an interracial couple from Virginia, Richard and Mildred Loving, began a legal battle in 1963 which was only lifted in 1967. Do we learn nothing from the lessons of history? Yes, 1967 !

Do you believe people should own other people? Do you believe eating Lobster Newburg is “an abomination”? At least be consistent. It states it right there several times in Leviticus. I also know that Christianity “condoning” or not condoning" homosexuality is a moot point. There are many other religions and faiths who embrace (many within the Christian denominations) gay folks as the equals they are. Christians who deign to “disapprove” or “not condone” homosexuality cannot (if they’re going to follow this logic) stop there. They must abstain from eating shellfish, and must condone slavery (to name but two examples). It’s right there in Leviticus. Again, I’d ask posters not to cherry-pick passages from the Bible to support their own personal biases.

Speaking less sarcastically, to elect to condemn easily ten percent of this good population by referencing a few Old Testament passages (as most detractors do) is, to this poster, the height of condescension and audacity.

In fact, the Bible speaks of its approval of slavery many many times more than it does the few references to homosexuality. If you need them I’ll give you chapters and verses in both the OT and the NT to support what I’ve written.

I should think it would get very exhausting frantically thumbing through the “no nos” in the Bible by which you can place judgment on others. If you are a Bible literalist we have no common ground. And there becomes no further need for us to interact on this board.

However, the larger question now becomes;

Why are you (and those who think similarly) so threatened by gay people marching for their First Amendment and Constitutional Rights and celebrating their sexuality (rainbow flags, etc.)? Sex (to my great astonishment) is largely a very frightening thing to most Americans. Where we can show violence and murder on the television screen without anyone saying a word, to show a woman’s breast is forbidden. HUH? There’s something very wrong about that. Sex is a gift from God. Violence is a human psychological aberation (and to the best of my knowledge the AMA still supports that contention).

Am I mistaken or are you afraid of sex generally and homosexuality specifically?

 

[Manassah]

Please see my post, above, to JohnnyReb. It states my position very clearly. It becomes tedious to repeat myself. Thank you.

But I will say this with respect to human predisposition. Many of us are predisposed to be nuclear physicists, and great artists. I am quite sure that homosexuality comes under the heading of “good predisposition”. Oh, and I have a question. Do you believe homosexuality if a “choice”?

All the male and female gay people I know celebrate their sexuality. The very last thing think of it as is “a struggle”. Interesting.

That “gay Christian is cool as long as he doesn’t indulge himself” line always gives amustement. What if I were to tell you, by example, that I felt heterosexuality is fine with God “as long as it’s not practiced”. Pretty preposterous eh?

Hurling cherry-picked Biblical verse at me will not further your personal agenda. It’s an old trick of faux religionists and I won’t have it.

Of course Catholics are “thinking” Christians as well . We have no conclusive proof that homosexuality is innate. If it is, then it is still part of our fallen nature. Many of us are predisposed to different struggles be they alcohol, gluttony, pornography, obsessive-compulsive behavior, greed, etc. Homosexuality might very well be somewhat ingrained in some but it is a result of our fallen nature and gay Christians are called to celibacy and self-control. A gay Christian, as long as he or she doesn’t actively engage in the lifestyle, is as equal a sinner as the rest of us. And the sacrament of confession is there for any gay Catholic who needs it to dust himself off and rise again forgiven and ready to start over fighting this sin that is so damaging.

Jude 1:7 says that the sodomites were going after strange flesh which is obviously a homosexual reference. Paul mentions primarily their sin to be sodomy and gay sex. When Lot offers his virgin daughter to the mob they don’t like the idea, they want to have gay sex with the angels. (Genesis 19:5). So sodomy/gay lifestyle/bisexuality is clearly a huge piece of the puzzle of Sodom and Gomorrah. That being said, obviously greed, avarice, violence, orgiastic behavior, disloyalty, murder, and all sorts of other heathen behavior was dominating the culture as well. Jewish and Christian sources attest to that, yes. Ezekiel 16:49-50 attests to it. Inhospitality, more of a Greek obsession than anything, was also a prevalent theme regarding the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah as well. It’s definitely multi-dimensional but the sodomy of gay sex was huge and obvious and sinful.

 

[Manassah]

Then why do homosexuals wear their sex life on their sleeves so much?

I’ve not noticed that they do. If you think they do, gay people must make you uncomfortable for some reason.

Most of us homosexual folk don’t run around declaring our love for heterosexual intercourse

You may want to rephrase that reference above to your sexuality…

And why does the the gay community constantly has to have their own TV station (Logo)

SImple answer? In order that the youth coming up can stop thinking of themselves as “other” and alone and begin to live their own truth. Don’t let it threaten you.

… and have their own magazines, their own bars, their own tours and cruises, their own everything.

Hmmm… that’s a toughie. Do you suppose it’s because they’re not represented in mainstream heterosexual society? Oh and would you like a gay fellow to strike up a conversation with you when you were at some random venue then ask you for a date after a good exchange? I suspect not. That’s why they have “their own bars”.

And now they want to marry. Homosexuals are obsessed with defining their very being by how they have sex.

Does being married to the heterosexual solely involve sex? I’m amazed.

So it is more their problem with how they define themselves than how we heteros define them. Intelligence and humanity have nothing to do with this. Homosexuality in Romans and Genesis was the result of God handing over humanity to a reprobate mind; homosexuality is hardly God-given or a blessing.

You cannot instruct people how to believe.

It is a thorn in the side and same-sex attraction is a brutal, difficult challenge that needs to be grappled-with, confessed, fought-against, and we must all be sympathetic to their sin.

Not to the homosexual. It if is for you, I suggest you grapple away in your struggle. But it must get terribly painful continually banging your head against that wall.

That so many of my species appear to need a guide book (the Bible) to instruct them in what is good and what is evil is a neverending source of perplexion to me. Perhaps there’s a religion gene too. I don’t know. All I can tell you that I (and many like me) have been able to discern the good from the bad instinctively since the get-go. I leave you to your book. However, I insist you don’t impose it on me.

We must all realize that heterosexual adultery or married pornography and so many other more accepted sins are just as grave and just as disordered.

Oh … got it. You’re one that puts homosexuality in with pedophilia and the myriad of “sins” one must battle against. We have no common ground you and I. In my opinion you’re myopically stiffled by vestigial antiquated lies written in order to control others thousands of years ago. Forgive me but I’d not want to be you.

We must be patient and sympathetic with our brethren who struggle with ssa, however, we must never yield to the behavior as normal, part of the natural order, or sanctioned by our God. It is fundamentally evil.

Well there’s that ol’ condescension again…

No. Humans are often evil. Homosexuality is not. And you cannot instruct others how to believe. To many, as aforestated, their homosexuality is their “great Gift from God”. I’m sure you’ve noticed, by numerical proportion, how much more intelligent and gifted gay folks are than their straight counterparts. Gives one pause.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Please see my post, above, to JohnnyReb. It states my position very clearly. It becomes tedious to repeat myself. Thank you.

But I will say this with respect to human predisposition. Many of us are predisposed to be nuclear physicists, and great artists. I am quite sure that homosexuality comes under the heading of “good predisposition”. Oh, and I have a question. Do you believe homosexuality if a “choice”?

All the male and female gay people I know celebrate their sexuality. The very last thing think of it as is “a struggle”. Interesting.

That “gay Christian is cool as long as he doesn’t indulge himself” line always gives amustement. What if I were to tell you, by example, that I felt heterosexuality is fine with God “as long as it’s not practiced”. Pretty preposterous eh?

Hurling cherry-picked Biblical verse at me will not further your personal agenda. It’s an old trick of faux religionists and I won’t have it.

How about the DSM-IV its that good enough? “persistent and marked distress about sexual orientation”.

One doesn’t need to relate to Biblical verse in this behavior. The evolution of species is a very good example where same-sex interaction is void, non-existant.

And yes it is a choice in all but the “very rare” case where an individual is predesposed from birth. And those are very rare. Matter of fact I have never met one. On the contrary what I have met are individuals who have had an extremely difficult time coming to accept this behavior. Often through abuse, be it physical or psychological.

 

[Manassah]

How about the DMS-IV its that good enough? “persistent and marked distress about sexual orientation”.

Good enough? I’m not here to “prove” anything. I’m simply stating my view and substantiating it. And incidentally homosexuality as a mental disorder has been eliminated from DMS-IV. I quote:

“The DSM has attracted controversy and criticism as well as praise. There have been five revisions since it was first published in 1952, gradually including more mental disorders, although some have been removed and are no longer considered to be mental disorders, most notably homosexuality.”

One doesn’t need to relate to Biblical verse in this behavior. The evolution of species is a very good example where same-sex interaction is void, non-existant.

You don’t actually mean to state that somehow the existence of homosexuals will eliminate the heterosexuals among us do you?? Good GOD, the fear factor redolent on this site is astounding.

And yes it is a choice

Oh yes. I can just see it now. A fourteen year old boy awakes one fine May morning to the option in his sexual wiring to ask himself “shall I be a heterosexual or a homosexual?” It makes perfect sense that so many would “choose” homosexuality given the societal (not to say Christian) take on gay folks. Yes. I see that. It also makes perfect sense that he, as a fourteen year old boy, would be ever-so anxious to inform his sympathetic peer group and his parents.

One question; When did you make your “choice” to be a heterosexua?. Would you be willing to give me the date, time of day, and how difficult it was to fight your homosexual inclinations"?

… met are individuals who have had an extremely difficult time coming to accept this behavior. Often through abuse, be it physical or psychological.

Ah yes. The old defensive thinking. And I believe you within your limited experience. I suspect the gay people you’ve met are riddled by guilt and abuse encountered through their upbringing (not the least of which is the untenable attitudes of people like you).

 

[GaryTaylor]

Slow down, if you have all the answers? Why ask any questions?

Im saying the BIble is dealing with a Moral aspect period. Theres more to it.

“You don’t actually mean to state that somehow the existence of homosexuals will eliminate the heterosexuals among us do you?? Good GOD, the fear factor redolent on this site is astounding.”

Is that what I said? Or what you interpeted? I’m saying, its a fact Man is the only species which interacts in this manner.

"Oh yes. I can just see it now. A fourteen year old boy awakes one fine May morning to the option in his sexual wiring to ask himself “shall I be a heterosexual or a homosexual?” It makes perfect sense that so many would “choose” homosexuality given the societal (not to say Christian) take on gay folks. Yes. I see that. It also makes perfect sense that he, as a fourteen year old boy, would be ever-so anxious to inform his sympathetic peer group and his parents.

One question; When did you make your “choice” to be a heterosexua?. Would you be willing to give me the date, time of day, and how difficult it was to fight your homosexual inclinations"?"

Not what were talking about nor your experience, but if you like, I would be willing discuss your issues.

Ah yes. The old defensive thinking. And I believe you within your limited experience. I suspect the gay people you’ve met are riddled by guilt and abuse encountered through their upbringing (not the least of which is the untenable attitudes of people like you).

My “limited” experience is a carrer which I retired from working with behavior. Do you have experience aside from a need to defend same sex, which in fact I’m not attacking. But your defensiveness is certainly indictive of a wall you chose to create which is a barrier.

 

[JohnnyReb]

In my experience your statement could not be further from the truth. In gaining more and more acceptance it may seem to you that gay people are promoting some agenda or too visible for your liking. That would be distinctly your problem.

You are making alot of assumptions about me that are not true. You don’t know me, and don’t project your own biases towards those who disagree with homosexuality onto me, thanks.

Make no mistake. There’s a heterosexual agenda too. You’re simply too close to it to recognize it. Intelligent and fair change takes time in the face of mass ignorance. It’s profound to me that the striving for equal rights among all minority groups relives these same battles.

Minority groups are a legal definition, and there has been no court in America that has recognized homosexuals as a distinct minority group like women and racial minorities. Even still, it is illegal to discriminate against homosexuals in hiring and firing in the work force, and rightfully so. What people chose do in their private lives is none of our business.

The agenda lies in the fact that I am not asked to “tolerate” homosexuality (That is, live and let live) I’m asked to embrace it and see homosexual unions has holy in the eyes of God, despite what the word of God and Christian tradition have always taught. I cannot do that.

But for any thinking person to actually buy into that hogwash is a statement more about that individual than it is the homosexual. Homosexuality was listed as a “mental illness” until 1973 when the AMA declared it was not a psychological disorder. That’s ancient history and we’re light years beyond that (at least some of us are). Will you bring up Jim Crow laws next?

Tell me. Have homosexuals even been told to ride in the back of the bus, or say, drink from gay water fountains, or not given the right to vote? This comparison is off, by a country mile. Was being black ever declared a mental illness? No.

It’s become more and more apparent that the heterosexual is inordinately invested with what the homosexual does in his or her bedroom. By my way of thinking it’s (at the very least) voyeuristic and invasive. At it’s worst it’s perversion itself.

I could care less about what they do in the privacy of their homes and in their private lives. If thats all they asked of us, I’m fine with that. But its not.

Do you believe people should own other people? Do you believe eating Lobster Newburg is “an abomination”? At least be consistent. It states it right there several times in Leviticus. I also know that Christianity “condoning” or not condoning" homosexuality is a moot point. There are many other religions and faiths who embrace (many within the Christian denominations) gay folks as the equals they are.

If Levitcal laws are all we had, you would be right. But Paul makes it clear (1 Corinthians 6:9, Romans 1) that homosexuality is wrong. Unless one wants to try to make the scriptures say something that they want. In the last days, many will gather around them a great number of teachers and say what their itching ears want to hear, deviations from the word of God. Its ok to be gay, God blesses your gay union!

Speaking less sarcastically, to elect to condemn easily ten percent of this good population by referencing a few Old Testament passages (as most detractors do) is, to this poster, the height of condescension and audacity.

The evidence does not suggest that its 10 percent. I don’t condemn anyone. I let the Bible speak for itself.

In fact, the Bible speaks of its approval of slavery many many times more than it does the few references to homosexuality. If you need them I’ll give you chapters and verses in both the OT and the NT to support what I’ve written.

I should think it would get very exhausting frantically thumbing through the “no nos” in the Bible by which you can place judgment on others. If you are a Bible literalist we have no common ground. And there becomes no further need for us to interact on this board.

True, but slavery in Greco-Roman times was far different than the American experience. Be sure not to read that understanding into it. Slavery in those times often benefited the slave and the master. People with debt could sell themselves into slavery for a time to pay off debts and be freed when those debts were reconciled.

Why are you (and those who think similarly) so threatened by gay people marching for their First Amendment and Constitutional Rights and celebrating their sexuality (rainbow flags, etc.)? Sex (to my great astonishment) is largely a very frightening thing to most Americans. Where we can show violence and murder on the television screen without anyone saying a word, to show a woman’s breast is forbidden. HUH? There’s something very wrong about that.

Am I mistaken or are you afraid of sex generally and homosexuality specifically?

Sex, violence etc…are all problems in our society and have become too accepted. Sex between a man and his wife is a gift from God. All other forms a perversion. Its fine for adults IMO who can look past it, but when it comes to children, they need to be protected from all of it. I get mad about viagra commericals and such coming on before 9pm on channels that kids will be watching. Its wrong. If gay people want to say put out their flags and what not, thats fine with me. I personally wish the government would get out of “marriage” all together, issue everyone (straight and gay couples) certificates of union, and let the churches decide whom they will and will not all to participate in marriage. Get the state out of it! Heck gay people should get the same rights in hospitals (next of kin, power of attorney etc…) for their partners as straight people do.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Slow down, if you have all the answers? Why ask any questions?

Im saying the BIble is dealing with a Moral aspect period. Theres more to it.

“You don’t actually mean to state that somehow the existence of homosexuals will eliminate the heterosexuals among us do you?? Good GOD, the fear factor redolent on this site is astounding.”

Is that what I said? Or what you interpeted? I’m saying, its a fact Man is the only species which interacts in this manner.

"Oh yes. I can just see it now. A fourteen year old boy awakes one fine May morning to the option in his sexual wiring to ask himself “shall I be a heterosexual or a homosexual?” It makes perfect sense that so many would “choose” homosexuality given the societal (not to say Christian) take on gay folks. Yes. I see that. It also makes perfect sense that he, as a fourteen year old boy, would be ever-so anxious to inform his sympathetic peer group and his parents.

One question; When did you make your “choice” to be a heterosexua?. Would you be willing to give me the date, time of day, and how difficult it was to fight your homosexual inclinations"?"

Not what were talking about nor your experience, but if you like, I would be willing discuss your issues.

Ah yes. The old defensive thinking. And I believe you within your limited experience. I suspect the gay people you’ve met are riddled by guilt and abuse encountered through their upbringing (not the least of which is the untenable attitudes of people like you).

My “limited” experience is a career which I retired from working with behavior. Do you have experience aside from a need to defend same sex, which in fact I’m not attacking. But your defensiveness is certainly indictive of a wall you chose to create which is a barrier.

Not trying to attack you my friend, just a different point of view.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

No more than an adulterer, porn addict, white collar criminal, swinger, abortionist, or any other sinner. That doesn’t mean homosexuality is not a sin. You draw a lot of conclusions, Manassah, from not even knowing us in this forum

**As for the second comment, agreed, it was a typo. I’m glad you still got the drift. **

I’ve not noticed that they do. If you think they do, gay people must make you uncomfortable for some reason.

You may want to rephrase that reference above to your sexuality…
You’re making the typical pro-homosexual argument. Make guys like me “threatened” and “homophobes” and “bigots” who can’t sleep at night thinking gay people are taking over the town. Not the case, friend. I never said I felt threatened.
SImple answer? In order that the youth coming up can stop thinking of themselves as “other” and alone and begin to live their own truth. Don’t let it threaten you.

Maybe they shouldn’t be represented in mainstream society? Folks who practice beastiality aren’t reperesented in the mainstream “hetero” society but I don’t plan on constructing bars with troughs and livestock either?
Hmmm… that’s a toughie. Do you suppose it’s because they’re not represented in mainstream heterosexual society? Oh and would you like a gay fellow to strike up a conversation with you when you were at some random venue then ask you for a date after a good exchange? I suspect not. That’s why they have “their own bars”.

You’re easily-amazed, Manassah. Easily-amazed indeed. And the hypocrisy here is thick as cheddar cheese. You’re the one labeling an entire part of the populace solely based on how they have sexual intercourse. You’re the one talking about these folks like a minority group and completely defining them based on their sodomy and yet when we talk about the sex act and marriage you diminish the role of sex. Now I’m amazed!
Does being married to the heterosexual solely involve sex? I’m amazed.

**So you’re saying we sholdn’t have any social or moral norms in our society? Congratulations, Manassah, you’ve just joined the moral relativism society. **
You cannot instruct people how to believe.

**Again, the typical liberal argument defending the gay agenda. These people are having oral sex and sodomy with other men and I’m the one with the problem because my religion for 2,000 years has said it’s sinful and evil and the Old Testament did as well before that. Yes, shame on me for sticking to my religion. I should turn my religion upside down for your agenda, right? No dice. And trust me, no head-banging in this house. It sounds more like your forehead is bruised as you passionate get angry at any and all in here who don’t agree with this immoral lifestyle you defend. **
Not to the homosexual. It if is for you, I suggest you grapple away in your struggle. But it must get terribly painful continually banging your head against that wall.

If there is a religion gene, I’m glad my Saviour Jesus Christ looked kindly on me and gave me one! Thanks be to God!
That so many of my species appear to need a guide book (the Bible) to instruct them in what is good and what is evil is a neverending source of perplexion to me. Perhaps there’s a religion gene too. I don’t know. All I can tell you that I (and many like me) have been able to discern the good from the bad instinctively since the get-go. I leave you to your book.

We live in a country in which you’re free to believe in whatever you want. The federal government won’t be your judge, Christ Jesus will. It’s between you and the Lord, not me. Good luck…
However, I insist you don’t impose it on me.

**Those are some big words—myopically, vestigial, antiquated, all in one sentence. Props, Manassah. And right back at you. I wouldn’t want to be you either. We have no common ground because I want nothing to do with evil lifestyles. If you are ok with sodomy, that’s your business. If you want to follow the lead of secular values against those of the Church, that’s your right. No one said you have to believe what Catholics believe. You seem really defensive about that! **
Oh … got it. You’re one that puts homosexuality in with pedophilia and the myriad of “sins” one must battle against. We have no common ground you and I. In my opinion you’re myopically stiffled by vestigial antiquated lies written in order to control others thousands of years ago. Forgive me but I’d not want to be you.

**Depends on your perspective, friend. **
Well there’s that ol’ condescension again…

All humans are sinners? YES! Homosexuality is a sin? YES I find it fascinating how you try to put “intelligence” into the equation. So having intelligence negates sin? I guess we can let Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, and a lot of serial killers off the hook; intelligence abounded in all, but no morality or faith. I’m glad I’ve given you pause. It’s important to pause and take a respit from the toils of the daily grind and meditate.
No. Humans are often evil. Homosexuality is not. And you cannot instruct others how to believe. To many, as aforestated, their homosexuality is their “great Gift from God”. I’m sure you’ve noticed, by numerical proportion, how much more intelligent and gifted gay folks are than their straight counterparts. Gives one pause.

 

[gkuffy]

How can one say the Bible does not reffer to committed Homosexuality as being wrong when Jesus himself said In the beginning God created them man and woman while preaching about marriage? Homosexuality is wrong at any level and should not be condoned by any Christian but we must love the sinner and hate the sin. We need to pray for them to have a true conversion.

 

[Manassah]

Well the idea of being a homosexual, as an ontological category, is relatively new and confined to the modern era. It first appeared sometime in the 19th century I believe. Homosexual acts have been with us since ancient times. With the rise of the discipline of psychology, the door was opened for this rise to occur.

One would think that, as you state, “homosexual acts have been with us since ancient times” you’d realize it was as legitimate a sexual orientation as heteroseuxality…

Recall also that well into the 20th women were not allowed the vote and in the 18th century they were chattel. The times they are (finally) a’ changin’.