How has the Anglican Communion gone wrong?

[NickVA]

What exactly caused the current crisis in the Anglican church and the growing toleration of same-sex relationships and their being seen as compatible with Scripture.

 

[Publisher]

What exactly caused the current crisis in the Anglican church and the growing toleration of same-sex relationships and their being seen as compatible with Scripture.

I’m not sure the Anglicans have a “crisis” from their point of view…that seems to be a caricature of the Anglican communion from their detractors and disidents.

Like many Friends, those Anglicans do not believe their view is contrary to scripture. Levitical prohibitions that seem to denounce homosexuality are seen as cultural. Leviticus states that the purpose of it’s writing was so Israel would not mimic their neighbors.

Pagan rites that included homosexuality as well as the practice of “womanizing” their captives by rape was prohibited. Neither Gensis,Leviticus or Romans deals with same sex relationship in a committed covenanted relationship. These were cultural prohibitions with no basis in modern understanding of sexuality and sexual orientation.

To impose such ancient views on modern humans is wrong. The Anglican communion and many “mainline” denominations no longer embrace an ancient and uninformed view of human sexuality.

Scripture is not “ignored”…just understood differently than most conservative believers understanding.

The issue of social justice for sexual minorities is addressed by the various communions, as well as the Society of Friends through social justice…not ancient sexual ethics dealing with paganism and religious rites.

 

[Barbkw]

*“Like many Friends, those Anglicans do not believe their view is contrary to scripture. Levitical prohibitions that seem to denounce homosexuality are seen as cultural. Leviticus states that the purpose of it’s writing was so Israel would not mimic their neighbors.”

To impose such ancient views on modern humans is wrong. The Anglican communion and many “mainline” denominations no longer embrace an ancient and uninformed view of human sexuality.*

:doh2:

Rewrite the Commandments - reform your God into your century’s image.

 

[Publisher]

:doh2:

Rewrite the Commandments - reform your God into your century’s image.

Again an uncharitable “caricature” painted by the detractors of other faith traditions..

 

[Barbkw]

:doh2:Rewrite the Commandments - reform your God into your century’s image.

Again an uncharitable “caricature” painted by the detractors of other faith traditions..

Noncelibate SSA clergy practice noncelibate SSA sexual acts for themselves and then they preach their acceptance to the parish and to the world.

Then the parish accepts noncelibate SSA and the reinterpretation of Sacred Scripture.

 

[Publisher]

Again an uncharitable “caricature” painted by the detractors of other faith traditions..

Noncelibate SSA clergy practice noncelibate SSA sexual acts for themselves and then they preach their acceptance to the parish and to the world.

Then the parish accepts noncelibate SSA and the reinterpretation of Sacred Scripture.

Not “reinterpretation”…but “not your interpretation…nor your churches”…

It is uncharitable to claim that someone you don’t know is making God into their image…sounds like that is a fault Catholics indulge in as well.

 

[Barbkw]

P.S. In the Catholic Church, masturbation is a mortal sin.

Sexual acts between single heterosexual people are mortal sins.

Sexual acts between single SSA people are mortal sins.

 

[Publisher]

That is your belief concerning the workings of other faith traditions…it has no basis in fact how they…or I arrived at our understanding of scripture…true…we did not embrace your Catholic understanding. It was arrived at with much soul searching prayer and discussion on how to remain faithful to the testimony of scripture and still embrace a faith that speaks to the needs of people in the 21st century.

It is not YOUR understanding…nor the understanding of your church community…but it is one we have embraced as the will and mind of God for us…we are accountable to Him and Him alone…not you…nor your church tradition.

You may choose to impose your caricature upon us…but it does not speak to our condition nor does it address the procedure we undertook with much “fear and trembling” to discern the Mind and Will of God for our lives.

How you determine it for yourself…is between you, your faith tradition and God.

Peace to you friend.

 

[gmcbroom]

The homosexual issue and and ordaination of women as Priests and Bishops were probably two of the biggest reasons where the Anglican Communion has gone astray then the watering done of their own rituals doesn’t help either though I understand why they did that to an extent, in order to make it more appealing to the masses outside who aren’t keen on Christianity due to some of it strong rhetoic. Somehow I don’t think that strengthened their position. I’m not saying that the Anglican Communion is wrong just that their tackling the plummeting parishner issue in an unorthdox way. I hope their Communion can make a turn around in numbers only time will tell.
Peace be with you
gmcbroom

 

[Barbkw]

" It was arrived at with much soul searching prayer and discussion on how to remain faithful to the testimony of scripture and still embrace a faith that speaks to the needs of people in the 21st century."

Soul searching prayer with yourself and discussion with humans on how to make noncelibate SSA “happy” in this world.

 

[Publisher]

" It was arrived at with much soul searching prayer and discussion on how to remain faithful to the testimony of scripture and still embrace a faith that speaks to the needs of people in the 21st century."

Soul searching prayer with yourself and discussion with humans on how to make noncelibate SSA “happy” in this world.

No friend…again that is a Catholic “caricature”…one that does not speak from that Center of Light and Truth.

 

[jtodisco]

I’m not sure the Anglicans have a “crisis” from their point of view…that seems to be a caricature of the Anglican communion from their detractors and disidents.

Though I will not deny that some of the claims made about the Anglican church are made by people who are prejudiced against them, this does not mean there isn’t a crisis in their church. And the criticisms of what is happening in the Anglican churches in the United States are coming primarily from within the Anglican community. The biggest outcry from what I understand is coming from the Anglican churches in Africa. There are also many American Anglicans who are very upset by these changes, and some are choosing to or considering leaving the Anglican church to become members of the Catholic Church.

Also, there were problems in the Anglican community long before the recent choices to ordain homosexuals and women in the United States. Many former Anglicans that I have met (who all ended up converting to Catholicism) felt that the Anglican church lacked enough cohesion due to its attempts to cater to as many divergent beliefs and view points as possible. I’ve heard the term “wishy-washy” used numerous times by former Anglicans to describe the Anglican church.

Lastly, just to clarify, I do not hate or have negative feelings towards the Anglicans. I think that after the Orthodox churches they are the closest to being in line with the truths that the Catholic Church teaches and adheres to. Though unfortunately the American branch of the Anglican church is drifting away from their brothers and sisters around the globe.

 

[Barbkw]

“No friend…again that is a Catholic “caricature”…one that does not speak from that Center of Light and Truth.”

Sanctifying immoral sexual acts “does not speak from that Center of Light and Truth.”

That, is calling Truth a lie.

 

[suissemissed]

No friend…again that is a Catholic “caricature”…one that does not speak from that Center of Light and Truth.

We as Catholics believe that God entrusted to the Church the truths about Faith ad Morality, and this truth is passed down in Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium (which interprets the other two). This whole issue is one BIG reason why I’m converting to Catholicism - who on earth can say what the “center of light and truth” is? You and I both claim different views on homosexuality, and we each claim that the Holy Spirit has revealed these truths to us in some fashion… but we can’t both be right! And the 30,000+ denominations in the world, who all have different views on just about everything, also claim that the Spirit is “on their side.” Clearly, either the Holy Spirit is doing a terrible job, or something more than a mere personal conviction is necessary to arrive at the truth.

Again, we as Catholics simply believe that the Church has continued to function just as it did in Acts 15:1-24 at the Council of Jerusalem. The Spirit guides the leaders of the Church (the Pope and the bishops in communion with him), and they are the sole ones entrusted with authoritatively interpreting Scripture and Tradition, and the Holy Spirit protects them from error (not us) when they speak for the whole Church. We just don’t see any reason why God would stop operating in the Church (like in Acts) after the apostles died

 

[MtGargano]

“It was arrived at with much soul searching prayer and discussion on how to remain faithful to the testimony of scripture and still embrace a faith that speaks to the needs of people in the 21st century”

how to remain faithful to the testimony of scripture ?..scripture is the testimony of how to remain faithful…it was taught and written for us by the true authorities on the matter, men inspired by the Holy Spirit, the apostles and their successors…faithfulness to it is arrived at by our will, not discussion or soul searching of its interpretation…it is timeless and already applicable to the “needs” of the peoples of all centuries…
are you instead speaking of a faith that still embraces the “wants” of the 21st century ?..i believe perhaps yes…

God Bless

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

The brainstorm to “ordain” women that cropped up in the 1970’s as a part of the I am Woman: Hear Me Roar generation is what truly started to rip Anglicanism apart in the last 40 years. And it is the dubious practice of women’s ordination that will continue to cleave Anglicanism into shreads. ACNA is already ripe with the taint of W.O. and within a decade they will fall apart due to ++Duncan’s heterodox need to ordain women. Africa is starting to give in to this practice even. When there is a muddied and distorted view of the priesthood being introduced into the equation, all sorts of other nonsense will follow…and it has…

 

[Publisher]

“No friend…again that is a Catholic “caricature”…one that does not speak from that Center of Light and Truth.”

Sanctifying immoral sexual acts “does not speak from that Center of Light and Truth.”

That, is calling Truth a lie.

May the peace of God be with you friend.

 

[manualman]

With all due respect to Publisher and his contrary opinions, what is happening to Anglicanism today is a direct result and outcome of the very birth of Anglicanism. Henry VIII split England off from the rest of the catholic church so that he could do what HE wanted without answering to anyone else (adultery, aka “remarriage”). His successors further severed the link by denigrating the meaning of ‘apostolc succession’ and effectively abandoning it until all its valid (if schismatic) bishops had died off. At that point, Anglicanism isn’t actually a church anymore. No apostolic succession, no church. But they WERE still a community of christian believers and still continued on a trajectory of protestant thinking, slightly calvinist in influence. Now 500 years separated from the divinely protected teaching authority of the Church, it should be no surprise to catholics that such groups grow further and further in teaching from that of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church, just like it should be no surprise that the differences between catholics and orthodox remain comparatively minor in spite of TWICE the historical time frame since the EO did NOT abandon apostolic succession the way the Anglicans did.

If the above sounds rather smug, I apologize. It’s not like I personally, nor my ancestors or even the bishops and popes get actual credit for remaining true while others gradually fall away. The difference is not smarts, savvy, insight or wisdom, but the protection of the Holy Spirit. I have a self deprecating quote I like to use at work when something dicey ends up well - “See, it’s better to be lucky than to be good!” The corollary in faith is “It’s better to be blessed than to be smart.”

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I’ve made my opinion clear that I think, due to the Dutch Touch and Polish Pat post Apostolicae Curae that I think the Anglicans do indeed, by and large, have apostolic succession and valid orders. That being said, valid orders doesn’t necessarily make a church keep Satan and his minions away and it doesn’t ensure orthodoxy. The Old Catholic Church is “ordaining” women, the Anglican Communion overall allows W.O., etc.

I blame Calvinism to some degree for the collapse of the proper understanding of holy orders in Anglicanism. I also think women’s ordination stems from a corrupted understanding of holy orders. The lack of proper oversight and clinging to tradition and history that Catholicism and Orthodoxy maintains as vital are woefully-lacking in the Anglican world, for the most part.

The nature of the Church of England is essentially political obviously. It’s a state religion. And when you have prime ministers and monarchs and parliament involved, the religion will be heavily-informed by the political hacks and braintrusts of secular society, which is like leaving the barn door open for Beelzebub’s entire force. And the CofE has influenced the rest of Anglicanism for centuries, still does.

Anglicanism is in serious trouble and seems to be on the road to extinction, sadly. It seems that it is morphing into different religions just using the same prayer book.

With all due respect to Publisher and his contrary opinions, what is happening to Anglicanism today is a direct result and outcome of the very birth of Anglicanism. Henry VIII split England off from the rest of the catholic church so that he could do what HE wanted without answering to anyone else (adultery, aka “remarriage”). His successors further severed the link by denigrating the meaning of ‘apostolc succession’ and effectively abandoning it until all its valid (if schismatic) bishops had died off. At that point, Anglicanism isn’t actually a church anymore. No apostolic succession, no church. But they WERE still a community of christian believers and still continued on a trajectory of protestant thinking, slightly calvinist in influence. Now 500 years separated from the divinely protected teaching authority of the Church, it should be no surprise to catholics that such groups grow further and further in teaching from that of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church, just like it should be no surprise that the differences between catholics and orthodox remain comparatively minor in spite of TWICE the historical time frame since the EO did NOT abandon apostolic succession the way the Anglicans did.

If the above sounds rather smug, I apologize. It’s not like I personally, nor my ancestors or even the bishops and popes get actual credit for remaining true while others gradually fall away. The difference is not smarts, savvy, insight or wisdom, but the protection of the Holy Spirit. I have a self deprecating quote I like to use at work when something dicey ends up well - “See, it’s better to be lucky than to be good!” The corollary in faith is “It’s better to be blessed than to be smart.”

 

[manualman]

Gurney, I don’t necessarily disagree with anything you said above, except perhaps to quibble that the Dutch Touch is an interesting and complex line of reasoning that becomes more academic all the time as more and more ‘invalid material’ is purportedly ordained to the Anglican ‘episcopacy’ every year. My suspicion is that Rome is simply dragging their heels on addressing the issue until it is a moot point (not terribly far off, IMO).

My apologies for the ‘episcopacy’ statement, I just don’t know how to put it that doesn’t sound un-PC.