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GKC
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gurneyhalleck1
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While I understand why the continuing Anglicans moved on in St. Louis walking away from TEC, I think anytime the church breaks off, becomes more of a microcosm, and gets more clannish, the less catholic it becomes. That is the sad reality of the Reformation is splinter upon splinter upon splinter. Anglicanism is becoming so overlapping and schismatic within itself and even more difficult to comprehend that that was one reason why I have tried (and I stress “trying!”) to come back to the Catholic Church is because, even though I am not in full agreement yet and find some teachings difficult, at least I know what they teach! GKC’s oft-used “depends on which Anglicans you ask” is a bit disturbing when you really break it down. It points to a rubbery theology that is a bit maleable and that bugs me more than excessive dogma often times.
While women’s ordination scares the pants off me, the way Calvinism is experiencing a renaissance in ACNA and in Africa worries me just as much. The confusing priorities bother me as well. For example, why would men like +Iker, ++Duncan, and +Schofield care at all that the ABC recognizes them? Why is union with Canterbury at ALL even desired? We’ve heard the conservatives lambast ++Rowan as a goober who can’t make a decision and the Church of England has truly fallen to pieces in so many ways, why seek union with it? Why? Why the urgency? Since TEC is very cozy with the CofE especially monetarily and they all seem to respect each other a great deal, what is the motivation to join a communion that still recognizes the very people you split from to begin with? And as far as these “conservative” TEC parishes, why are they still TEC? How can they compromise their positions and stomach Schiori and the TEC agenda and lawsuits that are killing their brethren in ACNA with whom they share far more than TEC? I find it befuddling? And the Continuing Anglicans seem to be dying off steadily attendancewise from what I hear. Anglicanism in general is becoming more gereatric and the sense of urgency to “church plant” in ACNA is largely charismatically and calvinistically-driven. that bugs me.
Boy, I have more bugs than a PC!
While women’s ordination scares the pants off me, the way Calvinism is experiencing a renaissance in ACNA and in Africa worries me just as much. The confusing priorities bother me as well. For example, why would men like +Iker, ++Duncan, and +Schofield care at all that the ABC recognizes them? Why is union with Canterbury at ALL even desired? We’ve heard the conservatives lambast ++Rowan as a goober who can’t make a decision and the Church of England has truly fallen to pieces in so many ways, why seek union with it? Why? Why the urgency? Since TEC is very cozy with the CofE especially monetarily and they all seem to respect each other a great deal, what is the motivation to join a communion that still recognizes the very people you split from to begin with? And as far as these “conservative” TEC parishes, why are they still TEC? How can they compromise their positions and stomach Schiori and the TEC agenda and lawsuits that are killing their brethren in ACNA with whom they share far more than TEC? I find it befuddling? And the Continuing Anglicans seem to be dying off steadily attendancewise from what I hear. Anglicanism in general is becoming more gereatric and the sense of urgency to “church plant” in ACNA is largely charismatically and calvinistically-driven. that bugs me.
Boy, I have more bugs than a PC!
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GKC
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Interesting you should pick St. Peters. It’s in my diocese. +Hewett is the bishop/rector of my parish.
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Anna_Scott
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Gurney,While I understand why the continuing Anglicans moved on in St. Louis walking away from TEC, I think anytime the church breaks off, becomes more of a microcosm, and gets more clannish, the less catholic it becomes. That is the sad reality of the Reformation is splinter upon splinter upon splinter. Anglicanism is becoming so overlapping and schismatic within itself and even more difficult to comprehend that that was one reason why I have tried (and I stress “trying!”) to come back to the Catholic Church is because, even though I am not in full agreement yet and find some teachings difficult, at least I know what they teach! GKC’s oft-used “depends on which Anglicans you ask” is a bit disturbing when you really break it down. It points to a rubbery theology that is a bit maleable and that bugs me more than excessive dogma often times.
While women’s ordination scares the pants off me, the way Calvinism is experiencing a renaissance in ACNA and in Africa worries me just as much. The confusing priorities bother me as well. For example, why would men like +Iker, ++Duncan, and +Schofield care at all that the ABC recognizes them? Why is union with Canterbury at ALL even desired? We’ve heard the conservatives lambast ++Rowan as a goober who can’t make a decision and the Church of England has truly fallen to pieces in so many ways, why seek union with it? Why? Why the urgency? Since TEC is very cozy with the CofE especially monetarily and they all seem to respect each other a great deal, what is the motivation to join a communion that still recognizes the very people you split from to begin with? And as far as these “conservative” TEC parishes, why are they still TEC? How can they compromise their positions and stomach Schiori and the TEC agenda and lawsuits that are killing their brethren in ACNA with whom they share far more than TEC? I find it befuddling? And the Continuing Anglicans seem to be dying off steadily attendancewise from what I hear. Anglicanism in general is becoming more gereatric and the sense of urgency to “church plant” in ACNA is largely charismatically and calvinistically-driven. that bugs me.
Boy, I have more bugs than a PC!
I hear you and I struggle with these issues. As you know, I have spent the last year agonizing over them.
I think your point about splintering and breaking off are serious issues. Indeed, splintering takes us farther from Christian unity. That is one reason many conservative Episcopalians are not breaking from TEC, but working from within to fight for Christian orthodoxy. Jumping ship is not always the answer. There are Episcopal Priests and Bishops who are dedicated to Christ and the True Gospel. They’re not all staying for monetary reasons, i.e. pensions.
As for the Protestant Reformation, it has had many dramatic and devastating consequences that I’m sure Luther and others could never have imagined. And yes, trouble within the Anglican Communion is causing more dramatic and devastating consequences.
My choice for now is to remain in my conservative Episcopal Parish. When the breaks with TEC happen, both congregations and the communities they serve are torn apart. It gets ugly. There’s no other way to say it.
I still cannot embrace Catholicism, because it is an “all or nothing package,” as you pointed out quite awhile ago. I won’t convert, unless I can embrace Catholicism with my whole heart–because I would be expected to submit religious mind and will to the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking Ex Cathedra (LUMEN GENTIUM is an old topic for both of us.)
I don’t agree with everything within my conservative Episcopal Church, but at least I can disagree without feeling guilty about it. Catholics disagreeing with the Pope is entirely different.
Bottom line: it’s complicated.
Anna
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Anna_Scott
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I read: Address by the Rt. Rev. Paul C. Hewett, SSC, to the Synod of the Diocese of the Holy Cross, at the Pro-Cathedral Church of the Epiphany, Columbia , SC, April 30, 2010
Link: dioceseoftheholycross.org/bishop_address/bpaddress_30april10.html
“God is gathering His people, and the Anglican Communion is re-aligning. Traditional, orthodox Anglicans are working together around the world, and are communicating more with Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and believing Lutherans and evangelicals. As traditional, orthodox Anglicans. . . . .”
Rt. Rev. Paul C. Hewett expresses a desire for Christian unity.
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GKC
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That’s my bish. An extremely hard-working optimist, looking for the convergence of all orthodox liturgical faiths.
The Pro-Cathedral (my parish church) is, since 6 Jan 2011, the Cathedral of the Diocese.
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GKC
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It’s quite real, in the Continuum. Family squabbles. Generally attributable to several things:
Personal conflicts.
Purple Passion.
Drive for doctrinal purity (also known as no more* via media.*.
Makes life frustrating.
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gurneyhalleck1
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You’ve spent too much time around GKC! 
His favorite phrase along with a few others:
uh huh
oh dear
oh my
goodness gracious
etc.
I always heard people in the Midwest say “oh my lands” but that may be made up LOL. Maybe GKC could start using that or “saints alive!” LOL
His favorite phrase along with a few others:uh huh
oh dear
oh my
goodness gracious
etc.
I always heard people in the Midwest say “oh my lands” but that may be made up LOL. Maybe GKC could start using that or “saints alive!” LOL
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GKC
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I always liked Scrooge McDuck’s “Oh, my sainted aunt”.You’ve spent too much time around GKC!
uh huh
oh dear
oh my
goodness gracious
etc.
I always heard people in the Midwest say “oh my lands” but that may be made up LOL. Maybe GKC could start using that or “saints alive!” LOL
Or my grandmother’s “Oh, pshaw”.
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GKC
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JohnnyReb
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Complicated indeed Anna. When pressed about going back to Catholicism, my thoughts are similar to yours. If I were to go back to Catholicism, go to confession this Saturday, I would be returning as a Cafeteria Catholic, period. Of course the CAF/EWTN/Journey Home variety of Catholic is very much a fundamentalist Catholic. My thoughts on this recently are that such individuals often come from Fundamentalist or conservative Protestant backgrounds. They find things troubling to them in that tradition, but when they embrace Catholicism, its with a Fundy mindset. They never lose that mindset, just apply it to a differing context, Catholicism.
The splintering of Protestantism is bad, it I don’t find it as troubling as others here such as Gurney do. I find many Catholic positions on some dogmatic issues, and frankly Catholicisms dogmatic approach, to be more troubling. I cannot be a Fundementalist anymore, where that is a Catholic or a Protestant one.
In Continuing Anglicanism, at least with my parish, I find that the idea is to preach the Christian faith-the Gospel, in an Anglican context. This context connects us to the historical faith, but also connects us to the leading and movement of the Holy Spirit today. Whereas again Gurney-(sorry, I’m not picking on you or calling you out, we just agree to disagree in some areas, I think) is troubled by the Calvinist and Charismatic influences in Anglicanism, I find them welcoming, refreshing and reassuring.
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gurneyhalleck1
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Good points, Johnny. And honestly I’m a hypocrite. I’m totally aware of it. I’m at odds with the Church on some things and I just can’t swallow several concepts. It’s weird, though, how there is an intangiable emotional element to religion that one just can’t put his finger on. When I hear Ave Maria, I get a lump in my throat the size of a golf ball and honestly have wept before. It really penetrates me to the bone. And when I see a crucifix, a priest on TV, or see the pope, a Catholic Church, etc. around or on TV, as an Anglican I felt a profound sadness that I had left her—the Church I was baptized into as an infant, didn’t understand as a child and teen because we never went to Mass, and struggled to comprehend as a young man. There is a sadness, a guilt, and yet a love in a confused jumble of emotions. There are emotional components to ecclesiology that I don’t think many in here would admit to because it might seem threatening to the intellect. We CAF posters tend to be a cerebral lot who like to ponder, analyze, gaze at history, proof text, debate logic, quote Fathers and Scripture, and we kick into an intellectual dimension with ecclesiology when, as I said I don’t think most would admit, there is a profound FAITH and EMOTIONAL element that pervades our hearts. I will admit that emotion does play a role with my journey.
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JohnnyReb
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Don’t hate on yourself like that. If you’re a hypocrite, I am too, especially when I fall short of God’s will for me daily, like when some colorful language came out of my mouth in rush hour traffic this morning. Not good, and yet I can come to an online forum and split hairs about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Are my priorities always in the right place?
Faith touches the deepest core of human existence. It is where the Spirit of God reveals himself to us on the deepest, most intimate levels. Of course its an emotional thing, and its clear that in the Catholic church, God has revealed himself to you and you have grown in your faith there.
I have mentioned before that despite some my disagreements with the Baptist tradition, sometimes I wonder why I shouldn’t go back to the faith that my parents taught me the Bible and the Gospel in, or the Assemblies of God church where I put my time and energy into so much for 10 years. I miss it sometimes. Why? because those places and times were places where I was touched by the Lord, the living God. For now, I have to open myself up to what he wants for me now, today.
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Anna_Scott
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Gurney,
You’re not a hypocrite. You say what you think, even if you disagree with some aspects of Catholicism. You are not a man of pretence. Not sure LUMEN GENTIUM is ever really going to work for you deep down in your heart of hearts. Maybe I’m wrong. You may find the long desired “epiphany.” I pray for it myself.
And you are right, there is a “profound faith and emotional element that pervades our hearts.” We know Christ. We know the living and active Word of God that pierces to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow. In the end, our intellect falls short. It is the Spirit that searches us out and intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words—while we groan inwardly as we await redemption.
Yet, there remains such division among Christians—
Anna
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Anna_Scott
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JohnnyReb,
I too love the Anglican openness to the Holy Spirit.
I also have put fundamentalism behind me. Yet, sometimes Calvinist and Charismatic influences get all tangled up in a way that leads back to fundamentalism. Not sure if I’m really expressing what I mean to say. . . .
Anna
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Anna_Scott
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JohnnyReb,Don’t hate on yourself like that. If you’re a hypocrite, I am too, especially when I fall short of God’s will for me daily, like when some colorful language came out of my mouth in rush hour traffic this morning. Not good, and yet I can come to an online forum and split hairs about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Are my priorities always in the right place?
Faith touches the deepest core of human existence. It is where the Spirit of God reveals himself to us on the deepest, most intimate levels. Of course its an emotional thing, and its clear that in the Catholic church, God has revealed himself to you and you have grown in your faith there.
I have mentioned before that despite some my disagreements with the Baptist tradition, sometimes I wonder why I shouldn’t go back to the faith that my parents taught me the Bible and the Gospel in, or the Assemblies of God church where I put my time and energy into so much for 10 years. I miss it sometimes. Why? because those places and times were places where I was touched by the Lord, the living God. For now, I have to open myself up to what he wants for me now, today.
You posted this while I was writing my post #190. We said some similar things about how the Spirit of God reveals himself to us “on the deepest, most intimate levels,” as you put it.
I long for the day when we can just say, I’m a Christian. Not I’m a Catholic, or I’m an Anglican, or I’m a Baptist. I do long for Christian unity.
I grew up in the Baptist Church. Those roots are difficult to shake. After my divorce, I saw a therapist for awhile. I asked the psychologist about his religion. He said, “I’m a recovering Baptist,” with a smile that I understood very well. I forget which Church he chose after leaving the Baptist Church, but I’ll never forget his comment. I think we all have moments when we want to go back to that which is most familiar and most comfortable for us. It’s just not always the right place to go.
Anna
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Anna_Scott
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Where did everybody go??? I’m suddenly all alone on this thread. 
Did I miss the Rapture?
Anna
Did I miss the Rapture?Anna
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