How have lukewarm, lapsed, compromising Catholics affected your faith walk?

[Kendy]

Very well said. (and FYI–at 5’4," long hair and mother of 3, I’m not usually what comes to mind when one thinks of “dude.”)

My seventh graders use to say this all the time (sometimes, referring to me their young female teacher), which I thought I was very funny. Anywho, I was just being silly.

 

[setter]

As much as I hate to do this, I am going to have to agree with you somewhat… a little bit.

Kendy

This is nothing to get squirmish about.

 

[Island_Oak]

Perhaps, as Jesus did say, “Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required;” **Luke 12: 48 **

An interesting reference, but does not really answer my inquiry about the perils of judging.

By “obvious sign” I was referring to the visible, tangible evidence of lukewarmness, compromise and lapsed behavior on the part of those folks who consider themselves part of the Catholic community. A few examples: Pro-choice (i.e., pro-death) candidate stickers on the bumpers of cars in the Church perking lot; praying for all those folks not occupying the empty pews each Sunday for their spiriutal awakening/return to the fold; the scandalous statistics of Catholics who use ABC; the high rates of divorce amongst sacramentally married Catholics; the co-habitating young raised Catholic couple; …

Examples understood. But how interesting that we reveal our own flaws in the process of pointing out the flaws of others.

I am only guilty of labelling myself a “serious Catholic” by the stripes of grace hard earned. Why the personal offense?

Uh…not quite. By identifing *yourself *as a member of one group, you automatically exclude yourself from and place others into another, and one might argue, inferior group. I do find that offensive, no matter how serious you, I or anyone else believes I am or you are or are not. It is the hazard inherent in creating lables, categories, hierarchies. THAT is my problem with this rather pointless exercise. If you seek support, challenge from others in regards to your faith–there ARE ways to find it without putting others down or elevating yourself. Humilty teaches us that we can often learn valuable lessons even from the flaws, sins and weakness in others.

 

[Kendy]

Island_Oak:
An interesting reference, but does not really answer my inquiry about the perils of judging.

Examples understood. But how interesting that we reveal our own flaws in the process of pointing out the flaws of others.

Uh…not quite. By identifing *yourself *as a member of one group, you automatically exclude yourself from and place others into another, and one might argue, inferior group. I do find that offensive, no matter how serious you, I or anyone else believes I am or you are or are not. It is the hazard inherent in creating lables, categories, hierarchies. THAT is my problem with this rather pointless exercise. If you seek support, challenge from others in regards to your faith–there ARE ways to find it without putting others down or elevating yourself. Humilty teaches us that we can often learn valuable lessons even from the flaws, sins and weakness in others.

I agree that this is a pointless exercise since it will not bear any good fruit. However, I am wondering, do you never get frustrated by how lightly the faith is treated by so many in our church?

Kendy

 

[setter]

Island_Oak:
An interesting reference, but does not really answer my inquiry about the perils of judging.
I find it interesting that Christ would expect more of one who wants to be considered his serious disciple “to whom much is given”. Jesus did not seem fearful of division and correct labelling and stated at one point that he came to cause division …always put in proper context.

Examples understood. But how interesting that we reveal our own flaws in the process of pointing out the flaws of others.

How so?

Uh…not quite. By identifing *yourself *as a member of one group, you automatically exclude yourself from and place others into another, and one might argue, inferior group. I do find that offensive, no matter how serious you, I or anyone else believes I am or you are or are not. It is the hazard inherent in creating lables, categories, hierarchies. THAT is my problem with this rather pointless exercise. If you seek support, challenge from others in regards to your faith–there ARE ways to find it without putting others down or elevating yourself. Humilty teaches us that we can often learn valuable lessons even from the flaws, sins and weakness in others.

I think that you are being silly and unnecessarily over sensitive and reading into what is not intended. If other folks are offended by someone labelling themself a “serious Catholic”, then that offended party should first ask themself why is that?

Perhaps that you are guilty of equating “serious” with “prideful”. In my book, a serious Catholic is one who understands and is humbled by his/her limits and dependence upon God.

 

[mikew262]

This is more of a reflective question for serious Catholics regarding how lukewarm, lapsed, compromising Catholics have either positively or negatively impacted their faith walk? From my experience the aforementioned Catholics do not give much thought as to how their lower faith standards affect those attempting to live out their Catholic faith seriously.

I find your question insulting and inappropriate. The fact that you find it necessary to judge people on their Christian/Catholic worthiness and then label it tells me you have some further work/soul searching to do yourself. I assume you consider yourself a serious Catholic? You consider yourself better than a “compromising” one, as you see them? Perhaps the sin of Pride is raising it’s ugly head a bit?

To answer this question, I would think if your faith is strong enough, what other people do is irrelevant.

 

[setter]

I find your question insulting and inappropriate.

Then you may want to ask yourself why this is so.

To answer this question, I would think if your faith is strong enough, what other people do is irrelevant.

But, the whole point of my reflective question is that we do not live in a vacuum, that we are called to community and interrelatedness, and what one member of the family does good or bad, feeble of full of zeal, and degrees thereof, has an impact on the other family members. I simply was interested in how others have been edified or detracted by those self-evident non-serious Catholic family members.

 

[Kendy]

Then you may want to ask yourself why this is so?

But, the whole point of my reflective question is that we do not live in a vacuum, that we are called to community and interrelatedness, and what one member of the family does good or bad, feeble of full of zeal, and degrees thereof, has an impact on the other family members. I simply was interested in how others have been edified or detracted by those self-evident non-serious Catholic family members.

Setter,

Perhaps, a necessary question is what do you hope to gain by having this conversation. It does come across a little prideful, but perhaps, you have a need to vent, which os perfectly understandable. If you do, start a thread on the things that are bothering you. It might help.

Kendy

 

[mikew262]

Then you may want to ask yourself why this is so.

Because I have a problem with people who deem themselves better than others. Your question obviously made this apparent.

Perhaps you need to ask yourself a few things.

 

[manualman]

Island Oak,

I was going to post something like you did. But then I realized that it would just be judging the folks here instead of in the parish. So I adpated it as seen above.

I don’t mind admitting that I have to remind myself that God doesn’t grade on a curve. I;m not going to fool any of you into believing I’m perfect anyways.

IMO, it’s important to be honest. In our heart of hearts, we are all guilty of comparing ourselves against one another. Might as well admit it as a failure and move on, no?

 

[Island_Oak]

I think that you are being silly and unnecessarily over sensitive and reading into what is not intended. If other folks are offended by someone labelling themself a “serious Catholic”, then that offended party should first ask themself why is that?

…or perhaps the ham-handed offender should reach deep for some humility and ask why it’s more important to him to slap a label on anyone than to have a productive conversation about growing in faith and obedience; why he would risk offending brothers and sisters in faith; why he would persist in his path once he is advised he has caused offense; why he would reject other’s attempts to point out a possible problems as “silly,” “oversensitve” --even going so far as to suggest that anyone who disagrees signals a problem in themselves and not the speaker.

 

[LilyM]

I don’t want to say family members or friends are more or less serious about their Catholicism than I am, certainly I wouldn’t say I’m a better person.

I can safely say, however, that I’m more open about it. I wear a fair bit of obviously Catholic religious jewellery, for example, and have a greater-than-usual number of religious items around the home. I mention that I’m fasting in Lent to be greeted with ‘oh I don’t see the point’ and the like.

It makes it a little difficult at times. I worry about whether my actions and lifestyle will be construed as judgemental on those who don’t do the same, or simply nutty for those who don’t understand, or else turn them off of Catholicism altogether.

 

[mikew262]

…or perhaps the ham-handed offender should reach deep for some humility and ask why it’s more important to him to slap a label on anyone than to have a productive conversation about growing in faith and obedience; why he would risk offending brothers and sisters in faith; why he would persist in his path once he is advised he has caused offense; why he would reject other’s attempts to point out a possible problems as “silly,” “oversensitve” --even going so far as to suggest that anyone who disagrees signals a problem in themselves and not the speaker.

From a dedicated Cards fan: Not a bad response for a Cubs fan.

 

[gmarie21]

…or perhaps the ham-handed offender should reach deep for some humility and ask why it’s more important to him to slap a label on anyone than to have a productive conversation about growing in faith and obedience; why he would risk offending brothers and sisters in faith; why he would persist in his path once he is advised he has caused offense; why he would reject other’s attempts to point out a possible problems as “silly,” “oversensitve” --even going so far as to suggest that anyone who disagrees signals a problem in themselves and not the speaker.

You will get no where with setter. His heart seems unopen to others who have insight into the faith that differs from his. He wants all legalities, he is about the letter of the law, not the spirit. Believe me, just walk away and save yourself of the frustration that I had fallen into when trying to explain the teachings about compassion to him.

 

[jmcrae]

This is more of a reflective question for serious Catholics regarding how lukewarm, lapsed, compromising Catholics have either positively or negatively impacted their faith walk? From my experience the aforementioned Catholics do not give much thought as to how their lower faith standards affect those attempting to live out their Catholic faith seriously.

To tell you the truth, I can’t think of a single practicing Catholic I know who could be described that way.

Are there people who struggle with various teachings of the Church? Yes - I think this is perfectly normal. Someone who isn’t asking questions probably isn’t thinking at all.

Are there people who don’t participate in certain activities because they can’t see the point, or don’t realize that it’s a requirement of the Church? Sure - and I think we’ve all been there. Not even the experts seem to be completely sure where the lines are, at times - I wouldn’t expect ordinary lay people to know it all, either.

Does it make them “bad Catholics?” Not at all. It makes them ordinary people who are doing the best they can with what they have. That’s a pretty good description of me, too, when you get down to it.

 

[starling]

The problem with the initial poster’s question is that it’s hard to really define what it is that makes a so-called lapsed or compromising Catholic. First, it’s impossible to really know what is in anyone’s mind, and second, obvious piety and religiosity are not a requirement to be a Catholic. Let’s not forget that even the longest-lapsed Catholic is only a very short step back - literally a 2 minute confession away, really. Nobody is ever really gone. Sometimes, the most obviously pious and religious churchgoers are more concerned with the trappings and appearances of their religion than with actually applying it in their daily lives as they interact with the society they live in. Why the poster should feel threatened somehow by the level of obvious commitment of others to their religion shows a profound internal insecurity. The story about the Pharisees comes to mind.

Maybe he or she could take a lesson from the less openly devout, who may actually have much deeper Christian spirituality than can be seen by appearances.

You may be very strongly Catholic today, as you perceive yourself, but this may not be forever. Most people go through periods of doubt. Would you like to be judged as threatening other people’s faith during those times?

The Bible has a great many useful passages for people like you. You could learn a lot from them.

 

[Mijoy2]

I was under the belief we are called to evangelize.

How do we evangelize to if we do not “judge” who may and who may not need evangelization?

I don’t believe my particular post was being judgemental of my family members and friends who do not practice thier faith (although feel free to disagree).

I often wonder if my discouragement is in fact some form of judgement on them. But from what I know about Catholicism, witnessing someone in blatant disobedience and disregard to the teachings of the church (pro-life, pro-strip clubs, virtually never attend Mass, makes disrespectful jokes about the church etc.) may qualify as one who may need evangelization. Or at least warrant concern.

Is this being judgemental?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

May I offer an observation, or indeed a question, rather than a judgment?

Could somebody tell me how setter’s original question

regarding how lukewarm, lapsed, compromising Catholics have either positively or negatively impacted their faith walk? From my experience the aforementioned Catholics do not give much thought as to how their lower faith standards affect those attempting to live out their Catholic faith seriously

was offensive? I did not find that first post offensive at all.

I know that labels can be problematic and that no one person ‘fits’ completely into a label. But behaviors are not labels. A ‘lukewarm’ Catholic is still a Catholic, but his or her behaviors are neither hot (acceptance and living the faith) nor cold (rejection of the faith).

There are ‘lukewarm’ Catholics. There are ‘lapsed’ Catholics. There are ‘compromising’ Catholics. Not because** I** have somehow judged them, but because they have, by their actions, judged themselves. And that, of course, is the point–these are not labels, but people who have behaviors that can be changed for the better. People like Thomas A Kempis and St. Louis De Montfort, as well as Biblical writers (Revelation) address ‘the lukewarm’, and exhort them to change, lest they be ‘spewed from the mouth of God.’

Now just how can a person even speak of the reality of there being Catholics with the problems of being lukewarm, etc., when immediately they are accused of being insensitive, judgmental, offensive? If I saw a child strike another child and told the child’s mother, am I insensitive, judgmental, or offensive by giving her the necessary information (Ma’am, I saw your Buffy strike little Johnny; I thought you would want to know) so that she can take whatever steps she needs to as a parent to deal with her child’s behavior? Or do I have to be so evasive so as not to hurt her feelings or bruise Buffy’s psyche (Ma’am, there was an ‘incident’ in which your child may have been involved which you may at your convenience wish to discuss with her–or not. It’s none of my business and I’m sure you’re a wonderful parent of a wonderful child.) LOL–and the mother now has absolutely** no** idea with all that verbiage that her kid hit another kid, sees no problem with her kid–after all, you just said she was wonderful. You haven’t hurt anyone’s feelings–but you also haven’t really helped anyone (the kid, the parent, the other kid), and may have contributed to further hurt (next day Buffy might decide to hit the other kid harder).

You know, Jesus Himself was not one to hold back. People tend to focus on the ‘meek and gentle’ Jesus and ignore the phrases about "many are called but few are chosen’ etc.

I wonder what the reactions of some would be to the words of Thomas A Kempis, St. Louis De Montfort, and especially St. Alphonsus Liguori (especially if, like me, they had recently been reading his “Preparation for Death.”) These are good and holy men–no sanctimonious hypocrites, no self-righteous Pharisees, no offensive, judgmental hypocrites. . .yet they freely spoke of the dangers to people from those who are lukewarm, lapsed and compromising as well as the dangers to those people themselves.

Are we really being sensitive to the feelings of others when we ‘take offense’ at the idea of even considering that all of us–yes, you and me too–have to ‘work out our salvation with fear and trembling’ and that we–and others–can pose dangers to fellow Catholics/fellow humans with actions that are lukewarm, beliefs that have lapsed, and with trying to ‘compromise’ the truth–whatever the reason we think we have to do so?

I’m just asking. I’m far from perfect myself.

 

[jmcrae]

I was under the belief we are called to evangelize.

How do we evangelize to if we do not “judge” who may and who may not need evangelization?

We’re called to evangelize with the witness of our lives. Not to “target” individuals for “special consideration.”

Your witness should be the same to every person that you encounter. You shouldn’t be button-holing people in the corner and saying something along the lines of “Hey, I noticed that you are a terrible Catholic. Here are ten ways you could improve yourself.” (Because, yes, that would be very, very judgemental.)

But if they ask you (or if they are your child or your student) then you ought to answer their questions honestly - Yes, we must choose life, even under difficult circumstances. Yes, we are supposed to do penance every Friday. Yes, we are supposed to attend Mass every Sunday. Yes, marriage is a life-time commitment. When they ask, and when the proper teaching opportunity presents itself.

But we’re not supposed to jump all over people and tell them all their failings just straight out of nowhere.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

JM

Did the OP ever once suggest that he or anyone else should ‘buttonhole’ people or bludgeon them with all their failings?

If so, I missed it–and I think I have read all the posts so far.

I truly think that people are reading into posts things that were not said, or even implied, because of their own particular bias (not in a bad way, perhaps a better word is their own particular ‘take’ or ‘impression’) of the topic.