How important are these traditionalist issues to you?

[Justin_Swanton]

a) celebrating Holy Mass with the celebrant facing ad orientem 0/3

b) celebrating Holy Mass with the Canon recited silently 3/3

c) celebrating Holy Mass with the ordinary in Latin 1/3

d) celebrating Holy Mass with few responses from the laity 0/3

e) celebrating Holy Mass with the Asperges, Psalm 42, Secret, Last Gospel, et al. (does this mean preference of EF over OF?)

f) celebrating High Mass with chant and/or traditional hymns instead of modern music 3/3

g) only permitting Holy Communion to be received on the tongue 3/3

h) only permitting Holy Communion to be received while kneeling on altar rails 3/3

i) that dressing nicely and wearing veils are more encouraged when celebrating Holy Mass 3/3

j) that homilies more clearly stress the reality of sin, Hell, etc. 1/3 (I prefer that they stress the Faith and what living the Christian life really entails. Sin and Hell are part of this but not the principal part.)

k) that ‘liberal’ translations of the Bible are discouraged/banned compare to more ‘conservative’ translations 3/3 (but ***not ***in the sense of Douay-Reims English vs contemporary English)

l) restoring many suppressed feasts/vigils to the Roman Calendar 0/3

m) that the Holy See and bishops excommunicate politicians that support abortion, same-sex “marriage”, etc. 3/3

n) that the Holy See and bishops make specific clarifications on many teachings of Vatican II 3/3 (actually 3 to the power 20 / 3)

o) that the Holy See and bishops (more) aggressively condemn religious and moral indifferentism 2/3 (actually what they really need to do is police the catechists and catechism creators and ensure that what is being taught to parishioners is the clear and unadulterated Catholic Faith)

p) that ecumenism efforts be more stressful of the fact that the Catholic Church is the one true Church of Christ and that all others are in error 2/3 (that is already being done)

q) that church exteriors be in more traditional art forms (Romanesque, Gothic, Baroque, etc.) 3/3 (the defining mark of the modern age is the glorification of the ugly - we need to be able to escape from it)

r) that church interiors have more traditional altars, art, statues, etc. 2/3 (religious art does change in form as the centuries pass; it must just be reverent and supernatural)

s) that fasting/abstinence on Fridays is required/encouraged as they were before Vatican II 3/3

t) that the bishops ensure that all expressions of the liturgical creativity be kept within strictly monitored limits so as to preserve an atmosphere of reverence and recollection in any and every church. 3/3

u) that the bishops make it their primary duty to monitor all aspects of catechetical instruction, from the creation of catechisms to the actual teaching of catechumens and the laity, guaranteeing that the Catholic faith is taught in a clear and unadulterated form, to the exclusion of all heretical or suspect doctrines. 3/3 (actually 3 zillion / 3)

 

[OraLabora]

a) celebrating Holy Mass with the celebrant facing ad orientem 0; not part of the tradition I belong to
b) celebrating Holy Mass with the Canon recited silently 0
c) celebrating Holy Mass with the ordinary in Latin 3
d) celebrating Holy Mass with few responses from the laity 0
e) celebrating Holy Mass with the Asperges, Psalm 42, Secret, Last Gospel, et al. 0
f) celebrating High Mass with chant and/or traditional hymns instead of modern music 3
g) only permitting Holy Communion to be received on the tongue 0
h) only permitting Holy Communion to be received while kneeling on altar rails 0; this wouldn’t work in monastic settings
i) that dressing nicely and wearing veils are more encouraged when celebrating Holy Mass 1; dressing neatly yes, veils, -10 except maybe when the Pope presides
j) that homilies more clearly stress the reality of sin, Hell, etc. 0 I am completely against a Catholicism of fear.
k) that ‘liberal’ translations of the Bible are discouraged/banned compare to more ‘conservative’ translations 2
l) restoring many suppressed feasts/vigils to the Roman Calendar 0; I like the current balance; you need ordinary days so feasts don’t lose their meaning, and to give a regularity to life; those who regularly pray the Liturgy of the Hours may understand
m) that the Holy See and bishops excommunicate politicians that support abortion, same-sex “marriage”, etc. 1; I would reserve that for the most notorious cases
n) that the Holy See and bishops make specific clarifications on many teachings of Vatican II 3; long overdue; but traditionalists should be prepared to not always hear the answers they want
o) that the Holy See and bishops (more) aggressively condemn religious and moral indifferentism 3
p) that ecumenism efforts be more stressful of the fact that the Catholic Church is the one true Church of Christ and that all others are in error 0 this will not foster dialogue
q) that church exteriors be in more traditional art forms (Romanesque, Gothic, Baroque, etc.) 0 I like modern architecture for churches
r) that church interiors have more traditional altars, art, statues, etc. 0 Benedictine; prefer plain
s) that fasting/abstinence on Fridays is required/encouraged as they were before Vatican II 1 encouraged maybe, obligatory not so much
t) anything else you wish to add 3 I feel very strongly that the bishops and Holy See make traditionalists aware of the fact that their view of “traditions” in the Church tends to want to homogenize the Church to look like a snapshot of what parish life looked like at a specific moment in time, at the expense of other long-established traditions such as monastic, mendicant, etc., all of which should be allowed to influence the Church. This is probably due to the fact that these traditions are not well-known by the laity; RCIA and other programs should bring these traditions back to the people so they have a deeper understanding of where the Church came from, and what “traditions” really means.

 

[fatima12]

Hi Im new to the forum found it by chance.
I am a cradle Catholic and it is home to me. I have recently been introduced toTtraditional Catholicism so it is very new to me but I like it very much. Unfortunately where I live there isnt a group so I can only go now and again when the Traditional Mass is celebrated. I get the newsletter, I think I have found what I have been looking for.

The Catholic Church must be true to the Doctrine of Christ we were never supposed to be “modern” or to “adapt to the times” as the msm likes to repeat ad nauseam saying we should.

We are in the world but we are not supposed to be of the world …at all.

One of the many reasons I like Traditional Catholicism.

 

[roadsend]

a) celebrating Holy Mass with the celebrant facing ad orientem 2
b) celebrating Holy Mass with the Canon recited silently -1
c) celebrating Holy Mass with the ordinary in Latin 3
d) celebrating Holy Mass with few responses from the laity -1
e) celebrating Holy Mass with the Asperges, Psalm 42, Secret, Last Gospel, et al. 3
f) celebrating High Mass with chant and/or traditional hymns instead of modern music 3
g) only permitting Holy Communion to be received on the tongue 3
h) only permitting Holy Communion to be received while kneeling on altar rails 3
i) that dressing nicely and wearing veils are more encouraged when celebrating Holy Mass 2
j) that homilies more clearly stress the reality of sin, Hell, etc. 2
k) that ‘liberal’ translations of the Bible are discouraged/banned compare to more ‘conservative’ translations 3
l) restoring many suppressed feasts/vigils to the Roman Calendar 1
m) that the Holy See and bishops excommunicate politicians that support abortion, same-sex “marriage”, etc. 2
n) that the Holy See and bishops make specific clarifications on many teachings of Vatican II 3
o) that the Holy See and bishops (more) aggressively condemn religious and moral indifferentism 3
p) that ecumenism efforts be more stressful of the fact that the Catholic Church is the one true Church of Christ and that all others are in error 3
q) that church exteriors be in more traditional art forms (Romanesque, Gothic, Baroque, etc.) 2
r) that church interiors have more traditional altars, art, statues, etc. 3
s) that fasting/abstinence on Fridays is required/encouraged as they were before Vatican II 2
t) anything else you wish to add

 

[Melchior_1]

a) celebrating Holy Mass with the celebrant facing ad orientem - 0 (Mendicants don’t really care one way or another, although the preference is facing).
b) celebrating Holy Mass with the Canon recited silently - 0 (Not the biggest deal in the world IMHO).
c) celebrating Holy Mass with the ordinary in Latin - (I like understanding what is being said, so 0).
d) celebrating Holy Mass with few responses from the laity - (0, I like participating).
e) celebrating Holy Mass with the Asperges, Psalm 42, Secret, Last Gospel, et al. - (Not super essential, 0).
f) celebrating High Mass with chant and/or traditional hymns instead of modern music - (I have zero problem with modern music. 0).
g) only permitting Holy Communion to be received on the tongue - (I receive on the tongue, but I have no problem if others receive on the hand. 0).
h) only permitting Holy Communion to be received while kneeling on altar rails - (0, my favorite style of churches do not have the rails).
i) that dressing nicely and wearing veils are more encouraged when celebrating Holy Mass - (0. It’s be nice if people dressed nicely, but I don’t know folks’ circumstances. I’d rather to to them about Christ first and the Sacraments and gradually talk about their attire).
j) that homilies more clearly stress the reality of sin, Hell, etc. (1, it’d be nice to hear more of, but fearmongering isn’t effective if you hear it every week).
k) that ‘liberal’ translations of the Bible are discouraged/banned compare to more ‘conservative’ translations (Define “liberal”. If it’s got the NIHIL and Imp. and approved by local Bishops, it’s fine by me. SO 0 I guess? 1? I dunno).
l) restoring many suppressed feasts/vigils to the Roman Calendar (0. I agree with what OraLabora said).
m) that the Holy See and bishops excommunicate politicians that support abortion, same-sex “marriage”, etc. (1, extreme cases)
n) that the Holy See and bishops make specific clarifications on many teachings of Vatican II (2 or so. I think that trads have a problem with recognizing the actual Council, and their perception of the Council. Likewise for “liberals”).
o) that the Holy See and bishops (more) aggressively condemn religious and moral indifferentism (3)
p) that ecumenism efforts be more stressful of the fact that the Catholic Church is the one true Church of Christ and that all others are in error (0, because this won’t help dialogue at all. Lets look at BXVI and JP2 and how they handled the Anglicans).
q) that church exteriors be in more traditional art forms (Romanesque, Gothic, Baroque, etc.) (0, austere please)
r) that church interiors have more traditional altars, art, statues, etc. (0, austere please. Again)
s) that fasting/abstinence on Fridays is required/encouraged as they were before Vatican II - (1.5, encourage it).
t) anything else you wish to add

I agree with OraLabora with his last section. Looking at the surface, we have lots of 0’s and 1’s. Yet we’re both traditional in the sense that we follow authentic traditional groups within the church.

 

[Anthony86]

a) celebrating Holy Mass with the celebrant facing ad orientem 1/3
b) celebrating Holy Mass with the Canon recited silently 1/3
c) celebrating Holy Mass with the ordinary in Latin 2/3
d) celebrating Holy Mass with few responses from the laity 1/3
e) celebrating Holy Mass with the Asperges, Psalm 42, Secret, Last Gospel, et al. 3/3
f) celebrating High Mass with chant and/or traditional hymns instead of modern music 3/3
g) only permitting Holy Communion to be received on the tongue 2/3
h) only permitting Holy Communion to be received while kneeling on altar rails 2/3
i) that dressing nicely and wearing veils are more encouraged when celebrating Holy Mass 2/3
j) that homilies more clearly stress the reality of sin, Hell, etc. 3/3
k) that ‘liberal’ translations of the Bible are discouraged/banned compare to more ‘conservative’ translations 3/3
l) restoring many suppressed feasts/vigils to the Roman Calendar 1/3
m) that the Holy See and bishops excommunicate politicians that support abortion, same-sex “marriage”, etc. 2/3
n) that the Holy See and bishops make specific clarifications on many teachings of Vatican II 2/3
o) that the Holy See and bishops (more) aggressively condemn religious and moral indifferentism 2/3
p) that ecumenism efforts be more stressful of the fact that the Catholic Church is the one true Church of Christ and that all others are in error This requires nuance, especially in regards to the Eastern Orthodox Churches
q) that church exteriors be in more traditional art forms (Romanesque, Gothic, Baroque, etc.) 3/3
r) that church interiors have more traditional altars, art, statues, etc. 2/3
s) that fasting/abstinence on Fridays is required/encouraged as they were before Vatican II 2/3

 

[Brendan_64]

a) celebrating Holy Mass with the celebrant facing ad orientem - **Minus 3 **(Very much against this)
b) celebrating Holy Mass with the Canon recited silently - **Minus 3 **(Very much against this)
c) celebrating Holy Mass with the ordinary in Latin - Minus 3 (Very much against this)
d) celebrating Holy Mass with few responses from the laity - Minus 3 (Very much against this)
e) celebrating Holy Mass with the Asperges, Psalm 42, Secret, Last Gospel, et al. - 0
f) celebrating High Mass with chant and/or traditional hymns instead of modern music - 1
g) only permitting Holy Communion to be received on the tongue - 0
h) only permitting Holy Communion to be received while kneeling on altar rails - 0
i) that dressing nicely and wearing veils are more encouraged when celebrating Holy Mass - 0
j) that homilies more clearly stress the reality of sin, Hell, etc. - 1
k) that ‘liberal’ translations of the Bible are discouraged/banned compare to more ‘conservative’ translations - 1 (Depends what you classify as ‘liberal’. The Jerusalem Bible should be the standard. However I do like the RSV, and also, dare I say it on this forum, the NIV )
l) restoring many suppressed feasts/vigils to the Roman Calendar - 1
m) that the Holy See and bishops excommunicate politicians that support abortion, same-sex “marriage”, etc. -2 (If they publically support and promote abortion, yes).
n) that the Holy See and bishops make specific clarifications on many teachings of Vatican II - 3 (Yes, Vatican II needs to be spelt out very clearly without equivocation, and those that take issue with it ought to button their lips and fall in line).
o) that the Holy See and bishops (more) aggressively condemn religious and moral indifferentism - 3
p) that ecumenism efforts be more stressful of the fact that the Catholic Church is the one true Church of Christ and that all others are in error - 0
q) that church exteriors be in more traditional art forms (Romanesque, Gothic, Baroque, etc.) - 0
r) that church interiors have more traditional altars, art, statues, etc. - 2
s) that fasting/abstinence on Fridays is required/encouraged as they were before Vatican II - 1 (Encouraged, but not required. We are a post Vatican II Church)
t) That the Holy See insists on a rigidly defined form of the Liturgy, reflecting the current wishes and preferences of the Holy See, with both the so-called ‘traditional’ wing and the ‘liberal’ wing being compelled to fall in line with post Vatican II instruction and guidance, in order to bring us all into line as a Universal Church with a Universal Liturgy - **** 3

 

[Deo_Gratias42]

Even if the indult to receive in the hand is rescinded you would refuse to receive on the tongue? Remember that receiving on the tongue is the universal norm even in the Ordinary Form and receiving in the hand could be rescinded with the stroke of the pen.

I have a feeling the days of standing to receive communion in the hand are numbered.

 

[Bl_Pope_Pius_IX]

I have a feeling the days of standing to receive communion in the hand are numbered.

God willing.

 

[JackieMom]

3 I feel very strongly that the bishops and Holy See make traditionalists aware of the fact that their view of “traditions” in the Church tends to want to homogenize the Church to look like a snapshot of what parish life looked like at a specific moment in time, at the expense of other long-established traditions such as monastic, mendicant, etc., all of which should be allowed to influence the Church. This is probably due to the fact that these traditions are not well-known by the laity; RCIA and other programs should bring these traditions back to the people so they have a deeper understanding of where the Church came from, and what “traditions” really means.

One of the most insightful things I’ve read on CAF. The Church has 2,000 years of tradition and as many years of vocational life behind it. Simply wishing to rewind the clock back to what the parish life and social norms were like in 1950 seems like nostalgia more than anything. I’m sure in 60 years, our kids will be bemoaning their current Church and romanticizing what Mass was like “back in the early 2000s.”

 

[mburn16]

Oh I don’t know about that. A lot of churches built now aren’t even particularly well suited to kneeling to receive, unless you’re going to have people come up one at a time, kneel, then get back up. When churches were designed centuries and decades ago, there was a long row where they could approach to kneel. Not anymore.

This is a picture from my home parish - you tell me, where would you have people kneel to receive?

Image deleted by moderator, because it’s too big.

 

[Brendan_64]

This is a picture from my home parish - you tell me, where would you have people kneel to receive?

Now that is one big church. Tell me, do the ‘Traditionalists’ choose to sit in the section behind the priest (facing his back)?

 

[jwinch2]

I’m sure in 60 years, our kids will be bemoaning their current Church and romanticizing what Mass was like “back in the early 2000s.”

I very much doubt that.

Michel’s point is well taken that one cannot distill Church Tradition to only mean parish life in the 1950’s. He is quite right in that there are the various spiritual traditions which need to be taken into account as well. However, they are the minority in terms of running parishes and in reality, they can be freed to pursue their own liturgical norms without altering parish life one bit. They are referred to as “exempt religious” for a reason. There have always been differences in how diocesan priests ran things versus the abbot of a monastery which happens to reside within that same diocese. This is healthy, and good.

It is also no reason at all to avoid reforming the liturgy in diocesan parishes. If one is concerned about imposing a tradition on consecrated religious that is in conflict with their own history and spirituality, simply exempt them from the change, allow them to develop their own liturgical norms (with oversight from the Vatican of course), and move on. End of problem.

 

[Brendan_64]

Why would we want to ‘reform’ the liturgy in our individual dioceses or parishes? Should we adapt the Liturgy to meet our own individual ‘needs’?

Do we serve the Liturgy, or does the Liturgy serve us?

We are a Universal Church, we should have a Universal Liturgy. A Catholic Mass should look, sound and feel essentially the same, regardless of what church a member of the Faithful walks into, in any parish, diocese, or anywhere in the world. We are the Roman Catholic Church and our Liturgy should take the form that Rome prefers it to take (which at present sadly isn’t the case).

The Liturgy is not the property of any bishop, priest, or congregation. The Liturgy is not a ‘tool’ for us to adapt in order to meet our ‘needs’.

We serve the Liturgy. The Liturgy is not there to serve us.

 

[Deo_Gratias42]

Now that is one big church. Tell me, do the ‘Traditionalists’ choose to sit in the section behind the priest (facing his back)?

Knowing myself, I probably would. Seeing the priest’s face is such a distraction during Mass.

BTW: That is one hideously ugly church. As to kneeling, they could kneel around the raised sanctuary. Some slight modifications would be required, but that’s what you get when people don’t read the Vatican II Documents correctly thinking that Altar Rails and kneeling for communion have been done away with.

 

[Deo_Gratias42]

God willing.

If Cardinal Arinze is elected, I can almost guarantee it, along with more Latin, kneeling, and a stiff stance on Liturgical Abuse. Liberals want a Pope from Africa. Careful what you wish for. It might come true.

 

[mburn16]

“Now that is one big church. Tell me, do the ‘Traditionalists’ choose to sit in the section behind the priest (facing his back)?”

Not that I can determine. When saying Mass, the Priest faces the same direction as the camera, which in that picture is situated where the choir and …erm…band/organ performs. So being behind the Priest also frequently means having a trumpet blaring directly behind you.

 

[Brendan_64]

Knowing myself, I probably would. Seeing the priest’s face is such a distraction during Mass.

Well there you have it. A church design that meets the needs of all. Truly universal.

 

[mburn16]

If Cardinal Arinze is elected, I can almost guarantee it, along with more Latin, kneeling, and a stiff stance on Liturgical Abuse. Liberals want a Pope from Africa. Careful what you wish for. It might come true.

I love Cardinal Arinze, but he is too old now for the Throne of St. Peter. Cardinal Turkson, unfortunately, seems to subscribe to economic doctrines of which I am seriously hesitant.

Are there any other African Cardinals of a Conservative strain?

 

[Deo_Gratias42]

I love Cardinal Arinze, but he is too old now for the Throne of St. Peter.

That’s what they said about Pope Benedict when he was elected.

. So being behind the Priest also frequently means having a trumpet blaring directly behind you.

I used to be in band. That’s nothing. Try sitting in front of the trombone section with trombones blaring directly behind you, while “accidentally” hitting you in the head with their slide.