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jwinch2
Guest
As much as I like Cardinal Arinze, he is now 81. I don’t think there is any chance at all that he will be elected. However, it is is the will of God, I will welcome his pontificate.
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mburn16
Guest
And, in consideration of recent events, I think this is further evidence that the move will be to elect a younger man.
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Deo_Gratias42
Guest
Age is just a number.
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jwinch2
Guest
It can be, depending on the priest. When I find myself in such a circumstance, I either close my eyes, or try to see Christ in his place. Its obviously not a magic bullet, but it does help me at times.
J
jwinch2
Guest
Unfortunately, no it is not. The schedule that the Pope has to keep and the stamina he needs to have is incredible. If age was just a number, as you say, our current Holy Father would not be leaving. Aging is a physiological process, which affects some a bit faster than others, but affects all regardless. It has very real effects which cannot be ignored.
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JackieMom
Guest
a) celebrating Holy Mass with the celebrant facing ad orientem 0; not part of the tradition I belong to
b) celebrating Holy Mass with the Canon recited silently 0
c) celebrating Holy Mass with the ordinary in Latin 3
d) celebrating Holy Mass with few responses from the laity 0
e) celebrating Holy Mass with the Asperges, Psalm 42, Secret, Last Gospel, et al. 0
f) celebrating High Mass with chant and/or traditional hymns instead of modern music 3
g) only permitting Holy Communion to be received on the tongue 0
h) only permitting Holy Communion to be received while kneeling on altar rails 0; this wouldn’t work in monastic settings
i) that dressing nicely and wearing veils are more encouraged when celebrating Holy Mass 1; dressing neatly yes, veils, -10 except maybe when the Pope presides
j) that homilies more clearly stress the reality of sin, Hell, etc. 0 I am completely against a Catholicism of fear.
k) that ‘liberal’ translations of the Bible are discouraged/banned compare to more ‘conservative’ translations 2
l) restoring many suppressed feasts/vigils to the Roman Calendar 0; I like the current balance; you need ordinary days so feasts don’t lose their meaning, and to give a regularity to life; those who regularly pray the Liturgy of the Hours may understand
m) that the Holy See and bishops excommunicate politicians that support abortion, same-sex “marriage”, etc. 1; I would reserve that for the most notorious cases
n) that the Holy See and bishops make specific clarifications on many teachings of Vatican II 3; long overdue; but traditionalists should be prepared to not always hear the answers they want
o) that the Holy See and bishops (more) aggressively condemn religious and moral indifferentism 3
p) that ecumenism efforts be more stressful of the fact that the Catholic Church is the one true Church of Christ and that all others are in error 0 this will not foster dialogue
q) that church exteriors be in more traditional art forms (Romanesque, Gothic, Baroque, etc.) 0 I like modern architecture for churches
r) that church interiors have more traditional altars, art, statues, etc. 0 Benedictine; prefer plain
s) that fasting/abstinence on Fridays is required/encouraged as they were before Vatican II 1 encouraged maybe, obligatory not so much
t) anything else you wish to add3 I feel very strongly that the bishops and Holy See make traditionalists aware of the fact that their view of “traditions” in the Church tends to want to homogenize the Church to look like a snapshot of what parish life looked like at a specific moment in time, at the expense of other long-established traditions such as monastic, mendicant, etc., all of which should be allowed to influence the Church. This is probably due to the fact that these traditions are not well-known by the laity; RCIA and other programs should bring these traditions back to the people so they have a deeper understanding of where the Church came from, and what “traditions” really means.
My parish looks almost exactly like that. No kneelers at all, either. There is simply NO kneeling throughout the entirety of the Mass. And you couldn’t face away from the priest if you tried. He moves around!
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jwinch2
Guest
I hate to say this, but I find that idea to be awful.
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mburn16
Guest
Despite being relatively austere in terms of artwork, etc…the interior isn’t exactly unsatisfying. While we can talk about the desire for a raised sanctuary cordoned off with rails, the interior is a very high, light-filled ceiling that feels appropriate to me for worship. this is particularly true when you can look up and see the clouds of incense smoke.
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Brendan_64
Guest
I’m not so sure. Pope Benedict didn’t stand down because he was too old, he stood down because his health was failing. Cardinal Arinze seems a fit and healthy man, and 6 or 7 years with him as Pope might be just what our Church needs at this present time.
We need someone to take a very strong and unwielding stance against the forces of liberal secularism that are attacking us from all sides. We also need someone who can reign in our Church (from both wings) to a centre ground so that we act and behave united as one, in order to stand resolutely against the forces that will go on attacking us with increasing ferocity.
I for one (as a traditional Vatican II centrist) would be extremely happy with Cardinal Arinze as Pope.
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JackieMom
Guest
It was very odd at first. I guess I’m used to it now. It’s a Catholic Church in good standing with the archdiocese, so I accept it.
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fatima12
Guest
Thats awful.
We should prostrate before the Holy Eucharist in humility. The Angel in the Fatima apparitions told the children they should pray prostrate with their forehead touching the ground.
Humility is essential.
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AnastasiaRomano
Guest
When I was in college, I went to a church similar to yours, with a modern layout and no kneelers. Apparently they hadn’t had kneelers since a church renovation in the late 70s or early 80s. Like at your church, people stood rather than knelt at the consecration etc.
After a new bishop was appointed for that diocese, he came and offered Mass at that parish a few times, and before each Mass he reminded everyone that (kneelers or not), they were to kneel at the proper times. The parish continued in its old practices when the bishop wasn’t there, because it was difficult to kneel on the floor. Then, one day kneelers just showed up at the parish – apparently the diocese itself made the arrangements for their installation… (Unfortunately this was just before I graduated so I didn’t get the chance to use the new kneelers for more than a few weeks.)
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Anthony86
Guest
Altar rails could be placed in a circle around the altar.
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JackieMom
Guest
Yes. Our church was built like this from the get go. I think it would be hard to install kneelers now because we have individual chairs, not pews. We have the same chairs in the tabernacle chapel and there are individual kneelers in there, but there are only about ten seats. Bishop Curry just resigned, and he was head of our pastoral region. Maybe the new bishop will not like our setup, but every priest we’ve ever had seems to think it’s thecat’s pajamas.
There is a lot about our church that traditionalists would hate. The tabernacle is a big copper urn that looks like a native American object, and the crucifix in the tabernacle chapel is an abstract arrangement of sea shells on drift wood. You have to stare at it to “get it.”
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mburn16
Guest
Ours is located in a private chapel with glass walls so it is viewable from other areas. Its a smaller box design:
http://ctredeemer.org/content/tabernacle_lrg.jpg
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OraLabora
Guest
This isn’t quite accurate. At monastic churches it has always been the practice to come up two at a time to the cloister gate or rood screen to receive. There never were communion rails. And in many places in medieval times the monastery was where one went to church.
This is what I mean by “traditionalists” not actually having a good sense of Church traditions (most likely through lack of exposure). I feel strongly that the bishops need to educate more on this aspect of Church history or we will be in very grave danger of losing very important traditions.
There’s a church in a nearby town that was designed by a Benedictine architect, Dom Bellot who spent some years at our abbey. He designed many churches and a couple of abbeys as well. His influence spread far and wide (and this was before Vatican II).
Traditionalism that ignores or attempts to homogenize legitimate Church traditions is not a true “traditionalism” but rather as was pointed out, it is nostalgia.
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smndtupidisaftr
Guest
3 a) celebrating Holy Mass with the celebrant facing ad orientem
1 b) celebrating Holy Mass with the Canon recited silently
3 c) celebrating Holy Mass with the ordinary in Latin
1 d) celebrating Holy Mass with few responses from the laity
3 e) celebrating Holy Mass with the Asperges, Psalm 42, Secret, Last Gospel, et al.
33333333333f) celebrating High Mass with chant and/or traditional hymns instead of modern music
3 g) only permitting Holy Communion to be received on the tongue
3 h) only permitting Holy Communion to be received while kneeling on altar rails
3 i) that dressing nicely and wearing veils are more encouraged when celebrating Holy Mass
3 j) that homilies more clearly stress the reality of sin, Hell, etc.
1 k) that ‘liberal’ translations of the Bible are discouraged/banned compare to more ‘conservative’ translations
2 l) restoring many suppressed feasts/vigils to the Roman Calendar
2 m) that the Holy See and bishops excommunicate politicians that support abortion, same-sex “marriage”, etc.
2 n) that the Holy See and bishops make specific clarifications on many teachings of Vatican II
3 o) that the Holy See and bishops (more) aggressively condemn religious and moral indifferentism
2 p) that ecumenism efforts be more stressful of the fact that the Catholic Church is the one true Church of Christ and that all others are in error
3 q) that church exteriors be in more traditional art forms (Romanesque, Gothic, Baroque, etc.)
3 r) that church interiors have more traditional altars, art, statues, etc.
3 s) that fasting/abstinence on Fridays is required/encouraged as they were before Vatican II
I’m hesitant about excommunicating those rather than just withholding Communion for those who publically support it.
1 b) celebrating Holy Mass with the Canon recited silently
3 c) celebrating Holy Mass with the ordinary in Latin
1 d) celebrating Holy Mass with few responses from the laity
3 e) celebrating Holy Mass with the Asperges, Psalm 42, Secret, Last Gospel, et al.
33333333333f) celebrating High Mass with chant and/or traditional hymns instead of modern music
3 g) only permitting Holy Communion to be received on the tongue
3 h) only permitting Holy Communion to be received while kneeling on altar rails
3 i) that dressing nicely and wearing veils are more encouraged when celebrating Holy Mass
3 j) that homilies more clearly stress the reality of sin, Hell, etc.
1 k) that ‘liberal’ translations of the Bible are discouraged/banned compare to more ‘conservative’ translations
2 l) restoring many suppressed feasts/vigils to the Roman Calendar
2 m) that the Holy See and bishops excommunicate politicians that support abortion, same-sex “marriage”, etc.
2 n) that the Holy See and bishops make specific clarifications on many teachings of Vatican II
3 o) that the Holy See and bishops (more) aggressively condemn religious and moral indifferentism
2 p) that ecumenism efforts be more stressful of the fact that the Catholic Church is the one true Church of Christ and that all others are in error
3 q) that church exteriors be in more traditional art forms (Romanesque, Gothic, Baroque, etc.)
3 r) that church interiors have more traditional altars, art, statues, etc.
3 s) that fasting/abstinence on Fridays is required/encouraged as they were before Vatican II
I’m hesitant about excommunicating those rather than just withholding Communion for those who publically support it.
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Elizabeth502
Guest
And what would those be?
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OraLabora
Guest
A good example would be the narrow interpretation many traditionalists assign to “Extra ecclesiam, nulla salus”. Another might be the retention or at least allowing as an option of certain liturgical practices the traditionalists don’t like, such as versus populum.
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Elizabeth502
Guest
Hopefully, a well-informed lay Catholic would know all that, including most traditionalists, I would hope (and think).
I would be far more interested in the Vatican clarifying the misinterpretations of freedom of conscience, an explanation of how conscience is formed and how crucial prayer is in the development of that conformed conscience, as well as what are the fixed, absolute doctrines and what exactly the word absolute means. (It’s always an education to discover how many people do not understand the term “absolute.”)
It would also help to illuminate the limits of “participation of the laity.” Many people do not understand that to mean participation in the lay ministries of the Church, or even participation (as licit) in liturgy, but rather to mean “participation” in criticism and rejection of moral doctrine, selectively. I am not being sarcastic or mocking. I am being accurate & truthful. “Participation,” to many modernist Catholics, means licence to accept & reject, IOW to bind and to loose, on their own.
Like you, Ora, I am not in favor of “a Catholicism of fear,” but I actually agree with a number of CAF’ers who regret the absence of the discussion of sin, including at homilies. The reason I say that (and they probably say that), is that a small minority of Catholics avail themselves of spiritual resouces outside of their one weekly Mass opportunity. If they never read enough, watch enough, etc., to understand how pervasive sin is in all of our lives (esp. the Capital Sins), then they tend to have a narrow view of their own culpability and their accompanying abundant opportunity for healing and growth.
I’m grateful and relieved to be confronted by my sins: it brings me into the confessional for spiritual healing, more often. Most Catholics do not think enough of the many ways we sin (rejecting others, ignoring others, being indifferent to others) and the many sins of omission we commit. Too many think that only virtually criminal acts should bring them to the confessional, or cause them to examine their lives. We all should be examining our lives daily for the many ways we let sin control us, casually. It often takes others to give us that wake-up call. Priests being so familiar with the many variations of sin, and perceptions of sin due to being confessors, can be excellent communicators in this regard.
So I don’t see it as an opportunity for terror but an opporunity for intimacy: knowledge, acknowledgement, repentance, and appropriate dependency on Grace.
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