How important is virginity to people in a new relationship?

[enterthenewage]

To manualman:
I rarely discuss the topic in person. My friends and family already know how I feel about the issue. I don’t go around in person bragging about how I’m a virgin, because as the bible points out, there is no purpose for it.

To The Bucket:
I’m considering stuff from a secular financial viewpoint because Catholics are not exempt from paying bills and competing in the capitalist economy. Jesus is not going to make power stream through the wires in my home if the electric company shuts off service for nonpayment. Marriage is a very risky proposition for men these days when you consider how biased family courts are towards men. If I’m going to put all that effort into a relationship and take that many risks, there better be something in it for me. Women already have plenty of incentives, since the legal institution is basically aimed at forcing the man to stay with her. But what do men have? The courts give women handsome divorce settlements, alimony, child custody and lots of other perks. The question I ask myself is this "What can I get from marriage that I CANNOT get from cohabitation with any regular woman? The answer to that question is virginity, since only the most ultraconservative women tend to be virgins. If I met a catholic girl who lost her virginity (which I already have in the past) I don’t even bother just because I can get a non-virgin woman with significantly less effort. By better people I mean they are more desirable, the bonding process through sex will be stronger, there won’t be emotional issues stemming from past sexual partnerships, and it’s a sign of respect. What makes you think serious catholics don’t want to be first as well? You are very noisy when talking about forgiveness, but you have no effective rebuttal to what I said earlier about the church going downhill, resulting in a narrower selection of suitable mates. Call me delusional all you want. But many people have turned away from the church because they feel they can’t have a down to earth conversation with serious catholics. Many are realizing they can love a person without marrying them. The reason things did not go any further with that girl was that she turned out to be a bisexual atheist who also had mental health issues. The problem with telling the truth is that often people have to pick between how nice they are going to be and how much they want to disclore. I usually pick the latter. I thought I already answered that question about why virginity is a dealbreaker, but I will repeat it again. I don’t see anything in marriage that makes me say to myself “I want to have a relationship like that” other than virginity. All of the other perks of marriage can be enjoyed outside of marriage. I’m not the type who does extra work for nothing. Extra work = extra reward The second part of my answer is that sex is a very personal thing. When I was in my teens, I did read my bible while people were hooking up and messing around. I at least want the benefit of having a virgin, sexually pure wife. If I had hooked up in high school with a few girls, I probably would be indifferent to sex having a special meaning, since it would be a mundane bodily function. However, waiting for over two decades changes people, and this is how it changed me. My comment regarding different generations was geared towards TheWarriorMonk, since that could be the reason why he feels the need to keep that info private and I don’t. If you were willing to accept a non-virgin wife, then more power to you. I am not you and I don’t operate the same way you do.

To BlueEyedLady:
My views are based on my own critical thinking, as well as the hoards of married people I see all over the place. If I’m so naive about marriage, then why are a lot of formerly married men saying marriage is a scam?

To Xantippe:
I already addressed the financial aspect in my response to The Bucket. Virginity and prolife are not my only requirements. I said they are my HARDEST requirements. Love can exist outside of marriage, so that by itself isn’t enough in my eyes to warrant a marriage. Loving a person who meets your checklist is. I don’t know how many times I have to say it, but there is no point in wasting time on a person you are going to dump because they aren’t a virgin. That should be done by the 2nd date at the latest in my eyes.

To The Bucket 2nd:
People get tossed aside all the time for things they might not necessarily have control, like physical appearance or money. Why should virginity be off limits? If anything, it’s an even more acceptable criteria for rejecting a person because it’s actually something people have control over. We don’t have to sign our lives over to people who we don’t like, and what we like is determined by us.

 

[Galbin]

If I’m going to put all that effort into a relationship and take that many risks, there better be something in it for me. Women already have plenty of incentives, since the legal institution is basically aimed at forcing the man to stay with her. But what do men have? The courts give women handsome divorce settlements, alimony, child custody and lots of other perks. The question I ask myself is this "What can I get from marriage that I CANNOT get from cohabitation with any regular woman? .

Your union would be blessed by God in the sacrament of marriage. I cannot explain how spiritually moving that is. You also would be declaring to the world that this person is the love of your life and that they feel the same. You cannot get either of those things from just living together. This is why even atheists get married.

 

[CesarAugustus]

If I was open to being with a non-virgin, which I’m not, I would rather just skip the hardcore non-virgin catholic girls altogether and get with a girl who is Catholic in name only and doesn’t care about marriage. Yes yes, I know it’s a sin, but I wouldn’t really care.

How you can say that? How you say that you don’t care is a sin?

A serious Catholic woman that isn’t virgin is still way better than a non-practicing Catholic, etc.

While you make some good points about the eroding of Catholics standards in society, various things you have said are very harsh.

Your union would be blessed by God in the sacrament of marriage. I cannot explain how spiritually moving that is. You also would be declaring to the world that this person is the love of your life and that they feel the same. You cannot get either of those things from just living together. This is why even atheists get married.

I agree.

Remember about the benefits of marriage from a Catholic viewpoint.

 

[Xantippe]

manualman said:

“A past history of fornication really does cause lasting damage to one’s potential in marriage.”

And yet, it is possible to unlearn bad habits and with time and effort to learn to be chaste and a good spouse–not instantly, but with time and effort, it can be done.

It’s like dealing with ugly wallpaper. It’s a nuisance, but if you take the time and effort, it can be stripped off and the wall repainted so that nobody but the remodeler would know how terrible it used to be. But you definitely can’t just paint over it.

But the effort and pain involved are excellent reasons to avoid unchastity and wallpaper.

I like the scene in C.S. Lewis’s Voyage of the Dawn Treader where Eustace is saved from being a dragon–the ugly thick scales need to be ripped off. A painful process, but worthwhile.`

I also have to mention that it is possible to be unchaste all by oneself. It isn’t necessary to fornicate to be unchaste and it is possible to be unchaste and a virgin.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

To manualman:
I rarely discuss the topic in person. My friends and family already know how I feel about the issue. I don’t go around in person bragging about how I’m a virgin, because as the bible points out, there is no purpose for it.

To The Bucket:
I’m considering stuff from a secular financial viewpoint because Catholics are not exempt from paying bills and competing in the capitalist economy. Jesus is not going to make power stream through the wires in my home if the electric company shuts off service for nonpayment. Marriage is a very risky proposition for men these days when you consider how biased family courts are towards men. If I’m going to put all that effort into a relationship and take that many risks, there better be something in it for me. Women already have plenty of incentives, since the legal institution is basically aimed at forcing the man to stay with her. But what do men have? The courts give women handsome divorce settlements, alimony, child custody and lots of other perks. The question I ask myself is this "What can I get from marriage that I CANNOT get from cohabitation with any regular woman? The answer to that question is virginity, since only the most ultraconservative women tend to be virgins. If I met a catholic girl who lost her virginity (which I already have in the past) I don’t even bother just because I can get a non-virgin woman with significantly less effort. By better people I mean they are more desirable, the bonding process through sex will be stronger, there won’t be emotional issues stemming from past sexual partnerships, and it’s a sign of respect. What makes you think serious catholics don’t want to be first as well? You are very noisy when talking about forgiveness, but you have no effective rebuttal to what I said earlier about the church going downhill, resulting in a narrower selection of suitable mates. Call me delusional all you want. But many people have turned away from the church because they feel they can’t have a down to earth conversation with serious catholics. Many are realizing they can love a person without marrying them. The reason things did not go any further with that girl was that she turned out to be a bisexual atheist who also had mental health issues. The problem with telling the truth is that often people have to pick between how nice they are going to be and how much they want to disclore. I usually pick the latter. I thought I already answered that question about why virginity is a dealbreaker, but I will repeat it again. I don’t see anything in marriage that makes me say to myself “I want to have a relationship like that” other than virginity. All of the other perks of marriage can be enjoyed outside of marriage. I’m not the type who does extra work for nothing. Extra work = extra reward The second part of my answer is that sex is a very personal thing. When I was in my teens, I did read my bible while people were hooking up and messing around. I at least want the benefit of having a virgin, sexually pure wife. If I had hooked up in high school with a few girls, I probably would be indifferent to sex having a special meaning, since it would be a mundane bodily function. However, waiting for over two decades changes people, and this is how it changed me. My comment regarding different generations was geared towards TheWarriorMonk, since that could be the reason why he feels the need to keep that info private and I don’t. If you were willing to accept a non-virgin wife, then more power to you. I am not you and I don’t operate the same way you do.

To BlueEyedLady:
My views are based on my own critical thinking, as well as the hoards of married people I see all over the place. If I’m so naive about marriage, then why are a lot of formerly married men saying marriage is a scam?

To Xantippe:
I already addressed the financial aspect in my response to The Bucket. Virginity and prolife are not my only requirements. I said they are my HARDEST requirements. Love can exist outside of marriage, so that by itself isn’t enough in my eyes to warrant a marriage. Loving a person who meets your checklist is. I don’t know how many times I have to say it, but there is no point in wasting time on a person you are going to dump because they aren’t a virgin. That should be done by the 2nd date at the latest in my eyes.

To The Bucket 2nd:
People get tossed aside all the time for things they might not necessarily have control, like physical appearance or money. Why should virginity be off limits? If anything, it’s an even more acceptable criteria for rejecting a person because it’s actually something people have control over. We don’t have to sign our lives over to people who we don’t like, and what we like is determined by us.

If you have such a low opinion of marriage, then why would a woman want to save her virginity for you?

It’s really sweet that you know so much about what its like to be married because you’ve seen married people in your life. That’s like saying that I’m qualified to be a doctor because I’ve been going to one my whole life. When it comes to other people’s marriages, you only see a very small fraction of what is there. And I mean a very small fraction.

 

[Xantippe]

enterthenewage said:

“Women already have plenty of incentives, since the legal institution is basically aimed at forcing the man to stay with her. But what do men have? The courts give women handsome divorce settlements, alimony, child custody and lots of other perks.”

In a purely worldly sense, there are major payoffs. On average, married men make more money, live longer and of course have more kids. Marriage is a gamble, but even in a purely worldly sense, the rewards are very high. Some people lose big, but just as many win big. It’s like a lottery where at least 50% of the players win.

My grandparents, for instance, are 88 and 92 and have been married nearly 68 years. They have worked hard (grandpa worked into his early 70s at a mill and they’ve just now given up farming), been prudent with money, raised a family, enjoyed grandchildren and are now seeing their great-grandchildren appear. Both of them are starting to get health problems (grandpa has had one hip replaced twice–he wore out the first one and grandma has lost a lot of her vision). Thanks to the fact that there are two of them, they’ve been able to stay in their house, helping each other and getting on pretty well, despite increasing frailty. (“Nursing home” is just about the dirtiest word my grandma knows.)

When a marriage works, there is nothing like it–it blesses both the couple and dozens and hundreds of other people. And–very importantly–it won’t work if either party is primarily concerned with what’s in it for them.

 

[on_the_hill]

A past history of fornication really does cause lasting damage to one’s potential in marriage.

Of all the things people post here, it’s this notion that always rubs me the wrong way. Neither my wife nor I were virgins when we met. Yet we’ve been happily married for almost 20 years. .

The biggest problem with such statements is that one’s “potential in marriage” is entirely subjective, and there is absolutely no way to know whether a virgin marriage is better than a non-virgin marriage. You can’t be a virgin, get married, see what it’s like, then get married again and compare the two marriages.

And somewhere up there in the posts, someone equated non-virginity with being a heroin addict. SRSLY? #getaclue.

And virgins are more valued than non-virgins by the secular world? Only in the sense of “bros” who are looking to deflower the new girl on campus.

I’ve been reading this thread purely for the entertainment value, but now it’s getting too much like Fox News. Just too frustrating even for a laugh.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

If I was open to being with a non-virgin, which I’m not, I would rather just skip the hardcore non-virgin catholic girls altogether and get with a girl who is Catholic in name only and doesn’t care about marriage

So you wouldn’t mind a virgin like my first wife, who couldn’t give a damn about the Church, believed in abortion, contraception, sleeping around, having threesomes, etc.?

Or would you rather have someone like my second wife, who had a child in high school, admitted her mistakes, and is the most loving, beautiful, and faithful person you can possibly imagine?

I’m going to hammer this point home again…it’s not about virginity…it’s about morals. Virginity without morals is a waste…

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

If you’re serious, I don’t know why you think it’s appropriate to lay out these “dealbreakers” in that kind of fashion. It’s incredibly off-putting. It’s totally fine to have legit dealbreakers, but you don’t lead off with that. To your earlier point, dates are strangers. You don’t bust all of that out without giving the person a chance to express to you who she is as a human being.

Another factor that plays in is age and experience. I’m married, I’ve had my children late in life (though they’re still fairly young). I’d just lay it out on the first date, though, as noted previously, I wouldn’t expect direct answers, nor would I care what they thought of me.

Now if I were in my 20s, I most definitely would handle things differently.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

So you wouldn’t mind a virgin like my first wife, who couldn’t give a damn about the Church, believed in abortion, contraception, sleeping around, having threesomes, etc.?

Or would you rather have someone like my second wife, who had a child in high school, admitted her mistakes, and is the most loving, beautiful, and faithful person you can possibly imagine?

I’m going to hammer this point home again…it’s not about virginity…it’s about morals. Virginity without morals is a waste…

You’re misunderstanding him. It’s not that there’s anything wrong with your wife, it’s just that he deserves better than your wife.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

You’re misunderstanding him. It’s not that there’s anything wrong with your wife, it’s just that he deserves better than your wife.

I could care less.

We all like to brag about those we love…but my wife is extraordinary. I used to describe her as the type of person that could substitute for Oprah on the Oprah show, with no preparation, and show up Oprah. People would think I was joking, then they’d meet her, and say, “Holy Cow, you weren’t kidding!” I even got her on a major TV show doing BG work (though a contact of mine), and they can’t top calling her because they love her so much…and keep in mind she has ZERO acting experience.

Really, honestly and humbly, the point is not to brag. It is simply to demonstrate that by not considering 99% of the population for marriage due to narrow criteria, one may be throwing out not only a gem, but their perfect match. I had the virgin in my first marriage, and it was a friggin’ disaster. I had the “much less than perfect” wife in the second marriage, in terms of sexual indiscretions. However, she is now the most faithful, honest, loving person I can imagine. Why “dispose” of such a person because of past mistakes?

 

[SecretCatholic]

The reason this discussion is taking place is that christendom is a melting iceberg.

No. The reason it is taking place is because you are stating very un-Christ-like things with a veneer of it being caused by, or related to, an authentic Christian mindset. And it is not. It could hardly be farther away from it. One of the things that pulls me towards Catholisism, in spite of my imperfect faith, is Jesus’ strong, but infinitely loving message. He strongly warns us of the dangers and consequences of sin, but he just needs to “say the word” and “we shall be healed”, no matter what we’ve done or how “damaged” we are. He does not say to love Chrisitans alone- after all, the pagans do that- he tells us to love and forgive our very enemies. Commonly repeated words, but advice that is hardly ever followed, because it is so difficult- so “impractical” and against our fallen “nature”.

Virginity is also another way that one can distinguish him/herself (just like with a college education). People would not be getting college degrees if they didn’t think their future would be easier.

Yes, and the bubble is bursting. College wasn’t meant to be a gateway to a better job. It wasn’t meant to make you “better”. A college educated person is in no way “better” than someone who went straight into a vocation. College was simply supposed to be for people who wanted to be in more “intellectual” careers, and who had a passion for such things, not merely a passion for more money. I am “college-educated” and let me tell you that its over-rated intellectually and job-wise. College is the new high school. I actually do want to go on to more advanced college classes, just because I like the learning environment, but I won’t take out any more loans, because I know I won’t be able to pay them off- being better educated actually won’t help me get a better job anymore.

The reason that more and more people are going into college is for better pay, yes, but indirectly that’s because the American economy is tanking and soon a few masters and a handful of PH Ds won’t get you the same living standard that a mechanic had a few decades ago. And no, a lawyer is not inherently more valuable than a mechanic. It all depends on your needs, of course. An NFL coach is not inherently more valuable than an astrophysicists, yet NFL coaches are often much more generously compensated. Yes, the MARKET places a higher economic value on one than the other, based on supply and demand, etc. etc… But this has little to do with the intrinsic value of the person or even his/her skills and it would be grand mistake to take this kind of thinking into the bedroom or your marriage vows.

You view the world in a very competitive and hierarchical way- and that is true to an extent, but you are only seeing one dimension of humanity- actually the one that is helping to tear Christian values out of society- and totally missing the aspect of cooperation and love that successful marriages- and societies- are all about. You need to balance it all out, and your view is extremely skewed.

 

[SecretCatholic]

To SecretCatholic:
Seriously, you can’t imagine how goofy that argument sounded. It’s better to have something to be proud of than to be in an alleyway passed out with a heroin syringe sticking out of your arm. People are constantly judging one another, even if it’s subconscious. Every person I know would agree that a college graduate is more valuable as a human being than a heroin user. This is not according to god’s grace. This is according to what people think and what people do.

But excessive pride is a sin.
Yes, we all “judge” one another. It’s needed. I need to “judge” whether someone is dangerous to me and my family or not. I need to judge whether I can trust someone or not. I need to judge whether someone is reliable or not. I need to judge whether someone is toxic for me or not. But as Christians we are called not to judge others sins- only their effects on us- or become smug for being “more humble than thou art”!

And NO, a “heroin user” is not “less valuable” than a “college graduate” as a human being! This is contrary to Christian values! Apart from the fact that the two groups are certainly NOT mutually exclusive, the “heroin user” might be a much better person than the “college graduate” but have more of an issue dealing with a certain kind of temptation for some reason. The “college graduate” would certainly be a more valuable employee than the “heroin user”, but that does not comment on the value of either a human beings. Some of the most sensitive people have trouble contending with the harsh, fallen nature of the world and give in to the temptation of drugs, alcohol and sexual sin as an improper method of managing their despair.

Frankly, I make “judgements” on persons value as a potential friend, etc… based upon that person’s own values and his/her propensity to listen to his/her own conscious and follow through with it. Nevetheless, even this “judging” is not the true Godly measure of a human being. Stalin was not less valuable as a human being than Mother Teresa before death, but they both made their choices whether to turn away or towards God/goodness. Stalin was less valuable as a GOOD human being during his lifetime though, because he turned AWAY from his goodness and humanly I would have judged him less as someone I would have wanted to be friends with, but God’s judgement is what truly counts at the end, of course, not mine.

To God, both you and every other member on this forum are equal in value. To me, based upon what you have stated, I recognize this fact, but I am also very turned off by your un-Christ-like values and your continual defense of them as “practical”, etc… I would much rather be friends with the self-described atheist on this thread who exhibits much more Christ-like values than you. On the other hand, Christ commands me to love everyone, even my enemies, and perhaps what you need is a friend to show you the way or simply love you so that you can “get it”, so that keeps me from “casting the first stone”.

I honestly would not care 1% if she was willing to follow catholic teaching at that point on, because what’s the point? They already gave away their virginity. Why should I put in all that work for a non-virgin when I can get a non-virgin without marriage and much more easily (I don’t want them anyway, but this hypothetical example illustrates my point). You wouldn’t get gasoline at $3.75/gallon if the station down the road sells it for $3.00.

You see people as things, as commodities. You have arbitrarily singled out an attribute and decided that it is more important than the person’s current beliefs, intent, direction and general humanity.

Virginity or the lack of it fits into a special category because it becomes a personal kick in the face to a virgin spouse if they come along. If I was with a girl and she told me she once did LSD, set someone’s convertible on fire, or shot her neighbor’s dog as revenge, I would not be as important as the lack of virginity.

It sounds to me like you would feel sexually inadequate in a relationship with a non-virgin, in addition to your apparent pride.

I’m considering stuff from a secular financial viewpoint because Catholics are not exempt from paying bills and competing in the capitalist economy. Jesus is not going to make power stream through the wires in my home if the electric company shuts off service for nonpayment.

As a Catholic, you can manage your finances as you wish, as long as it doesn’t conflict with Catholic teaching. But the Bible and Catholicism does give us guidelines in how to act with money, bills, debts, etc. which we should follow, whether the electricity stays on or not. Often performing good deeds in this fallen world will cause you negative consequences. It did for Jesus and many of his disciples and followers.

I really hope and pray that you change your viewpoint to a more Christian one.

 

[enterthenewage]

Your union would be blessed by God in the sacrament of marriage. I cannot explain how spiritually moving that is. You also would be declaring to the world that this person is the love of your life and that they feel the same. You cannot get either of those things from just living together. This is why even atheists get married.

The only problem is that in the case of a non-virgin, the union would not be special enough for me to warrant such a celebration. Being a woman’s first sexual partner would mean exponentially more to me than the sacrament itself and the opportunity to declare that stuff in public. I would rather retain full control over my financial future than get married to a girl who isn’t a virgin.

How you can say that? How you say that you don’t care is a sin?

A serious Catholic woman that isn’t virgin is still way better than a non-practicing Catholic, etc.

While you make some good points about the eroding of Catholics standards in society, various things you have said are very harsh.

I agree.

Remember about the benefits of marriage from a Catholic viewpoint.

Regardless if the woman is practicing or not, if she is not a virgin, I don’t want a relationship with her. I would accept a virgin non-practicing Catholic woman AS LONG AS she was pro-life, not a cheater, and met the rest of the requirements I have.

If you have such a low opinion of marriage, then why would a woman want to save her virginity for you?

It’s really sweet that you know so much about what its like to be married because you’ve seen married people in your life. That’s like saying that I’m qualified to be a doctor because I’ve been going to one my whole life. When it comes to other people’s marriages, you only see a very small fraction of what is there. And I mean a very small fraction.

Because I saved my virginity for her, that’s why. Lol I know right? 50% of marriages ending in divorce is such a small fraction

enterthenewage said:

“Women already have plenty of incentives, since the legal institution is basically aimed at forcing the man to stay with her. But what do men have? The courts give women handsome divorce settlements, alimony, child custody and lots of other perks.”

In a purely worldly sense, there are major payoffs. On average, married men make more money, live longer and of course have more kids. Marriage is a gamble, but even in a purely worldly sense, the rewards are very high. Some people lose big, but just as many win big. It’s like a lottery where at least 50% of the players win.

My grandparents, for instance, are 88 and 92 and have been married nearly 68 years. They have worked hard (grandpa worked into his early 70s at a mill and they’ve just now given up farming), been prudent with money, raised a family, enjoyed grandchildren and are now seeing their great-grandchildren appear. Both of them are starting to get health problems (grandpa has had one hip replaced twice–he wore out the first one and grandma has lost a lot of her vision). Thanks to the fact that there are two of them, they’ve been able to stay in their house, helping each other and getting on pretty well, despite increasing frailty. (“Nursing home” is just about the dirtiest word my grandma knows.)

When a marriage works, there is nothing like it–it blesses both the couple and dozens and hundreds of other people. And–very importantly–it won’t work if either party is primarily concerned with what’s in it for them.

Yeah there are major payoffs for women. Even when the marriage goes well, the payoffs are nowhere near as high for the man as they are for the woman, because moderm marriage is just a modern form of indentured servitude for men.

And somewhere up there in the posts, someone equated non-virginity with being a heroin addict. SRSLY? #getaclue.

And virgins are more valued than non-virgins by the secular world? Only in the sense of “bros” who are looking to deflower the new girl on campus.

I made the heroin addict analogy for the purpose of showing that society places higher values on different types of people. Heroin addicts are obviously much lower quality than normal people. Get real, virgins are prized by most guys, not just bros looking to pop a few cherries.

So you wouldn’t mind a virgin like my first wife, who couldn’t give a damn about the Church, believed in abortion, contraception, sleeping around, having threesomes, etc.?

Or would you rather have someone like my second wife, who had a child in high school, admitted her mistakes, and is the most loving, beautiful, and faithful person you can possibly imagine?

I’m going to hammer this point home again…it’s not about virginity…it’s about morals. Virginity without morals is a waste…

I never disagreed with you that morals are needed on top of virginity. There are plenty of other must have traits I have. The reason I’m not talking much about the other must have traits is that they are easier to find among the general population. To be perfectly honest, if I had to pick between those two women, I would rather just be single. A virgin like your first wife is completely worthless. A woman who already has a child is even worse for me than just a non-virgin. If I am perfectly honest with myself, I highly doubt I would be able to love someone else’s child as my own, making it a useless endeavor.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Because I saved my virginity for her, that’s why. Lol I know right? 50% of marriages ending in divorce is such a small fraction

No, you misunderstood. You do not know anything about marriage by watching those around you because as an outsider, you only see a small sliver of a much larger and more complex relationship than you can imagine. My closest friends and relatives know very little about my marriage, and I know very little about theirs, except whether or not they’re happy. Trust me, you’ll find yourself and your views changing a lot as you get to know and love the person you marry. It’s a very unique form of self-discovery.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

A woman who already has a child is even worse for me than just a non-virgin. If I am perfectly honest with myself, I highly doubt I would be able to love someone else’s child as my own, making it a useless endeavor.

Just when I thought this thread couldn’t get any better, it just keeps on giving!

IMHO, one that cannot love a child, any child, isn’t fit for marriage. That child has done nothing wrong to you, yet you still can’t deal with it. You have no idea what the future will hold for you, and I can assure you perfection it will not be.

FWIW, all of my children are adopted. Interestingly enough, my stepson stated before we adopted our first that there is simply no way the child would act and be treated as our own. A few months after the adoption, he admitted how wrong he was and apologized.

 

[on_the_hill]

Just when I thought this thread couldn’t get any better, it just keeps on giving!

IMHO, one that cannot love a child, any child, isn’t fit for marriage. That child has done nothing wrong to you, yet you still can’t deal with it. You have no idea what the future will hold for you, and I can assure you perfection it will not be.

FWIW, all of my children are adopted. Interestingly enough, my stepson stated before we adopted our first that there is simply no way the child would act and be treated as our own. A few months after the adoption, he admitted how wrong he was and apologized.

I can sort of sympathize with enterthnewage. If I were young and looking to get married, I might not want to get involved with a woman who already has children. Simply from the standpoint that I would want my wife and me to start our married/family lives together.

When I was 23 I went out on a date with a woman (about my age) who was a single mom. Her situation was more than I was ready for.

 

[The_Bucket]

The only problem is that in the case of a non-virgin, the union would not be special enough for me to warrant such a celebration. Being a woman’s first sexual partner would mean exponentially more to me than the sacrament itself and the opportunity to declare that stuff in public.

To my point… you don’t care about marriage, you don’t care about the sacrament and all the graces that come from it… you want bragging rights. That’s sick.

I would accept a virgin non-practicing Catholic woman AS LONG AS she was pro-life, not a cheater, and met the rest of the requirements I have.

A virgin, non-prolife woman who doesn’t care about the Faith is better than someone who has truly embraced Christ? That again, makes no sense.

Even when the marriage goes well, the payoffs are nowhere near as high for the man as they are for the woman, because moderm marriage is just a modern form of indentured servitude for men.

Get real, virgins are prized by most guys, not just bros looking to pop a few cherries.

A virgin like your first wife is completely worthless. A woman who already has a child is even worse for me than just a non-virgin. If I am perfectly honest with myself, I highly doubt I would be able to love someone else’s child as my own, making it a useless endeavor.

Fifty bucks says you worship not at the altar of Christ, but at the altar of Roissy and other cool Internet Pick-Up Artist folks. But what do I know, right? Total beta over here.

Good. Lord.

 

[on_the_hill]

I made the heroin addict analogy for the purpose of showing that society places higher values on different types of people. Heroin addicts are obviously much lower quality than normal people. Get real, virgins are prized by most guys, not just bros looking to pop a few cherries.

I misspoke. And I apologize. Certainly there is value and honor in maintaining one’s virginity. I absolutely erred in characterizing virginity as being insignificant.

Nonetheless, I still hold firm my opinion that, by and large, virginity is not highly valued in secular culture. I never met anyone, (aside from on this forum), who sought a virgin bride or groom.

Moreover, I never discussed anyone’s virginity with anyone. The topic never came up even once. That I was never part of that conversation probably shows that most people assume that the others are not virgins. Why talk about the obvious, in other words?

 

[The_Bucket]

I can sort of sympathize with enterthnewage. If I were young and looking to get married, I might not want to get involved with a woman who already has children. Simply from the standpoint that I would want my wife and me to start our married/family lives together.

When I was 23 I went out on a date with a woman (about my age) who was a single mom. Her situation was more than I was ready for.

I can understand that one particular point. Of course, I was already a father at 23 but I was also married at 22 so…

But yes, I can see that a guy in his early 20s might be more wary or say that he can’t handle the whole having a kid thing right then. That is fine. So is being very particular. That’s his prerogative, even if it will mean that he ends up by himself. It’s not sinful. What is wrong is to talk about people being “damaged goods” and using disrespectful language. Because I get what’s going on underneath. I was there at one point in my life.

“Everyone else sucks. I mean, I know I have my own faults, but I saved myself for marriage and I go to Church and I do this and I do that… Why is everyone else not good enough for me?” Not only is that an isolating attitude, but it is despicable poison and pointedly un-Christlike.

manualman, you are quite right to say that actions do have temporal consequences. But they are not indelible marks on the soul. Past fornication can warp the mind and emotions, but there can be permanent healing from it! I’m not saying it happens in a fell swoop or that issues can’t crop up again… I’m a prime example. I thought my own history with pornography and masturbation would remain long gone after I got married. And yet they were back within a few years. Temporal consequences indeed; mine were worse than simply sleeping with a girlfriend prior to marriage… I have an addiction.

I’m sure my wife 100 times out of 100 would choose for me to have had premarital sex than be a virgin but also have a pornography addiction that I have to battle every day. Yeah I’m in recovery and “sober” and all that good stuff, but knowledge that it lurks out there causes consternation.

My point is the one you ended on. We’re all broken in some way, so it’s dead wrong to cast aside certain folks as “unworthy” simply because they have sinned too. By all means don’t marry them if you don’t want to… but the language used by enterthewage is sickening.