How important is virginity to people in a new relationship?

[GEddie]

God never, in Scripture or elsewhere, promised everybody a spouse. You could do all the right things and still end up alone. The airwaves are full of songs about that outcome.

Not playing around sexually is what we owe God for the privilege of breathing; it does not prioritize one for any kind of a relationship. For that, we have to play the same humiliating games as everybody else.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[holy_face]

Exactly. Male “animal instincts” is to polygamy and female “animal instincts” is to hypergamy. We are called to channel those instincts toward the good and overcome them to a large extent. They are useful for temporal survival, but our relationship with God makes it clear that temporal survival is not is what is most important.

Someone is familiar with red pill philosophy!

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

I can sort of sympathize with enterthnewage. If I were young and looking to get married, I might not want to get involved with a woman who already has children. Simply from the standpoint that I would want my wife and me to start our married/family lives together.

There is no problem with not marrying someone that already has a child. There can obviously be issues with marrying such a person, such as financial obligation, dealing the biological mother/father if she/he is still around, etc.

What I object to is the reason given. Not being able to love a child as one’s own? Seriously? Marrying such a person allows one to give that child the parent the child never had, and there will be no difference between that child and the biological one…unless that person actively puts up barriers to keep that child away.

But maybe I’m just being oversensitive. I’ve just seen to many kids get screwed up because the didn’t have parent on one end. And on the other end I’ve seen total ridiculousness. Someone I know was unsuccessful in having children naturally. The husband insisted on having a biological child, so they got an egg donor and did IVF.

But back to the thread…there is just a pattern of reasons that all seem self-centered.

 

[The_Bucket]

Someone is familiar with red pill philosophy!

Just because I consider most, if not all, members of the PUA community as despicable human beings does not mean I do not know what they’re talking about. I find it useful to know what certain types of secularists espouse. There are a few points where they hit the right note. They also hit the wrong notes, many, many times and generally treat women as something less than human. Or at least frequently insane humans, which is utter nonsense.

 

[holy_face]

If i were single I would not date a woman who already had children, the possibly exception is if she were a widow. The chances that she is hypergamous is high, she may very well have good explanations to why she divorced or whatever but I know too well a women’s capability to never see her own fault in relationships, even when she has an affair it is because the husband “is a jerk”

 

[holy_face]

Just because I consider most, if not all, members of the PUA community as despicable human beings does not mean I do not know what they’re talking about. I find it useful to know what certain types of secularists espouse. There are a few points where they hit the right note. They also hit the wrong notes, many, many times and generally treat women as something less than human. Or at least frequently insane humans, which is utter nonsense.

It really depends on how you use the information, there are a ton of “red pill” people who use it to better their marriages and committed relationships. Just as there are those who use the information to manipulate people. The philosophy itself if value neutral.

 

[Xantippe]

holy face said:

“You should really marry as young as possible and avoid marrying a women who spent her 20’s “finding herself” and then rushes against the biological clock to find a provider who she settles for.”

???

What if it turns out that the woman that one marries “as young as possible” is immature and feels like she’s been cheated out of “fun”? One of my Protestant relatives robbed the cradle (his was about 10 years younger than him and I think still in her teens). Seven kids later, she left him in her 40s, wanting to enjoy all the stuff she’d missed out on. I know a number of women of my parents’ generation who got married at 18 and did OK, but even then, you hear some regret. One of my aunties married my uncle at 18 and went to college as a newlywed. As she pointed out to me regretfully, while other girls her age were out having fun, she was home doing dishes. And she has her head screwed on right and is really smart, is very well-off, and has what seems like a really happy marriage. Imagine what less sensible women feel, a few years into an early marriage?

The unfortunate fact is that a lot of people do not mature at all after getting married. They are as grown up as they are ever going to get the day they say “I do.” They got married as spoiled princesses–they’ll die spoiled princess. They got married as heedless manchildren–they’ll die heedless manchildren. My husband and I got married fast and relatively young (I was almost 23 and he was 25), so it’s a little hypocritical of me to say this, but having seen all the families that I have go up in flames, the “as young as possible” gives me the heebie jeebies. We should get married when we’re ready, and not a minute earlier. Also, it’s not at all a bad thing to marry a woman who is old enough to be capable of supporting herself and is able to contribute materially to the welfare of your future family.

Also, there seem to be a number of chaste, older single ladies on CAF who would love to meet somebody.

 

[The_Bucket]

but I know too well a women’s capability to never see her own fault in relationship

Want to know where to draw the line in terms of learning anything from the PUA community? It’s right here. That is a ridiculous statement to make.

 

[Xantippe]

TheWarriorMonk said:

“What I object to is the reason given. Not being able to love a child as one’s own? Seriously? Marrying such a person allows one to give that child the parent the child never had, and there will be no difference between that child and the biological one…unless that person actively puts up barriers to keep that child away.”

It’s especially bizarre coming from somebody with no children of their own to compare it with.

A lot of biological parents (particularly fathers) struggle with the problem of loving new babies. This is a total stranger to you–and yet you are expected to love them immediately. That’s kind of weird, actually.

There’s a sense in which it’s easier to love a bigger child who is already verbal and knows how to ask for and show affection and attention. I’m afraid that a person who can’t love a big child like that isn’t ready to love a baby, even their own baby.

 

[The_Bucket]

We should get married when we’re ready, and not a minute earlier.

Yes. My problem with Western society today is not that we’re marrying too late, but that we’re delaying maturity. Too many people seeing folks in their early-to-mid 20s as “kids.” They are not kids. They’re adults. Young adults? Sure. But they’re not kids anymore.

We should be revving the engine on the maturity process. That will bring the average marriage age back down again to what I think are reasonable levels. But the fact that average age for a woman to get married has now exceeded the average age she has her first child is proof positive to me that we have a major maturity problem.

 

[holy_face]

holy face said:

“You should really marry as young as possible and avoid marrying a women who spent her 20’s “finding herself” and then rushes against the biological clock to find a provider who she settles for.”

???

What if it turns out that the woman that one marries “as young as possible” is immature and feels like she’s been cheated out of “fun”? One of my Protestant relatives robbed the cradle (his was about 10 years younger than him and I think still in her teens). Seven kids later, she left him in her 40s, wanting to enjoy all the stuff she’d missed out on. I know a number of women of my parents’ generation who got married at 18 and did OK, but even then, you hear some regret. One of my aunties married my uncle at 18 and went to college as a newlywed. As she pointed out to me regretfully, while other girls her age were out having fun, she was home doing dishes. And she has her head screwed on right and is really smart, is very well-off, and has what seems like a really happy marriage. Imagine what less sensible women feel, a few years into an early marriage?

The unfortunate fact is that a lot of people do not mature at all after getting married. They are as grown up as they are ever going to get the day they say “I do.” They got married as spoiled princesses–they’ll die spoiled princess. They got married as heedless manchildren–they’ll die heedless manchildren. My husband and I got married fast and relatively young (I was almost 23 and he was 25), so it’s a little hypocritical of me to say this, but having seen all the families that I have go up in flames, the “as young as possible” gives me the heebie jeebies. We should get married when we’re ready, and not a minute earlier. Also, it’s not at all a bad thing to marry a woman who is old enough to be capable of supporting herself and is able to contribute materially to the welfare of your future family.

Also, there seem to be a number of chaste, older single ladies on CAF who would love to meet somebody.

Sure some women who marry young may feel that they missed out on having the Sex in the City lifestyle and then decide to divorce in her 30s and 40s to pursue it. You never really know how someone will turn out years later. But she is really hurting herself gravely by doing this as she will quickly realize that she does not have the same options she did when she was younger, while men have more.

The good looking masculine guys that she is attracted to, the ones she thought she missed out on, will be looking for the young girls in their 20s instead. The divorced woman in her 30s or 40s will be able to sleep around sure, but she will have an almost impossible time finding commitment from the man she really wants.

As a man I would much rather risk the first situation as opposed to facing a 35 year old woman who spent her 20s sleeping with a lot of guys and having her fun. At least in the previous situation I got to have a woman who was chaste and who I was able to enjoy her young years with, if this woman now divorces me I wouldn’t have a hard time at all finding
a very attractive woman.

The 35 year old’s motivation for marriage will also be due to a realization that she is quickly becoming infertile and she is desperately trying to ty down a mate, she is faced with having to settle for a man that she is not as attracted to as the high value men have no problem securing much younger brides, why would they settle for a woman in her 30s or 40s who frivorced her loyal husband?

 

[holy_face]

Want to know where to draw the line in terms of learning anything from the PUA community? It’s right here. That is a ridiculous statement to make.

I don’t agree, it has been my observation my entire life as well. Men who cheat are aholes but women who cheat did so because their husband “was a jerk.” Their behavior is always rationalized away.

 

[Xantippe]

I think that where PUA misleads guys is that it seems to work some of the time–but that’s because it works primarily on women who aren’t worth having.

I’m not in their target demographic anymore (being fat and very married), but were I available, I’d just laugh at negging. I’ve read about it and so have a lot of other women. I know about the addictive power of intermittent reinforcement, I’ve read Bancroft’s excellent “Why Does He Do That?” (it’s about how abuse gets abusive men what they want) and various books on positive reinforcement. I’m not a dummy, and none of this stuff would work on me. Using these techniques is a self-fulfilling prophecy because it ensures that the only women you attract are stupid and/or naive. Is that the kind of person you want on your checking account, dealing with plumbers and other tradesmen and raising your kids? Think about it.

Also, for inspiration, read Proverbs 31 and ask yourself, how well would negging or other PUA mind games work on her?

 

[holy_face]

I think that where PUA misleads guys is that it seems to work some of the time–but that’s because it works primarily on women who aren’t worth having.

I’m not in their target demographic anymore (being fat and very married), but were I available, I’d just laugh at negging. I’ve read about it and so have a lot of other women. I know about the addictive power of intermittent reinforcement, I’ve read Bancroft’s excellent “Why Does He Do That?” (it’s about how abuse gets abusive men what they want) and various books on positive reinforcement. I’m not a dummy, and none of this stuff would work on me. Using these techniques is a self-fulfilling prophecy because it ensures that the only women you attract are stupid and/or naive. Is that the kind of person you want on your checking account, dealing with plumbers and other tradesmen and raising your kids? Think about it.

Also, for inspiration, read Proverbs 31 and ask yourself, how well would negging or other PUA mind games work on her?

PUA is not the same as red pill though, red pill is just the observations of evolutionary psychology and truths about relationships. PUA is practiced by some red pill people, the guys who are just looking to score and yes it works primarily on cheap women.

MMSL is a red pill community based on using some of the concepts for marriage instead of trying the score at bars, this is the approach i come from. The PUA concepts will work even on quality women though, I used them to fix my marriage. You have to do it mildly and not just try and be a domineering jerk.

It is also quite biblical in many ways, the point is to establish the male headship of the family

marriedmansexlife.vanillaforums.com/categories/married-life

 

[Xantippe]

The Bucket said:

“Yes. My problem with Western society today is not that we’re marrying too late, but that we’re delaying maturity.”

Exactly.

“We should be revving the engine on the maturity process. That will bring the average marriage age back down again to what I think are reasonable levels. But the fact that average age for a woman to get married has now exceeded the average age she has her first child is proof positive to me that we have a major maturity problem.”

Right again.

holy face said:

“As a man I would much rather risk this situation as opposed to facing a 35 year old woman who spent her 20s sleeping with a lot of guys and having her fun. At least in the previous situation I got to have a woman who was chaste and who I was able to enjoy her young years with, if this woman now divorces me I wouldn’t have a hard time at all finding
a very attractive woman.”

So much for the permanence of marriage…

Also, why the extremes? There’s a huge middle ground between an 18-year-old virgin bride and a 35-year-old Sex in the City wannabe. In between, there are lots of very presentable 20-somethings who might have made a few unfortunate choices in college, but who are making the effort to walk the straight and narrow now.

Also, there’s the very real worldly consideration that it is very valuable to have more of a track record to study. Can this person finish a college degree or vocational program? Can they work a job, support themselves, pay the bills and save money? It is a hard row to hoe to be married to somebody who thinks that as long as they have plastic, they’ve got money and who has no idea what the word “budget” means. If you meet a 25-year-old who is debt free, that means something, but if you meet an 18-year-old who is debt free, it may just mean that they haven’t discovered plastic yet.

 

[holy_face]

Also, for inspiration, read Proverbs 31 and ask yourself, how well would negging or other PUA mind games work on her?

You wouldn’t have to use PUA on a true noble woman of good character, the point of PUA is that the vast majority of woman are not this, even those who pretend to be.

Many women are also very good at disguising themselves as noble women of character, when they are quite the opposite in reality. Today it is almost cliche, the story of the 2 chaste college virgins saving themselves for marriage to each other while the woman slips out one night to a frat party and has sex with 2 guys at one time.

 

[The_Bucket]

PUA is not the same as red pill though, red pill is just the observations of evolutionary psychology and truths about relationships. PUA is practiced by some red pill people, the guys who are just looking to score and yes it works primarily on cheap women.

MMSL is a red pill community based on using some of the concepts for marriage instead of trying the score at bars, this is the approach i come from. The PUA concepts will work even on quality women though, I used them to fix my marriage. You have to do it mildly and not just try and be a domineering jerk.

It is also quite biblical in many ways, the point is to establish the male headship of the family

Athol Kay is the least objectionable person who subscribes to this whole notion. But then again, he’s also an agnostic/atheist so I’m pretty sure it just replaces religion to him. I like to simply think of acting “alpha” and “beta” the way Christ did.

 

[Robnv]

FYI, the original question is moot at this point.

I think I know God’s plan for me, but my own will has been getting in the way.

 

[The_Bucket]

You wouldn’t have to use PUA on a true noble woman of good character, the point of PUA is that the vast majority of woman are not this, even those who pretend to be.

Many women are also very good at disguising themselves as noble women of character, when they are quite the opposite in reality. Today it is almost cliche, the story of the 2 chaste college virgins saving themselves for marriage to each other while the woman slips out one night to a frat party and has sex with 2 guys at one time.

You act like this is a) a new phenomenon and b) limited to women.

Self-delusion, especially self-delusion as it pertains to our sexual behavior, knows no gender. Trust me. I’m a dude and engaged in it for a long, long time.

 

[holy_face]

So much for the permanence of marriage…

Also, why the extremes? There’s a huge middle ground between an 18-year-old virgin bride and a 35-year-old Sex in the City wannabe. In between, there are lots of very presentable 20-somethings who might have made a few unfortunate choices in college, but who are making the effort to walk the straight and narrow now.

Also, there’s the very real worldly consideration that it is very valuable to have more of a track record to study. Can this person finish a college degree or vocational program? Can they work a job, support themselves, pay the bills and save money? It is a hard row to hoe to be married to somebody who thinks that as long as they have plastic, they’ve got money and who has no idea what the word “budget” means. If you meet a 25-year-old who is debt free, that means something, but if you meet an 18-year-old who is debt free, it may just mean that they haven’t discovered plastic yet.

Yes, I met my wife when we were 26, neither of us were virgins but we also were not whores by any stretch of the imagination, it worked out great and we have been together 18 years. But I would have much rather have met her at 20 and we wouldn’t have as many hangups as we do now and we would also likely have more than one child. There are consequences to delaying marriage.