How important is virginity to people in a new relationship?

[holy_face]

holy face said:

“It is based on the matix yes, the red pill is accepting things as they really are instead of the blue pill which a false romanticized view of relationships where a man’s chivalrous and submissive behavior wins the woman.”

My husband won me with chivalry and pursuit–but not submission. He is very mild-mannered, but he’s very smart and very good at what he does and he’s done an excellent job of supporting our family. Sensible women like that in a guy.

I think I have a somewhat dominant personality, but I respect my husband’s intelligence and various accomplishments.

That can work, since you are a faithful religious woman you naturally command more respect, your husband seems like he is a beta with some alpha characteristics. If he were truly alpha male then he would not tolerate his wife having a dominant personality at all. But it doesn’t matter that much because it works for you guys.

I was more beta earlier and my life and have grown more alpha over time, it was society that misled me that being beta was what I was supposed to do, give into the female prerogative. That did not work for me, my marriage also suffered greatly because of it earlier own as my wife became abusive. The more alpha I become and the more PUA and red pill I integrate in my life the better my marriage becomes. It has been successful for me.

 

[The_Bucket]

It’s such a dangerous line though. Leadership can easily turn into dominance, which is no good for anyone. Christ was the Paschal Lamb and offered Himself as a sacrifice, but at the same time He drove the money changers out of the Temple and called out the Pharisees as “vipers.”

Instead of playing what I think to be a very dangerous game, I think it’s better to counsel men, single and married alike, to model themselves after Christ and His earthly father, St. Joseph. St. Joseph understood his role as leader of the family, his role to protect them but also clearly trusted his wife and God when they told him that the son Mary was carrying was of the Lord. That’s pretty deep stuff man.

 

[holy_face]

Time out:
I assume PUA means pick-up artist. What’s “negging?” What’s “red pill?”

Time in:

Highly doubtful. Very highly doubtful.

How old are you? Just curious, because this is really not uncommon at all these days. People are under some kind of impression that there are all of these innocent young girls out there getting victimized by these horrible players when in reality it is the women giving them the green light. Women are spending the 20’s “having fun” building their careers and waiting to settle down when they get into their 30s, this is modern feminism 101.

Not uncommon for a college girl to sleep with 2 different people the same weekend, why does 30-50 partners seem unreasonable? They are admitting it and many are proud of it. A growing trend is where girls will have oral sex (or even full sex) with a room full of guys. It is hard to hear I know, but it is the horrible state of affairs our society is in right now, people need to know.

Girls control the sexual marketplace, if they did not do these things then men would be forced to be more respectable towards them.

 

[holy_face]

It’s such a dangerous line though. Leadership can easily turn into dominance, which is no good for anyone. Christ was the Paschal Lamb and offered Himself as a sacrifice, but at the same time He drove the money changers out of the Temple and called out the Pharisees as “vipers.”

Instead of playing what I think to be a very dangerous game, I think it’s better to counsel men, single and married alike, to model themselves after Christ and His earthly father, St. Joseph. St. Joseph understood his role as leader of the family, his role to protect them but also clearly trusted his wife and God when they told him that the son Mary was carrying was of the Lord. That’s pretty deep stuff man.

St Joseph had a clear Christian headship of his family and also was married to the Blessed Mother, he did not have to deal with the same things us regular guys do. In scripture God has reserved the headship of the family for the man, it does not call on him to abuse her but the have clear leadership.

A marriage where a woman constantly yells at her husband, makes demands, calls the shots, and/or belittles her husband is not the type of marriage set forth in the bible.

 

[Xantippe]

The Bucket said:

“Chivalry is not submission. Not submission with a negative connotation anyway. Chivalry was about demonstrating one’s power… and then treating those less powerful with respect.”

Exactly.

“Not uncommon for a college girl to sleep with 2 different people the same weekend, why does 30-50 partners seem unreasonable? They are admitting it and many are proud of it. A growing trend is where girls will have oral sex (or even full sex) with a room full of guys. It is hard to hear I know, but it is the horrible state of affairs our society is in right now, people need to know.”

You might wish to google the term “morose delectation.”

“Girls control the sexual marketplace, if they did not do these things then men would be forced to be more respectable towards them.”

A very important factor at most colleges is that women now outnumber men, often by a considerable fraction (a local college is roughly 3/5 women). There isn’t one boy for every girl, so there’s a stampede to engage in man-pleasing behaviors. I don’t have the time to look now, but there has been at least one studying showing that in environments where there are more men than women, women do tend to insist on (and get) actual dating and courtship behaviors. That suggests to me that that’s what women do (on average) actually want, it’s just that in environments with relatively few men they can’t get it. There’s a race to the bottom to get a guy, any guy, on any terms.

Also, bear in mind that female sexual response is a tricky thing with no guarantees, and that one of the things that encourages women toward sticking with a single partner is that one-offs are both dangerous in a variety of ways and unlikely to be physically pleasurable.

My impression (just based on reading dearwendy, which has a large young adult audience) is that the dominant pattern these days is not one-offs, but friends-with-benefits. What a lot of young women are struggling with is how to leave the friends-with-benefits zone and have an actual relationship with an actual boyfriend. There’s a huge amount of pain caused by these situations.

 

[Xantippe]

I was a college student 20 years ago, and even then, the dating situation on campus was TERRIBLE. In fact, there was no dating situation at all. A very few young women I knew had boyfriends, but there was no dating. I went four years without ever being taken out for so much as a coffee or an ice cream by a fellow student at my college, let alone a movie. At the time, I thought it was just me that was the oddball, but looking back, I realize that very, very few people I knew had girlfriends or boyfriends. That was a huge shock, given that I’d gone off to college kind of expecting to meet my future husband there, just like my mom had. I’m glad I wound up with my husband (who I met a few years later my first year in graduate school), but those were hard times. That’s exactly the sort of situation that leads to young women lowering and lowering their expectations for what they expect out of men. Seriously–I wasn’t even getting a nibble from my fellow college students (hence my dating the 35-year-old divorced guy).

The good news is that I think the situation is not quite as dire after college and it’s probably a lot better at colleges with more guys.

 

[holy_face]

You might wish to google the term “morose delectation.”

No I am just trying to wake people up to what is really going on, people who are bit older don’t realize how things have exploded out of control. They don’t have a grip on it. This is what young people have to navigate through these days, a continued slippery slope started by the previous generations. I am not exaggerating that this kind of stuff is now COMMON, not a weird urban rumor from a distant land.

A very important factor at most colleges is that women now outnumber men, often by a considerable fraction (a local college is roughly 3/5 women). There isn’t one boy for every girl, so there’s a stampede to engage in man-pleasing behaviors. I don’t have the time to look now, but there has been at least one studying showing that in environments where there are more men than women, women do tend to insist on (and get) actual dating and courtship behaviors. That suggests to me that that’s what women do (on average) actually want, it’s just that in environments with relatively few men they can’t get it. There’s a race to the bottom to get a guy, any guy, on any terms.

Also, bear in mind that female sexual response is a tricky thing with no guarantees, and that one of the things that encourages women toward sticking with a single partner is that one-offs are both dangerous in a variety of ways and unlikely to be physically pleasurable.

My impression (just based on reading dearwendy, which has a large young adult audience) is that the dominant pattern these days is not one-offs, but friends-with-benefits. What a lot of young women are struggling with is how to leave the friends-with-benefits zone and have an actual relationship with an actual boyfriend. There’s a huge amount of pain caused by these situations.

There are plenty of friends with benefits, that is just a new thing to go on top of one-offs. Girls are really not looking for relationships in general, they are looking to have fun and live it up as feminist culture has encouraged them to do. I am someone who has seen all of this stuff first hand, not just reading a column, and I am hearing from younger people that it is worse than when I was experiencing the culture.

 

[holy_face]

I was a college student 20 years ago, and even then, the dating situation on campus was TERRIBLE. In fact, there was no dating situation at all. A very few young women I knew had boyfriends, but there was no dating. I went four years without ever being taken out for so much as a coffee or an ice cream by a fellow student at my college, let alone a movie. At the time, I thought it was just me that was the oddball, but looking back, I realize that very, very few people I knew had girlfriends or boyfriends. That was a huge shock, given that I’d gone off to college kind of expecting to meet my future husband there, just like my mom had. I’m glad I wound up with my husband (who I met a few years later my first year in graduate school), but those were hard times. That’s exactly the sort of situation that leads to young women lowering and lowering their expectations for what they expect out of men. Seriously–I wasn’t even getting a nibble from my fellow college students (hence my dating the 35-year-old divorced guy).

The good news is that I think the situation is not quite as dire after college and it’s probably a lot better at colleges with more guys.

There is still a whole group of people in college who don’t do these things or even date, I did not date much in college because I was disgusted by the hookup culture. BUT tons of people are acting like this. I am telling you that even the most conservative and christian people fall prey to this stuff. I could not find a good conservative christian girl, my wife is Jewish, she seemed to have better family values than any Christian girl I had met.

 

[Galbin]

Incredible… that contempt for the Sacrament… just terrible.

Yes. I feel like we are being ‘punked’ to be honest. I suspect trolling or else extreme resentment at keeping sex for marriage. This resentment is fair enough, but it’s not fair to project it onto women.

It is almost universally important for guys, as a high partner count in women is repulsive from both a spiritual and biological point of view. A large partner count usually goes hand in hand with being a headcase.

Actually, many men do not judge women for their past. And sleeping around is very often a sign of a troubled past. Also, judgmental… much?

A woman (or man) with a high partner count would be very suspect, it is not uncommon for women these days to have slept with 30-50 guys before they marry and settle down in the 30s, seriously.

You should really marry as young as possible and avoid marrying a women who spent her 20’s “finding herself” and then rushes against the biological clock to find a provider who she settles for.

Same as men that are players, women will find no relief in them, they will not “fix” them and make them good husbands unless they “change” at a young age.

I think that figure must be dependent on location. I do not live in the U.S., but most women I know sleep with 3/4 men TOPS before marriage, and these are in long term relationships. In fact, I know of some women who only slept with 1 man before their husband. And these women were not reserving themselves for marriage, they were just being sensible. I met my husband at 26, got engaged at 30 and married at 33, but trust me I did not settle. I strongly disagree that women who get married in their 30s are settling. In fact, ppl in their 30s are more likely to know themselves better and thus choose a more suitable mate because they didn’t panic and marry the first man who offered. If I had married the man I dated at 18, I would have ended up with a cheating out of work selfish husband. Instead, I have a wonderful loving, smart, hard working, capable, masculine lovely alpha male, whom I adore.

What they really want depends on the time of the month and whether or not she is approaching the years of infertility. During ovulation she wants the strong masculine genetics and then later on she wants more passive provider type. The key to women is being able to possess both qualities.

Can you point me to any studies on this? Thanks.

The 35 year old’s motivation for marriage will also be due to a realization that she is quickly becoming infertile and she is desperately trying to ty down a mate, she is faced with having to settle for a man that she is not as attracted to as the high value men have no problem securing much younger brides, why would they settle for a woman in her 30s or 40s who diivorced her loyal husband?

You are making massive assumptions here. How do you know all 35 year olds settle for any ol’ man? That is a gross generalisation. To be honest, you seem a bit bitter about women.

Also, why the extremes? There’s a huge middle ground between an 18-year-old virgin bride and a 35-year-old Sex in the City wannabe. In between, there are lots of very presentable 20-somethings who might have made a few unfortunate choices in college, but who are making the effort to walk the straight and narrow now.

I think there’s a bit of a problem of perspective as you’re a guy, so you haven’t been on the receiving end of the sort of interest this generates. Yes, some men do find virginity “interesting,” but that doesn’t necessarily translate to honorable intentions or happy relationships.

Yes, their reasons for liking virginity tend to veer towards the sexual excitement of that rather than valuing the purity. To be honest, most secular men who want virgins tend to be creepy. I know because I met one at 18 who seemed to think my virginity was sexually exciting. I was extremely naive then!!! To me, getting aroused by that is creepy.

There are plenty of friends with benefits, that is just a new thing to go on top of one-offs. Girls are really not looking for relationships in general, they are looking to have fun and live it up as feminist culture has encouraged them to do. I am someone who has seen all of this stuff first hand, not just reading a column, and I am hearing from younger people that it is worse than when I was experiencing the culture.

Having worked with young people for the past eight years, I must say I strongly disagree with his. Perhaps it is this way in the very specific pool of college students in the US. However, I assure you that is is not this way for everyone outside of that.

 

[Xantippe]

Holy Face said:

“There is still a whole group of people in college who don’t do these things or even date,”

I think life would be better on campus if more people dated. As I said, I went 4 years without even a coffee date with a fellow student from my college. (I did see a guy or two while doing a study abroad and I did see the 35-year-old guy, but from fellow students at my home institution–absolutely nothing.)

It’s the lack of a reasonable dating culture that makes life so miserable for people who are trying to lead a different kind of life. There should be options in between hooking up and staying home filing your holy cards.

 

[GEddie]

Doubtless most men who spent most of their time out of doors, sailing vessels and fishing for their own food would be in good shape.

Plus, doesn’t get much more of a Temple of the Holy Spirit than God Incarnate so I would not be surprised if He was as fit as possible.

An alpha body is not just about being healthy and fit; it is also (probably mostly) about size and bodybuild.

You can to an extent control the first, not so much the second.

ICXC NIKA

 

[holy_face]

Actually, many men do not judge women for their past. And sleeping around is very often a sign of a troubled past. Also, judgmental… much?

They should because it is a good predictor of future behavior. Not going to judge someone on whether they have a good or bad standing with God, I have no idea, but I can judge if such a person is good prospect for a relationship, are you telling me you make no judgements whatsoever when trying to decide if someone is a good prospect for a relationship or marriage?

I think that figure must be dependent on location. I do not live in the U.S., but most women I know sleep with 3/4 men TOPS before marriage, and these are in long term relationships. In fact, I know of some women who only slept with 1 man before their husband. And these women were not reserving themselves for marriage, they were just being sensible. I met my husband at 26, got engaged at 30 and married at 33, but trust me I did not settle. I strongly disagree that women who get married in their 30s are settling. In fact, ppl in their 30s are more likely to know themselves better and thus choose a more suitable mate because they didn’t panic and marry the first man who offered. If I had married the man I dated at 18, I would have ended up with a cheating out of work selfish husband. Instead, I have a wonderful loving, smart, hard working, capable, masculine lovely alpha male, whom I adore.

Not everyone’s experiences are the same, not everyone settles and you met your husband in your twenties and was involved in a long committed relationship, that is a different situation and it is the same situation as I was in, met a 26 and married at 32.

Can you point me to any studies on this? Thanks.

medicalnewstoday.com/articles/272697.php
rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/272/1576/2023.full
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/376321.stm

You are making massive assumptions here. How do you know all 35 year olds settle for any ol’ man? That is a gross generalisation. To be honest, you seem a bit bitter about women.

Not all, of course not. I just know that when women reach their 30s they have already begun to lose their beauty (as compared to a younger girl) and she is less fertile. She also has likely had many more sexual partners than a younger girl. A man remains fertile decades longer than a woman and if he keeps in shape can become even more attractive to women in his 30s and 40s. His career has taken off and has a higher value in society at this point in his life. He has better options available to him than some girl who partied it up for her youth and is now looking to settle down. The more attractive and successful guys in their 30s will naturally choose the girls in their 20s over them. This gives less options to those girls in their 30s, they will definitely have to settle for less than they had hoped for.

You should read this

smh.com.au/federal-politics/society-and-culture/why-women-lose-the-dating-game-20120421-1xdn0.html

Yes, their reasons for liking virginity tend to veer towards the sexual excitement of that rather than valuing the purity. To be honest, most secular men who want virgins tend to be creepy. I know because I met one at 18 who seemed to think my virginity was sexually exciting. I was extremely naive then!!! To me, getting aroused by that is creepy.

It is only creepy if it is some unattractive guy that seems needy and obsessed with it. An alpha male will just sit back watch women throw themselves at him, he will have the pick of the litter. He may or may not prefer virgins but men typically do, it is a biological drive towards fertility as well as picking a mate that will more likely remain faithful and be the mother of his children. He does not want a women who will have sex with other men while he unknowingly raises their children. He wants his DNA to pass to the next generation and a promiscuous woman is a larger threat to that than a virgin.

Having worked with young people for the past eight years, I must say I strongly disagree with his. Perhaps it is this way in the very specific pool of college students in the US. However, I assure you that is is not this way for everyone outside of that.

I do think it is particularly an American problem, yes so i agree

 

[The_Bucket]

holy face, I find it curious that you’re an apparent expert on the subject of “what it’s like for young people today” and yet… you’re not a young person today.

I may have come of age before Tinder, but not before Facebook. Basically what I’m saying is… I’m a millennial and while it’s been a few years since I graduated college, I think I might have a better sense of what it’s like for young adults out there. I know I’m the rare exception to get married at 22… have kids at 23, 24 and 28… but then again I’m not yet 29…

 

[holy_face]

You should hang out on the redditt red pill site on occasion and read the daily stories, it is eye opening. Just amazingly depraved stuff that men are having to live through.

It was really bad when I was in college too and what I am hearing from younger people is even worse, not everyone is having the same experiences I guess.

I went to college late and was there into my late twenties so it does not go too far back for me.

 

[Xantippe]

Galbin said:

“I strongly disagree that women who get married in their 30s are settling. In fact, ppl in their 30s are more likely to know themselves better and thus choose a more suitable mate because they didn’t panic and marry the first man who offered.”

Or sometimes it just plain takes that long to meet anybody.

Or, alternately, they’ve spent a long time in school. It takes a long time to get a doctorate or become an MD.

(Attention single ladies–a lot of guys meet their future spouses and marry in graduate school!)

holy face said:

“A man remains fertile decades longer than a woman and if he keeps in shape can become even more attractive to women in his 30s and 40s. he has better options available to him than some girl who partied it up for he youth.”

They’re starting to realize that aging also affects a man’s ability to have healthy children. Older fathers, for instance, are a contributing factor to autism.

While a woman starts with a batch of eggs that does age, the situation with men is in some respects worse, because there’s constant copying and recopying of genetic material, in the course of which, more and more mutations accumulate.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternal_age_effect

healthline.com/health-blogs/infertility-insights/sperm-quality-and-age

 

[The_Bucket]

You should hang out on the redditt red pill site on occasion and read the daily stories, it is eye opening. Just amazingly depraved stuff that men are having to live through.

Oh yes, pity the poor men about what they have to deal with. Dude, women wouldn’t be acting this way if men didn’t want them to act this way. Or at least if we didn’t project that we want women to act this way.

You consistently put all the burden on women. “If women did X, men would do Y. If women were more virtuous, men would have to behave better.” Where’s the leadership by men?! Where’s the men willing to have the cajones to act like good men?

And yes, the retort will be “well what’s in it for the men besides ridicule and no women and blah, blah, blah.” How about taking a stand? How about instead of playing little nonsense games, acting like modern-day patriarchs? True patriarchs! Not the ones of ages past that dominated women. But ones that fight alongside them, regard them as true partners and are not willing to take society as it is for an answer. That kind of bold courage in a single fellow will attract women. Even secularist women know the difference between cheap tin and steel.

You’re what, 50-something years old and hanging out on reddit? You are aware, right, that reddit is basically populated by a bunch of angsty teens and 20-somethings who generally have low social status and poor social skills, right? I don’t think you really want to take your cues from 9/11 truthers, gold/bitcoin nuts and people who generally have no idea how to deal with real life. The only thing reddit is good for are the AMAs from interesting people.

And yes, yes I know all about these forums. I grew up on the Internet for goodness sakes. Exposed to Something Awful, 4chan, participated in forum raids on Stormfront (the white supremacy group) and basically wasted all of my teenaged years playing video games and hanging out on forums.

Don’t take your cues from Reddit or anyone on it. Take them from Christ.

 

[holy_face]

that is true but they are still fertile while woman are typically are not, of course younger is better for reproduction for both men and women, but for women the window closes much faster.

 

[Xantippe]

The Bucket said:

“holy face, I find it curious that you’re an apparent expert on the subject of “what it’s like for young people today” and yet… you’re not a young person today.”



“Oh yes, pity the poor men about what they have to deal with. Dude, women wouldn’t be acting this way if men didn’t want them to act this way.”

Yep.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

It’s especially bizarre coming from somebody with no children of their own to compare it with.

My wife does. She says their is no difference…none.

Do some people have such issues? Sure. But I would advise them to reflect on why. One’s own sperm is not what what makes a family.

 

[Xantippe]

holy face said:

“that is true but they are still fertile while woman are typically are not, of course younger is better for reproduction for both men and women, but for women the window closes much faster.”

Fertility aside, even men prefer to have children when they are younger. If you have a first child at 45 as a man (which is not really that old), that means that when they graduate from high school, you’ll be 63. By the time they graduate from college (if they do it in four years), you’ll be 67. If there are any younger children, push the date out even further. Fun, fun, fun.

There is a biological clock for men, too–it just ticks a bit more slowly.