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Galbin
Guest
Man, that sounds crazy tough! TG it’s not like that in my country. Is it really like that in all American colleges? I actually know a good few women who met their husbands in college here in my country.
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on_the_hill
Guest
Soma? What the heck is a soma?
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Galbin
Guest
Yes, but I judge their character and personality, not their past sexual history. Also, I make decisions based on my subjective opinion and don’t see my opinion as the be-all-end-all. For example, I am indecisive and sensitive. I used to date men like myself. That was a disaster. I then met my husband, who is a take charge alpha male. Absolutely nothing phases him, so he is amazing for me. I don’t like making decisions and he does, so I leave him to make decisions I can’t be bothered with. Then he is not emotional himself, so he can sit and ride out the storms with me. Yet if I was a bossy alpha female I wouldn’t want to be in a relationship with my dh, let alone marry him. So just because he is right for me, and has the characteristics I desire does not make him right for everyone. For example, my sister would hate to be married to him, yet I love being married to him.
When it comes to sex, many women make mistakes when young. You may not believe it in this day and age, but there are many naive young women who truly believe a man will love them if they allow him to have sex with them. And sometimes it takes a while for them to realise this pattern never works. So if I met a man who had like 30 partners, I wouldn’t be pleased. I would probably be jealous thinking of all the women he had been with. I would also make sure he got an STI check! However, if he regretted his past behaviour and saw that it was bad, then I don’t see why I shouldn’t give him a chance. I also agree with The Bucket’s point of view in that everyone has something. I knew one virgin who I dated for a short time and he was blunt, abusive, hurtful and messed up in the head. TBH he was a lot more of a ‘headcase’ than most non-virgins I have met.
True, but the average marriage age for a woman in my (over 95% Catholic) country is over 30. People very often tend to move back to their parents when they get engaged, and then will spend a few years saving for a house. So it’s not out of the norm for non promiscuous women to get married in their 30s here. And we have a low divorce rate too. Again, I am really wondering if there is a massive cultural divide here. Since the average age of marriage is much lower in the US, maybe women in their 30s really are settling OR spent their 20s going crazy. I just don’t know. I do however find that hard to believe. I have spent a lot of time in the US and have several extremely close American friends. Yet none of them fit this pattern.
Thanks for the study links. My dh always laughs at my attraction to his scent, so I agree that that is a massive part of sexuality. However, I am attracted to the dominant male type all month long!
Interesting article. I do need to point out that Australia is well known as having quite a chauvinistic and misogynistic culture. The males can be so OTT. My dh lived in Australia for years before I met him, and he hated the men out there. He said they were so rude, domineering and chauvinistic. My dh is extremely respectful of women and he said he just couldn’t get over it. I do agree however that women can be a bit silly about relationships. I made a decision in my 20s that I would never live with a man without being engaged or married, and I am so glad I did. I think a lot of these women shoot themselves in the foot because they move in with someone who has shown no proof that he sees a future in their relationship. They then wait around for years hoping that he will propose. My friend lived with her dh for six years before he proposed for example!! Whereas I made it exceedingly clear right from the start that I would not be moving in with my dh and “shacking up”. So he said he knew I was the one within a year, and he planned the proposal a year in advance.
Again, I know many women who got married in their 30s and they definitely did not settle. My extremely devout and very Catholic mother got married at 30 in 1975 and she was a virgin. She and my father were crazy in love up until the day he died. Neither settled, even though my mother got married at a much later age than was the average in this country at that time.
I don’t want to get graphic on a forum, but as woman I can tell you that the men who were interested in my virginity were turned on by it. They did not see it as a spiritual thing at all.
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Xantippe
Guest
The good news is, there is an occasional college-educated woman who is willing to raise several children without benefit of wedlock. I’ve even found one for you.
Her name is Starshine FakeIndianlastname, she reads auras, she lives in Eugene, Oregon and she’ll pack you macrobiotic lunches for work every day.
Hope you love kale!
bostonglobe.com/magazine/2014/01/05/five-kale-smoothie-and-spinach-smoothie-recipes/uUM0DyMxcq6QpXJ6DmLmFM/story.html
Her name is Starshine FakeIndianlastname, she reads auras, she lives in Eugene, Oregon and she’ll pack you macrobiotic lunches for work every day.
Hope you love kale!
bostonglobe.com/magazine/2014/01/05/five-kale-smoothie-and-spinach-smoothie-recipes/uUM0DyMxcq6QpXJ6DmLmFM/story.html
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raspberrybear
Guest
I’m still quite young (21) and a virgin, and while I certainly haven’t found it hard to not have sex, putting up with the judgements and comments is sometimes tiring. Personally, I don’t like to go out clubbing and thus don’t need to be wary about that, nor do I have many male friends. I don’t lead guys on and I tend to keep them at a distance, tbh…I truly want a family and a husband, and I’d really like to dedicate myself to him. I believe this can be done regardless of one’s sexual status, but I would personally like to save myself. I don’t mind about the guy so much, as long as he is okay to wait for me. I am terribly afraid that no man will wait until marriage! 
Non-religious acquaintances have often made comments such as “Why would you do that?” or “You’re brainwashed!” and I frequently get teased at work, where people have been able to assume I’m a virgin after a few conversations. I’m frequently the recipient of sexual questions and the guys will say crude things about me that honestly make me blush/very uncomfortable. …
Non-religious acquaintances have often made comments such as “Why would you do that?” or “You’re brainwashed!” and I frequently get teased at work, where people have been able to assume I’m a virgin after a few conversations. I’m frequently the recipient of sexual questions and the guys will say crude things about me that honestly make me blush/very uncomfortable. …
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Xantippe
Guest
Galbin said:
“Man, that sounds crazy tough! TG it’s not like that in my country. Is it really like that in all American colleges?”
I think it mainly has to do with the number of women in particular programs or colleges. I remember talking to a former electrical engineering student who was being treated like the last woman on earth in her program. She eventually found it creepy, but it must have been fun at times. I also had a friend who was not particularly cute (but vivacious, nice and smart) who was in engineering (mechanical?) and she had a male friend try to get her to promise that if they were both single at 35, they’d marry each other. The author of the Dilbert books
Looking back, I think part of the problem was I had chosen two female-dominated majors.
My oldest daughter clearly has a lot of spatial and mathematical aptitude and I think I’m definitely going to nudge her a little in that direction, as I think it will improve her personal life.
“Man, that sounds crazy tough! TG it’s not like that in my country. Is it really like that in all American colleges?”
I think it mainly has to do with the number of women in particular programs or colleges. I remember talking to a former electrical engineering student who was being treated like the last woman on earth in her program. She eventually found it creepy, but it must have been fun at times. I also had a friend who was not particularly cute (but vivacious, nice and smart) who was in engineering (mechanical?) and she had a male friend try to get her to promise that if they were both single at 35, they’d marry each other. The author of the Dilbert books
Looking back, I think part of the problem was I had chosen two female-dominated majors.
My oldest daughter clearly has a lot of spatial and mathematical aptitude and I think I’m definitely going to nudge her a little in that direction, as I think it will improve her personal life.
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Galbin
Guest
Wow. You need to speak to your manager, as that sounds like sexual harassment. So sorry you are having to deal with that!Non-religious acquaintances have often made comments such as “Why would you do that?” or “You’re brainwashed!” and I frequently get teased at work, where people have been able to assume I’m a virgin after a few conversations. I’m frequently the recipient of sexual questions and the guys will say crude things about me that honestly make me blush/very uncomfortable. …
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Galbin
Guest
Plus, she will likely have better career options. I was good at languages and history, and there are not many steady careers in these areas. Whereas maths lends itself to science, medicine, veterinary, engineering etc.
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Xantippe
Guest
Galbin said:
“When it comes to sex, many women make mistakes when young. You may not believe it in this day and age, but there are many naive young women who truly believe a man will love them if they allow him to have sex with them. And sometimes it takes a while for them to realise this pattern never works.”
Exactly. We’re all born inexperienced, and it takes a while to gain worldly experienced. And unfortunately, one of the fastest ways to gain worldly experiences is through making mistakes. Also, it takes a while to learn not to take people at face value or at what point to hit the brakes when being affectionate–that takes a lot of learning. I don’t know about everybody else, but I certainly didn’t get any very specific dating or courtship advice from my parents. They got married in 1969 when they were in college and there were very, very strict rules about dorm visitation–it was a different world.
“When it comes to sex, many women make mistakes when young. You may not believe it in this day and age, but there are many naive young women who truly believe a man will love them if they allow him to have sex with them. And sometimes it takes a while for them to realise this pattern never works.”
Exactly. We’re all born inexperienced, and it takes a while to gain worldly experienced. And unfortunately, one of the fastest ways to gain worldly experiences is through making mistakes. Also, it takes a while to learn not to take people at face value or at what point to hit the brakes when being affectionate–that takes a lot of learning. I don’t know about everybody else, but I certainly didn’t get any very specific dating or courtship advice from my parents. They got married in 1969 when they were in college and there were very, very strict rules about dorm visitation–it was a different world.
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holy_face
Guest
I can see past sexual history depending on the extent of it and what the person is like. As I mentioned before, my wife and I both had previous sexual relationships. The fact that you want your husband to have the leadership in the relationship and be alpha would be a very positive characteristic for me. Women are a lot more attractive when they are feminine and not a dominant personality.
A woman who had an extensive sexual history as well as expected to be the boss in the relationship is a combination that is very toxic in my view. I would not stick around for that.
But the higher the sexual partner count the lower your value goes and many guys know that girls tend to under report their numbers.
I am not saying it is bad or it is hopeless for women who wait until their thirties, just pointing out that women put themselves in a more difficult situation by doing so, the more higher value males will have already committed by then and probably to younger girls. There will still be guys out there but you will have to offer much more than what typical entitled American women do, women from other more traditional culture countries would be more preferable in general.
Those are people who just want to have a virgin “conquest” and definitely are people to stay away from.
There is nothing wrong with desiring a virgin for a wife, because that is what the bible teaches as well as our biological nature.
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holy_face
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Your virginity is a very valuable asset and can help you secure a very high value traditional male, don’t listen to these people. They are the same kind of people that are overweight and try to feed athletic people donuts and cake at the office in order to make themselves feel better, if everyone is unhealthy then their self esteem rises.I’m still quite young (21) and a virgin, and while I certainly haven’t found it hard to not have sex, putting up with the judgements and comments is sometimes tiring. Personally, I don’t like to go out clubbing and thus don’t need to be wary about that, nor do I have many male friends. I don’t lead guys on and I tend to keep them at a distance, tbh…I truly want a family and a husband, and I’d really like to dedicate myself to him. I believe this can be done regardless of one’s sexual status, but I would personally like to save myself. I don’t mind about the guy so much, as long as he is okay to wait for me. I am terribly afraid that no man will wait until marriage!
Non-religious acquaintances have often made comments such as “Why would you do that?” or “You’re brainwashed!” and I frequently get teased at work, where people have been able to assume I’m a virgin after a few conversations. I’m frequently the recipient of sexual questions and the guys will say crude things about me that honestly make me blush/very uncomfortable. …
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raspberrybear
Guest
Unfortunately they are often standing nearby when these things happen, and will often laugh at it! These are just the sort of people I work with, and I doubt anything will be done
But, thankfully, I’ve secured another job and may be able to give that one up! Thank you
I know I shouldn’t listen to them, and it’s not so much that I feel I need to change and be like them, but that it’s simply so tiring to endure at times!
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BlueEyedLady
Guest
I double majored in two very male dominated programs. Neither were STEM, but I was still usually the only woman, or one of a very small handful in every class. I was treated extremely well by my male classmates and I had a lot of fun. One degree was a little more academic in nature, so the guys I met there were very different than the guys in my more blue collar degree. But I liked the men in both groups and it was really good for me. I learned how to talk to men and not be afraid to argue with them. Having worked in male dominated environments since, it’s been a huge asset and I think made me a better supervisor. Many women I’ve worked with have been intimidated by strong male personalities. There aren’t a lot of women who are that at ease with men, so if your daughter is one of them, the benefits both professionally and personally are enormous.
And I minored in Psych to round out my social science research experience. Those classes were always a HUGE culture shock to me. The classes were dominated by women, half of them were only there so that they could say they graduated college, and the other half were insanely hyper-competitive. (Probably due to the exclusivity of grad programs and the flooding of the psych market).
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Xantippe
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Holy Face,
I think a lot of that stuff about older men being able to marry considerably younger women ignores the actual facts on the ground about actual upper middle class American mating patterns and family life. (And remember, being able to marry a considerably younger woman is not really a possibility for blue collar men–a 30-year-old plumber is normally going to beat a 50-year-old plumber.)
The most important fact about courtship among upper middle class Americans is that nowadays they marry very much among themselves. Graduate students marry graduate students, lawyers marry lawyers, doctors marry doctors, etc. Hence, if one wants to marry a doctor, one of the easiest ways to do that is to become a doctor oneself.
There are obvious problems with assortative mating from a societal point of view (it very much concentrates wealth in fewer and fewer hands and increases inequality), but it does make for more harmonious marriages. It also tends to promote marriage between age peers. The average age of marriage for women is now 27 while the average age for men is 29–that is very, very close. While it is theoretically possible for much older men to marry younger women, on average, it’s obviously not the norm.
If we look at somebody like Bill Gates, he was around 39 when he got married and his wife was around 30. This is one of the richest people on the planet, and yet he married a 30-year-old woman who worked at his company before he turned 40. Melinda Gates was valedictorian at her high school, has a bachelor’s degree in computer science and economics plus an MBA. This is very much the pattern for the upper middle class. Within that class, men value intelligence and academic credentials in a future spouse just as much as beauty. Why is that? Well, speaking as an upper middle class mother of three, I’d say that the reason for that is that managing the education and enrichment of that sort of family is a fairly intellectually challenging endeavor. Once the kids get to a certain age, it’s very much a white collar job–there are immense of planning, scheduling, research, and just plain THINKING involved. I think that’s what a lot of the guys that you’re reading just don’t get, because that’s not their scene.
I think a lot of that stuff about older men being able to marry considerably younger women ignores the actual facts on the ground about actual upper middle class American mating patterns and family life. (And remember, being able to marry a considerably younger woman is not really a possibility for blue collar men–a 30-year-old plumber is normally going to beat a 50-year-old plumber.)
The most important fact about courtship among upper middle class Americans is that nowadays they marry very much among themselves. Graduate students marry graduate students, lawyers marry lawyers, doctors marry doctors, etc. Hence, if one wants to marry a doctor, one of the easiest ways to do that is to become a doctor oneself.
There are obvious problems with assortative mating from a societal point of view (it very much concentrates wealth in fewer and fewer hands and increases inequality), but it does make for more harmonious marriages. It also tends to promote marriage between age peers. The average age of marriage for women is now 27 while the average age for men is 29–that is very, very close. While it is theoretically possible for much older men to marry younger women, on average, it’s obviously not the norm.
If we look at somebody like Bill Gates, he was around 39 when he got married and his wife was around 30. This is one of the richest people on the planet, and yet he married a 30-year-old woman who worked at his company before he turned 40. Melinda Gates was valedictorian at her high school, has a bachelor’s degree in computer science and economics plus an MBA. This is very much the pattern for the upper middle class. Within that class, men value intelligence and academic credentials in a future spouse just as much as beauty. Why is that? Well, speaking as an upper middle class mother of three, I’d say that the reason for that is that managing the education and enrichment of that sort of family is a fairly intellectually challenging endeavor. Once the kids get to a certain age, it’s very much a white collar job–there are immense of planning, scheduling, research, and just plain THINKING involved. I think that’s what a lot of the guys that you’re reading just don’t get, because that’s not their scene.
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Xantippe
Guest
Another thing–within the upper middle class, people very much want smart, high-achieving children. Therefore, they are very particular about seeking out smart, high-achieving spouses to raise their 2.00 children with. Upper middle class men aren’t just looking for a warm fertile body.
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Galbin
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Yep. I got zero instruction on how, what and why re: sex. Guess it was just the way in the 90s and noughties. Maybe parents are more open with their kids nowadays.
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Xantippe
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Galbin said:
“Yep. I got zero instruction on how, what and why re: sex. Guess it was just the way in the 90s and noughties. Maybe parents are more open with their kids nowadays.”
As I recall, public school sex ed in the late 80s was all about labeling anatomical diagrams and home sex ed consisted of being handed a book by Dr. Dobson with a picture of a sunset on the cover (my family was Protestant). The book was pretty good in its way (I may even hunt up a copy for my kids), but it just wasn’t adequate. I think my sum total of knowledge on what to do/what not to do with regard to dating was: premarital sex is bad and out-of-wedlock pregnancy is even worse. That’s not quite the full arsenal that a young woman needed before heading off to college in the early 90s.
I’ll have to remember to be more informative with my kids.
“Yep. I got zero instruction on how, what and why re: sex. Guess it was just the way in the 90s and noughties. Maybe parents are more open with their kids nowadays.”
As I recall, public school sex ed in the late 80s was all about labeling anatomical diagrams and home sex ed consisted of being handed a book by Dr. Dobson with a picture of a sunset on the cover (my family was Protestant). The book was pretty good in its way (I may even hunt up a copy for my kids), but it just wasn’t adequate. I think my sum total of knowledge on what to do/what not to do with regard to dating was: premarital sex is bad and out-of-wedlock pregnancy is even worse. That’s not quite the full arsenal that a young woman needed before heading off to college in the early 90s.
I’ll have to remember to be more informative with my kids.
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Galbin
Guest
Hi HolyFace
I get what you are saying re: beta females being more attractive to you. I dated a beta man once and he just got more and more unattractive to me over time. So I get what you are saying. However, what I am saying is that there are different strokes for different folks. My friend is an extremely successful alpha female, but that doesn’t mean she isn’t right for a beta male. She wouldn’t be happy with my dh for example, and she is a lovely person. Also, there are advantages and disadvantages to my personality. I may make a good wife in that I am naturally co-operative, easy going, not bossy and like to keep a clean home.I also think I’d make a very good mother if I were ever lucky enough to be so blessed. However, my career has been one disaster after another and I am sometimes too sensitive for this world. Whereas my alpha female friend is only 32 and already earns three times the average salary of an employee this country.
I cannot believe anyone over the age of 25 would actually ask for their partner’s number.
I don’t even really know if my dh was a virgin before he met me. He is unfortunately agnostic, and I can never get a straight answer from him. He jokes that he was, but then when I ask him does he mean it he tells me that he is only kidding around. I know he never had a proper relationship before me, but that he did have some complicated ones. So I don’t know.Again, maybe this is a cultural thing as the average marriage age is much, much lower in the US than in my country (the average marriage age for females here is 32). I know of several ppl who met their spouses when they were in their 30s. What does the “typical entitled American women” not offer? What does she want? Just curious, since I am not American…
There is absolutely nothing wrong with valuing virginity. That’s totally cool. What I am saying though is that one poster talked about how much society valued virgins as higher quality ppl. The sad truth however is that most ppl in society are not practicing Catholics and their reasons for valuing virginity tend more towards the perverted than the pure.
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Galbin
Guest
I totally agree…
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Xantippe
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Galbin said:
“Again, maybe this is a cultural thing as the average marriage age is much, much lower in the US than in my country (the average marriage age for females here is 32). I know of several ppl who met their spouses when they were in their 30s. What does the “typical entitled American women” not offer? What does she want? Just curious, since I am not American…”
I don’t know what holy face is going to say, but I would point out the following:
In many developed countries (for instance in Southern Europe or Asia), more “traditional” roles for women go hand in hand with later age of marriage and small families. Take for instance Italy: 34 for men and 31 for women. The average number of children per woman in Italy is 1.4. Or look at Japan–30.5 for men and about 29 for women and 1.39 kids per woman. The explanation I’ve seen for that is that in developed countries where a lot is expected of women at home and little is expected of men, women react by not wanting as many children because their husband is essentially yet another child to take care of. Meanwhile, in developed countries where fathers are more helpful, family sizes tend to be bigger. Take for example Scandinavia. Here are the numbers of children per woman in several Scandinavian countries:
kff.org/global-indicator/total-fertility-rate/
Denmark 1.73
Finland 1.73
Norway 1.77
Sweden 1.67
(The US is 2.06, by the way. I am talking about developed countries here, because those are the ones where women have the most control over their fertility and so family size most closely reflects their wishes.)
The modern American middle class family requires a high level of cooperation and understanding between the spouses–the kids are going here, the kids are going there, there’s a single family home to care for (rather than just an apartment, as in many countries), homework and school require huge amounts of effort, etc. Just the elementary (!) math curriculum alone can be nightmarish. I know a lot of guys dream of a less demanding non-American wife, but part of the reason American women are demanding is that the life itself is demanding, and they need all the help they can get. If you dropped a non-American woman into our life (particularly if she didn’t know how to drive, didn’t speak English fluently or was only moderately educated), she would have a heck of a time coping with normal family responsibilities.
In the US, middle class maternal responsibilities have shifted away from the traditional cooking and cleaning to more and more driving, managing kid extracurricular schedules, and overseeing schoolwork. On the one hand, there is genuinely less cooking and cleaning happening (which is where the “entitled” complaint has some justification), but on the other hand, there’s been an explosion of other responsibilities. I’m an SAHM to three kids and my mom was an SAHM to three kids, but our lives have been very different. She cooked way more than I do, but she had very, very little involvement with our school work or extracurriculars. The job description has changed a lot.
“Again, maybe this is a cultural thing as the average marriage age is much, much lower in the US than in my country (the average marriage age for females here is 32). I know of several ppl who met their spouses when they were in their 30s. What does the “typical entitled American women” not offer? What does she want? Just curious, since I am not American…”
I don’t know what holy face is going to say, but I would point out the following:
In many developed countries (for instance in Southern Europe or Asia), more “traditional” roles for women go hand in hand with later age of marriage and small families. Take for instance Italy: 34 for men and 31 for women. The average number of children per woman in Italy is 1.4. Or look at Japan–30.5 for men and about 29 for women and 1.39 kids per woman. The explanation I’ve seen for that is that in developed countries where a lot is expected of women at home and little is expected of men, women react by not wanting as many children because their husband is essentially yet another child to take care of. Meanwhile, in developed countries where fathers are more helpful, family sizes tend to be bigger. Take for example Scandinavia. Here are the numbers of children per woman in several Scandinavian countries:
kff.org/global-indicator/total-fertility-rate/
Denmark 1.73
Finland 1.73
Norway 1.77
Sweden 1.67
(The US is 2.06, by the way. I am talking about developed countries here, because those are the ones where women have the most control over their fertility and so family size most closely reflects their wishes.)
The modern American middle class family requires a high level of cooperation and understanding between the spouses–the kids are going here, the kids are going there, there’s a single family home to care for (rather than just an apartment, as in many countries), homework and school require huge amounts of effort, etc. Just the elementary (!) math curriculum alone can be nightmarish. I know a lot of guys dream of a less demanding non-American wife, but part of the reason American women are demanding is that the life itself is demanding, and they need all the help they can get. If you dropped a non-American woman into our life (particularly if she didn’t know how to drive, didn’t speak English fluently or was only moderately educated), she would have a heck of a time coping with normal family responsibilities.
In the US, middle class maternal responsibilities have shifted away from the traditional cooking and cleaning to more and more driving, managing kid extracurricular schedules, and overseeing schoolwork. On the one hand, there is genuinely less cooking and cleaning happening (which is where the “entitled” complaint has some justification), but on the other hand, there’s been an explosion of other responsibilities. I’m an SAHM to three kids and my mom was an SAHM to three kids, but our lives have been very different. She cooked way more than I do, but she had very, very little involvement with our school work or extracurriculars. The job description has changed a lot.
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