How important should a woman's career aspirations be when choosing a partner?

[OLHope]

I know I tend to be the pessimist of the forum, but only so much that I can weigh the pros and cons of a situation. Now I don’t want to say that the OP is trying to isolate his gf, but if she is saying hey, I want a career. Then she is saying the agreement you have and she has are not evenly yoked. The OP will need to conform, or she will need to conform. Otherwise like stated before it is a Dr. Laura problem. (I have been in an isolated dating relationship before, but luckily, slid out of it before he got even more demonic). To me, the OP is saying you sit still and take care of things at home and if there is an emergency, call me. His GF is saying hey we both do the same things during the day, and we come home and take care of things at night, and have equal dual responsibility taking care of all the household and child rearing responsibilities. Good for her! That is what “choosing a partner,” 50/50 is about.

She may not want to stay confined to the home responsibilities. It could feel like being a slave, and that is what insecure men suggest to them out of their own fears, and low self-esteemed, uneducated women resort to in the agreement/demands if they do not feel they can get a better life with someone else or by themselves. Nowadays its also vice versa, I have a few she-witch stories where they command over the man all the time, and I get angry when people criticize these guys for being effeminate,lazy, or suckers, when they are really just wanting to have peace in the house by not starting confrontation. So it is not any better if he stays home all the time either.

I grew up in a culture where most fathers didn’t even touch the baby until they were walking or running. Most of these women had to still work, not because they wanted to, because they had to. Is it still fair?

I have so wanted to wait for this thread to be buried as it stings me, and thank goodness it pangs other women in this thread, too, but I have just got to let it out, I finally am “allowed to view as much internet as I want to again.” Long story, need another thread to explain. At least I got back to doing most leisure stuff online again.

 

[OLHope]

This will be some help to the 1950’s b/w June Cleaver sitcom points:

On an episode of “Everybody loves Raymond” (I love the dynamics of marital relationships shown in this sitcom), Ray switches places with Debra as the “at-home parent.” In the beginning he boasts about bring the cheddar to the dinner table while she is to do what is expected of her (I think this is Se6 Ep13, not sure). Feeling under appreciated and resentful, she hands Ray a bill for about $120,000 bill/salary for laundry service, housecleaning, gourmet chef, driver, tutor, and nurse. Reasonable, no? As that is 20k per job for a 24/7 career. Ray’s immediate response is well a few jabs at her cooking, but “that he doesn’t even make that much.” I think the electricity ends up getting cut off at the end because of his financial maneuvering.
Is it really about the money or the principle? Hm, maybe both.

Another episode where Debra was so excited about going back to work, and Ray was upset about it, turned out the work-world couldn’t use a mommy again, and Debra was crushed, but Ray was happy.

Yet another episode where Debra runs for some Parent Council President thing for school, Ray does not like it, so he votes AGAINST his wife to ensure her loss (I think the deciding vote), so that she will stay put and he will not have more responsibility or obligations at home. Oh…My…Gosh!

 

[OLHope]

Story 1 – Deals specifically with topic (warning: this branches out a bit)
I personally know of a couple right now who are having problems because the wife’s at-home business was hurting because of the economy, but it was good as it went into the summer as she had her kids to help. Then the business got shut down for reasons I cannot disclose, long story short, they are now hurting financially. I told this woman about certain types of jobs to go for, but when the husband got home, he was trying to around any intention of her getting a job anywhere, and that instead he would just pick up a second job as long as she stayed home and did the matronly work. Note the fact that the father tracts all the family’s phone calls, emails, texts, and handles all the money (as they are not to have or handle any cash or credit/debit cards), wife is only allowed to use checks that are paid to company’s and not cash.

Well the wife has recently lost all of her baby weight and is looking very good. She has no college education, just specific training for which her at-home business provides. Now she is a head turner and he is on pins and needles with everything. Prior to her losing weight they both poked fun at each other’s bodies, her comments were more complementing, cute, and endearing about his body, whereas his comments were more condescending, derogatory, mean, and sarcastic. Really? In a marriage, and to other people? Isn’t marriage supposed to be pleasant and sacred? Maybe some of you married folk can answer this. (You don’t have to as it does not relate to the subject of the thread, and I am too lazy to start a new one and look over it, nor do I want any uproar to many posters here who seem to hate my spicy attitude).

Not to say that the husband cannot manage to pull two or three jobs while the wife holds down the fort. It seemed that the wife really wanted to get the jobs I recommended to her, and that her husband wants to prevent her from meeting new people or having a fun time at work over her home. He seemed more self-conscious about it. Like she could find a rich man, or more physically active man, someone who has better conversation, better friends, more getaways with work, and such.

What would you do as the mother in this case (kids are all grade school age)?

 

[sarahraegraham]

And all along my point has been is you can do this successfully while having a career. Many Catholic and otherwise families do this.

(And as for my view of what a housewife does, again and again I hear women who have worked and stayed at home saying that household chores are more difficult and take up all day. And it’s not just cleaning, but making 3+ sets of meals, shopping for food and other things, doing the dishes, and all others. Not my words, but the words of those who have done it. Not to mention that the husbands of these women often expect their wives to do 100% of it.)

Ah, yes, can try to do it all, but what’s the percentage of those who try and succeed vs. those who try and fail? We shouldn’t tell someone else to do, but we should encourage them to make whatever sacrifices are necessary for the most important things, to make them the priority. I don’t doubt your sincerity. I just don’t know a single one of those women, and I won’t take a chance like that on my family. Just me.

 

[OLHope]

Story 2 – Deals specifically with topics (warning: this branches off a lot)

A recent party I went to had a lot of families and a great example of not helping out was this: A mother has both of her young kids climbing all over her as her husband is not too far talking to me about aspirations and work, laughing and having a good time, while his wife is darting looks of death at him, because he’s just talking and having a beer instead of helping with the rambunctious kids!

She is a SAHM, he is a mortgage/foreclosure broker. THAT was the deal! That was enough to allow his wife to deal with kids/everything not only at home, but at functions, on vacations, etc…, all he has to worry about is how to get them from point A to Point B, and make sure he has all the money in the pocket, is that a fair deal?

So what would you do as the mother in this case, when you realize he just refuses to do anything, and you didn’t know any better at the time of the contract?

 

[RedSoxWife]

Finally, sadly, 50% of the marriages in the U.S. end in divorce. A woman is foolish not to plan for the possibility of this tragedy. 50% odds are too high–if the lottery had 50% odds of winning, even I would buy tickets.

Or a woman can trust in God and her husband and know that the sacrament of marriage cannot be dissolved. I don’t think I’m foolish not to plan for divorce. My faith is in God and his plan for my life. I devote my life to my husband and my family. And if that’s foolish I guess I’m happy to be a fool!

 

[OLHope]

What is the answer to the question? IT IS very important IF that is what she wants and she knows this ahead of time! She is smart for getting the contract together. She obviously wants the compromise and equal giving/taking of E5.

  Think about it OP, she went off to school taking out loans, or having people and scholarships fund her future goals and societal contributions.  She wants to see return on it (whether financial or integral), just as much as a man would, in that situation.  I happen to like feeling important and appreciated in my work as much as a man can/could be in their own career.  Not that being a SAHM or SAHD is not, but there is only so much joy and pride one can muster resorting to only having an allowance as the fruits of the efforts/labor and have all household members treat the at-home person like the maid/butler (if, of course, you are even that lucky to get an allowance, most SAH people I know must ask and then reveal what the money is for and must prove it with a receipt).

Sorry for making this sound so legal. Marriage shouldn’t be that way.
Woe is the spouse searcher. I was in a dating situation like I said before where the guy got too insecure, and now I am in another one currently that is going into isolation mode again, I am in the process of trying to release myself from this leach. It is so childish, I have had to explain every ounce of my whereabouts, phone calls, business, and who all my acquaintances are. After demands of tearing people off my networking sites, I put my foot down, and am trying very vehemently to lose this guy. Holy, my butt! This guy is everything BUT!I don’t think his insinuations and preoccupations with me should be in any way appropriate in dating or courting mode. It really just cannot make me even like him at all or appreciate that he “is only looking out for my best interests.”
Sorry I can’t live like that…, and sorry for spinning, but the stories and the questions made me go into this thought mode right away! Woo turning this into a personal rant. Sorry!

 

[OLHope]

**How important should a man’s career aspirations be when choosing a partner? **
Should it be any more important than a woman’s?

No one has to answer, as they have already anyhow, it is a throwback question and a great point that other posters are alluding toward.

 

[flyingfish]

Ah, yes, can try to do it all, but what’s the percentage of those who try and succeed vs. those who try and fail? We shouldn’t tell someone else to do, but we should encourage them to make whatever sacrifices are necessary for the most important things, to make them the priority. I don’t doubt your sincerity. I just don’t know a single one of those women, and I won’t take a chance like that on my family. Just me.

I would consider it a failure on my part if I raised daughters who believed they had to choose between having a family and pursuing their dreams. Do you want this for your own daughters (if you have them)? Just imagine, your little girl wants to be a doctor and have children of her own, what do you say to her? “Sorry honey, but you either have to be single for the rest of your life or give up your dreams. Your brothers can do both though.”

 

[OLHope]

I would consider it a failure on my part if I raised daughters who believed they had to choose between having a family and pursuing their dreams. Do you want this for your own daughters (if you have them)? Just imagine, your little girl wants to be a doctor and have children of her own, what do you say to her? “Sorry honey, but you either have to be single for the rest of your life or give up your dreams. Your brothers can do both though.”

Great point! I mentioned this already, but why spend 20-100k on college tuition in her debt, or your hard earned money for her to become barefoot and pregnant all day for ten some odd years or so?

I have a great story to back this up! I have told enough, I’m tired.

 

[ac_claire]

And all along my point has been is you can do this successfully while having a career. Many Catholic and otherwise families do this.

Sure…we’ve all known women and families who have done both and, to greater and lesser degrees, seemed to make it work somehow. But the fact is, as brilliant and strong as we may be, we are fallible human beings. I know that it’s physically impossible to give two separate full-time jobs 100% of my time, energy and attention. If I even try, one or both of them are going to suffer. That’s a fact. So I choose to make being a wife and mother at home my full time, 100% career as soon as we are able.

 

[ac_claire]

Great point! I mentioned this already, but why spend 20-100k on college tuition in her debt, or your hard earned money for her to become barefoot and pregnant all day for ten some odd years or so?

But what if that’s the only thing she truly wanted to do…? (While married, of course.) Also, I’m just talking about the no career, pregnant all day.10 years thing and not the barefoot part which is a safety hazard.

 

[OLHope]

But what if that’s the only thing she truly wanted to do…? (While married, of course.) Also, I’m just talking about the no career, pregnant all day.10 years thing and not the barefoot part which is a safety hazard.

THAT is entirely different, but the OP would not be asking if that was agreed or the case already.

As a paying parent I may bill the couple. LoL, JK, that’s mean.

Had I known prior, I would have pushed Jr. College, work, or courting.

A career usually(not always) indicates formal training or college.

 

[catherinette]

Great point! I mentioned this already, but why spend 20-100k on college tuition in her debt, or your hard earned money for her to become barefoot and pregnant all day for ten some odd years or so?.

Well, she clearly has to go to college to get her M.R.S. in the first place.

Frankly, I find it irritating when I hear other Catholics express the opinion that women who marry and have children have no place in the professional world; it simply is not the Church’s position that a man must go out and work while the woman must stay at home with the children!

Here is an excerpt from Pope John Paul II’s letter to women:

To this great, immense feminine “tradition” humanity owes a debt which can never be repaid. Yet how many women have been and continue to be valued more for their physical appearance than for their skill, their professionalism, their intellectual abilities, their deep sensitivity; in a word, the very dignity of their being!

And what shall we say of the obstacles which in so many parts of the world still keep women from being fully integrated into social, political and economic life? We need only think of how the gift of motherhood is often penalized rather than rewarded, even though humanity owes its very survival to this gift. Certainly, much remains to be done to prevent discrimination against those who have chosen to be wives and mothers. As far as personal rights are concerned, there is an urgent need to achieve real equality in every area: equal pay for equal work, protection for working mothers, fairness in career advancements, equality of spouses with regard to family rights and the recognition of everything that is part of the rights and duties of citizens in a democratic State.

This is a matter of justice but also of necessity. Women will increasingly play a part in the solution of the serious problems of the future: leisure time, the quality of life, migration, social services, euthanasia, drugs, health care, the ecology, etc. In all these areas a greater presence of women in society will prove most valuable, for it will help to manifest the contradictions present when society is organized solely according to the criteria of efficiency and productivity, and it will force systems to be redesigned in a way which favours the pro- cesses of humanization which mark the “civilization of love”.

 

[budgie2]

Most women nowadays pursue their careers through going on the contraceptive pill and sterilisation aswell as abortion. I might be looking up to a contraceptive and even abortive lifestyle which is venial sin if I’ve not committed these sins myself. I wouldn’t judge any woman on job title as my friends who both work in higher paid and caring professions have had abortions in order to do the job that they do. Staying at home with children has a very pro-life message. You will find that there are women who do not look up to career women at all. I don’t think it’s impossible for a woman to work alongside having children although it should not first priority and I would always consider myself to be the main carer of my children.

As a Catholic woman I would ask myself who my role models are, if I know their private lives and whether or not they are on the pill, sterilised or even have had an abortion. Am I judging a the worth of a woman’s life on job title? If so, I may need to go to Confession.

 

[Appleby]

The fastest growing demographic in the Western World is the unmarried women over the age of 35. The average age for women in Canada today is 40.

Assuming the man who started this thread meant to say should MARRIED women have careers and how ambitious should THEIR HUSBANDS PERMIT THEM TO BE (and assuming that the man who started this thread is not in fact promoting Sharia Law), then I believe this matter should be settled between the spouses before marriage, and the Patriarch should be required to provide sufficient insurance so that his little girl wife can pay for his last illness and not end up in a shelter when she is left a widow with no skills and cannot even write a cheque or find her way to the bank.

For those of us who do not marry, for one reason or another – and a large number of us choose spinsterhood and do not intend to camp in our own lives in the hopes that someday Prince Charming will give us a nice house, a great car, a cottage, and a houseful of nice linens, furniture, dishes and clothes – it is up to us individually as to what career we will have and how ambitious we should be. Forty years ago we settled the question as to whether or not men would be the sole gatekeepers of the lives of Girls, at least here in the West. These days it is up to the individual woman to decide whom she wishes to have run her life – her husband, a committee of men in the workplace, or God.

 

[Appleby]

**How important should a man’s career aspirations be when choosing a partner? **
Should it be any more important than a woman’s?

No one has to answer, as they have already anyhow, it is a throwback question and a great point that other posters are alluding toward.

The shelters are full of women who put their husbands through school and saw them to the point where their careers took off – whereupon Hubby Dearest dumped them for a Trophy Blonde. I personally know of one race car driver who dumped his lifelong, now pregnant girl friend and told her that it was her problem now and who let it be known that he was AUDITIONING for a new SO now that he had hit it big.

A mans career aspirations should be his rsponsibility, and his wife should make sure she is able to look after herself and the kids once he takes off with Fifi La Rue.

 

[ac_claire]

Frankly, I find it irritating when I hear other Catholics express the opinion that women who marry and have children have no place in the professional world; it simply is not the Church’s position that a man must go out and work while the woman must stay at home with the children!

I don’t know many who actually believe that though. Most people aren’t so black and white extreme. My grandma did it for several years, my mom did it too and they were fine. But to me, it’s simple math. I can’t give a career 100% of my time and attention and my family/household 100% of my time and attention. One of them is going to give, one is going to suffer if I attempt to “have it all”.

If I was ever in the situation where I had a family and I had no choice but to work, then I would do everything I could to make it work, to make the best of the situation. But that doesn’t mean I’m going to willingly choose that way of living. I’m only one person and I simply don’t want to spread myself too thin.

 

[GraceDK]

Most women nowadays pursue their careers through going on the contraceptive pill and sterilisation aswell as abortion. I might be looking up to a contraceptive and even abortive lifestyle which is venial sin if I’ve not committed these sins myself. I wouldn’t judge any woman on job title as my friends who both work in higher paid and caring professions have had abortions in order to do the job that they do. Staying at home with children has a very pro-life message. You will find that there are women who do not look up to career women at all. I don’t think it’s impossible for a woman to work alongside having children although it should not first priority and I would always consider myself to be the main carer of my children.

As a Catholic woman I would ask myself who my role models are, if I know their private lives and whether or not they are on the pill, sterilised or even have had an abortion. Am I judging a the worth of a woman’s life on job title? If so, I may need to go to Confession.

I think we all agree that both men and women need to put their family before their job and that one’s spouse and children should always be first priority.
I don’t know anyone who “judge a woman’s worth” on her job title, or a mans worth for that matter.
I come from a home with parents who both had full time jobs. My mom had a job that gave her time with us children because she was off between 2-3 every day. I missed my dad somewhat because his priority was not so much to spend time with us children. We were quite estranged and I was even scared of him sometimes.
My mother loves her job. She is one of the smartest people I know. I never heard her say “I dont know” when I asked her a question while growing up. She did the cooking and cleaning and helping with home work. I call her miracle mom. Was she taking on too much? yea, probably, but I would not ask her to loose her job over it. It rather have told my dad to start helping out some more with cleaning and kids and cooking.
As a daughter I am happy my mother had the job of her dreams and came home every day happy about her life.
Two things that benefit women are
to have a reason to get up in the morning, a motivation,
and having a network of people.
Back in a day where everyone were staying at home, eg as tribal people who were farming, fishing, sewing or hunting, there was not the kind of isolation that a sahm experiences these days.
I know women who were mentally unwell even when they had been home from work a few months with a new baby and moms and dads who were seriously bored and longed back to work.

 

[shell_217]

I am currently going through some difficulty in my marriage. I just finished a PhD and now my husband is emotionally withdrawn from the relationship. he says it was years of my always being in school. I think there is some truth. I think there should have been a better balance. I can say that education and career are a goal that both spouses should have the opportunity to have. Still, the greater goal in life will come from family and not from career achievements. I think that what would have helped me is to actually talk to my husband before we got married to lay out what our expectations of each other were. Perhaps, if there had been communication in terms of what I was going to be doing, how that would impact our family and future family plans, my marriage would not be going through crisis. These are just some thoughts from a woman who is put on the negative side of choosing career as a priority within marriage. Of course, communication is key with any of these decisions.