How is 2 Maccabees 12:43-46 evidence for Purgatory?

[Padrej]

I wonder now with the Vatican opening the way for Anglicans and Episcopalians who are disenfranchised over the openly gay bishop Gene Robinson and the way that the mainline Episcopal Church is heading towards openly practicing homosexuals in the clergy and wanting to do homosexual marriage, what effect these new priests are going to have on the belief in Purgatory. These Priests and Bishops that will be coming in will be allowed to keep on using their liturgies which do not mention Purgatory and their theological training is counter to it. Will this flood of “Protestant thought” sway the Catholic church or shake its foundations?

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

They still have to be trained. If they are honest, they are becoming Catholic by accepting what the Church teaches. Otherwise I would not call them Catholics. It is an interesting speculation.

 

[Padrej]

They still have to be trained. If they are honest, they are becoming Catholic by accepting what the Church teaches. Otherwise I would not call them Catholics. It is an interesting speculation.

I am curious as to what you mean by, “have to be trained.” From the offers that I have read that have come to my attention as an Anglican that don’t mention “retraining.” There will be a re-ordaining of some depending on their orders. They (The Vatican) are allowing us to come in with our liturgy in tact. I do know that under John Paul II there were some “Anglican Use” parishes but they have a special Vatican approved Prayer book. To me it smacks of (and this is my opinion) wanting to fill a clergy shortage with known conservatives fast.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Will this flood of “Protestant thought” sway the Catholic church or shake its foundations?

After 2,000 years of battling heretics of all stripes, Padrej, I think the Church’s foundations will withstand the influx of a few Anglican priests.

I hope you are among them, though.

 

[Javl]

I wonder now with the Vatican opening the way for Anglicans and Episcopalians who are disenfranchised over the openly gay bishop Gene Robinson and the way that the mainline Episcopal Church is heading towards openly practicing homosexuals in the clergy and wanting to do homosexual marriage, what effect these new priests are going to have on the belief in Purgatory. These Priests and Bishops that will be coming in will be allowed to keep on using their liturgies which do not mention Purgatory and their theological training is counter to it. Will this flood of “Protestant thought” sway the Catholic church or shake its foundations?

Possible that they may be “brainwashed” to accept Purgatory? I hope not. I doubt very
much that it will affect the Church’s stance, or even shake it up. The Church is too rigid
when it comes to that. Also what bothers me greatly is that there are many Catholics,
probably some clergy too, that are against admitting Anglicans and Episcopalians unless
they become totally “Latinized”. That is reject their liturgies and submit totally to Roman
Catholicism. I say that since some Eastern Orthodox Churches have submitted to Rome
and still keep their Liturgies then why can’t the Anglicans and Episcopalians keep theirs?
Isn’t the Catholic Church Universal? This means not only in scope but in worship and
Liturgy, etc. also. These are my thoughts.

Len

P.S. I think that there are some of the Eastern Churches that don’t accept the Roman
Catholic concept of Purgatory.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Padrej]

Possible that they may be “brainwashed” to accept Purgatory? I hope not. I doubt very
much that it will affect the Church’s stance, or even shake it up. The Church is too rigid
when it comes to that. Also what bothers me greatly is that there are many Catholics,
probably some clergy too, that are against admitting Anglicans and Episcopalians unless
they become totally “Latinized”. That is reject their liturgies and submit totally to Roman
Catholicism. I say that since some Eastern Orthodox Churches have submitted to Rome
and still keep their Liturgies then why can’t the Anglicans and Episcopalians keep theirs?
Isn’t the Catholic Church Universal? This means not only in scope but in worship and
Liturgy, etc. also. These are my thoughts.

Len

P.S. I think that there are some of the Eastern Churches that don’t accept the Roman
Catholic concept of Purgatory.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

GOOD point. the Eastern Orthodox who have come under Rome DO NOT accept the concept of Purgatory. I have attended some of their masses and they will be quick to tell you that they do not espouse it.

 

[Javl]

GOOD point. the Eastern Orthodox who have come under Rome DO NOT accept the concept of Purgatory. I have attended some of their masses and they will be quick to tell you that they do not espouse it.

Although there are many things in which the Orthodox and Catholics agree, there are just as many differences between them. One bone of contention is the Assumption of Mary. The Orthodox call it the Dormition. Yet, it seems that apparitions of Mary have occured only among Catholics. That is, recorded and/or documented ones. I have not come across or have heard of any others. This leaves one wondering…

But I’m getting off the subject. That should be for another thread.

Len

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[clmowry]

I am curious as to what you mean by, “have to be trained.” From the offers that I have read that have come to my attention as an Anglican that don’t mention “retraining.” There will be a re-ordaining of some depending on their orders. They (The Vatican) are allowing us to come in with our liturgy in tact. I do know that under John Paul II there were some “Anglican Use” parishes but they have a special Vatican approved Prayer book. To me it smacks of (and this is my opinion) wanting to fill a clergy shortage with known conservatives fast.

Is the text of the constitution out yet?

In any case I read in one article that the Anglican bishops had to sign off on the Catechism and a separate statement on the role of the Bishop of Rome.

I would suspect some similar profession of accepting the Catholic faith (in it’s entirety) would have to be made by any converting priests.

Chuck

 

[clmowry]

GOOD point. the Eastern Orthodox who have come under Rome DO NOT accept the concept of Purgatory. I have attended some of their masses and they will be quick to tell you that they do not espouse it.

Is this documented as officially acceptable somewhere?

It would certainly make “unification” easier if folks were allowed to “opt out” on certain secondary theological issues.

This seems to me to be very unlikely to be the acutal case.

Chuck

 

[Javl]

Is this documented as officially acceptable somewhere?

It would certainly make “unification” easier if folks were allowed to “opt out” on certain secondary theological issues.

This seems to me to be very unlikely to be the acutal case.

Chuck

As far as I have learned, the concept of Purgatory is a doctrine but it is not dogma. It is a theological issue which has been wrestled with down through the ages, much like Limbo
for unbaptized infants. I accept and believe in its existence. I guess the only way we will
truly find out about it is when we first meet our Creator. God Bless.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[clmowry]

As far as I have learned, the concept of Purgatory is a doctrine but it is not dogma. It is a theological issue which has been wrestled with down through the ages, much like Limbo
for unbaptized infants. I accept and believe in its existence. I guess the only way we will
truly find out about it is when we first meet our Creator. God Bless.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

It’s refered to as “doctrine” in the CCC. This requires assent, no?

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY
1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still
imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but
after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness
necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification
of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment 954, 1472
of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on
Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The
tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture,
speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the
Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says
that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will
be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From
this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be
forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

 

[Padrej]

Is this documented as officially acceptable somewhere?

It would certainly make “unification” easier if folks were allowed to “opt out” on certain secondary theological issues.

This seems to me to be very unlikely to be the acutal case.

Chuck

According to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith’s statement of October 20, 2009 inviting Anglicans to “swim the Tiber,” the following may answer your question as to “documentation” of groups coming in and “opting out of certain issues”
“Many individual Anglicans have entered into full communion with the Catholic Church. Sometimes there have been groups of Anglicans who have entered while preserving some “corporate” structure. Examples of this include, the Anglican diocese of Amritsar in India, and some individual parishes in the United States which maintained an Anglican identity when entering the Catholic Church under a “pastoral provision” adopted by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and approved by Pope John Paul II in 1982. In these cases, the Catholic Church has frequently dispensed from the requirement of celibacy to allow those married Anglican clergy who desire to continue ministerial service as Catholic priests to be ordained in the Catholic Church.”
Also
"It is the hope of the Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI, that the Anglican clergy and faithful who desire union with the Catholic Church will find in this canonical structure the opportunity to preserve those Anglican traditions precious to them and consistent with the Catholic faith. Insofar as these traditions express in a distinctive way the faith that is held in common, they are a gift to be shared in the wider Church. **The unity of the Church does not require a uniformity that ignores cultural diversity, **as the history of Christianity shows.”
Taking from this it sounds like belief in Purgatory may not have to be fully espoused.

 

[Javl]

It’s refered to as “doctrine” in the CCC. This requires assent, no?

Not necessarily. There is still the doctrine of Limbo which is itself in limbo and does not require assent. A doctrine is a teaching, a tenet is a belief, and a dogma is a teaching and belief that is necessary for salvation. A teaching may or may not be acceptable.
Until it is defined as dogma, Purgatory remains a doctrine of the Church.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

padrej

It is the hope of the Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI, that the Anglican clergy and faithful who desire union with the Catholic Church will find in this canonical structure the opportunity to preserve those Anglican traditions precious to them and consistent with the Catholic faith. Insofar as these traditions express in a distinctive way the faith that is held in common, they are a gift to be shared in the wider Church. The unity of the Church does not require a uniformity that ignores cultural diversity, as the history of Christianity shows.”
Taking from this it sounds like belief in Purgatory may not have to be fully espoused.

Proof of cultural diversity within the Catholic Church are the numerous Eastern Rite Churches that are in communion with Rome and also, quite important, are The Hebrew
Catholics who keep their cultural identity as Jews within the Church ( hebrewcatholics.org ), Only the Catholic Church can claim to be Universal in scope, liturgy, and culture.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

Retaining a cultural identity refers to the beauty of the Anglican customs and liturgy, not dogmatic beliefs. You’d still have to accept purgatory.

 

[clmowry]

Not necessarily. There is still the doctrine of Limbo which is itself in limbo and does not require assent. A doctrine is a teaching, a tenet is a belief, and a dogma is a teaching and belief that is necessary for salvation. A teaching may or may not be acceptable.
Until it is defined as dogma, Purgatory remains a doctrine of the Church.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Ah, but I think that’s the distinction. Limbo is not a “doctrine” it is in the category of theological speculation and would therefore not require assent. (I think.)

Chuck

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

No. Purgatory is a doctrine. You are required to believe it. 1030-1032 & 1472 of the Catechism outline it.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

You are correct, Limbo was never made a dogma. It was simply theological speculation, largely due to the idea of unbaptized infants.

 

[Padrej]

Retaining a cultural identity refers to the beauty of the Anglican customs and liturgy, not dogmatic beliefs. You’d still have to accept purgatory.

With all due respect, everything that I am reading thus far from my superiors coming from the Vatican does not indicate accepting EVERYTHING. The Orthodox who come in do not except the Assumption nor Purgatory. It is my understanding, to use simplistic terms we are going to be treated more like military chaplains_NOT saying we are. That way we can retain our beliefs and liturgy and not have to 100% accept everything. We would be bound by the catechism in matters of church law. Because of the “chaplain like” status we would have more freedom as we could maintain married clergy, just as the Orthodox who have come in.
We would have to, most, be re-ordained.

 

[clmowry]

With all due respect, everything that I am reading thus far from my superiors coming from the Vatican does not indicate accepting EVERYTHING. The Orthodox who come in do not except the Assumption nor Purgatory. It is my understanding, to use simplistic terms we are going to be treated more like military chaplains_NOT saying we are. That way we can retain our beliefs and liturgy and not have to 100% accept everything. We would be bound by the catechism in matters of church law. Because of the “chaplain like” status we would have more freedom as we could maintain married clergy, just as the Orthodox who have come in.
We would have to, most, be re-ordained.

I’m just an interested bystander who didn’t think he’d get to see anything like this in his lifetime.

There are what, something like 70 million Anglicans. If say 10% enter into communion with the Catholic Church at one time…wow! What a wonderful step towards being “one”.

You would know more than I. I’m having a “fact free” discussion based on quotes from 2nd and 3rd hand sources.

I’ve always thought that many of the things that separate us are quite frankly linguistic semantics.

I’m just really interested to see how this is all being worked out.

If it can happen once, maybe it can happen again, and again, and again.

Though I knew anything is possible for God, I thought something like this was a practical impossibility.

Yeah God!

Chuck