How is 2 Maccabees 12:43-46 evidence for Purgatory?

[happilycatholic]

Please tell me where I have added anything to Catholic theology here, but be very careful in your looking it over.

Okay here are the basics, THIS is what the Church teaches on Purgatory (taken from the Vatican website:

**III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY **

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name *Purgatory *to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:
Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611
NOWHERE does it mention punishment! If you want to look at punishment, go to the part on HELL.

I’m sorry for being blunt and very textually loud, but it is right there in black and white.

Please either give me the reasons you think my interpretation of the catechism is incorrect, or let it be.

It won’t matter how many times I tell you what the Church teaches, you will continue to tell me they don’t.

Like I said, I will argue with you about the differences between what you and I believe. But there is no difference in what I believe and what the Church teaches.

God Bless.

 

[clmowry]

Thank you Nathan for making my point.
In the Catechism under the definition of indulgence:

Part 2, Section 2, Chapter 2, Article 4, SubSection 10
1471 The doctrine and practice of indulgences in the Church are closely linked to the effects of the sacrament of Penance.
What is an indulgence?
**“An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, **which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints.”
"An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin." The faithful can gain indulgences for themselves or apply them to the dead.

If there was no punishment in Purgatory, there would be no need for indulgences. Although it is nice to think that Purgatory is not punishment, you cannot accept and indulgence for yourself or anyone else if there was no punishment in Purgatory. Keep those plenary indulgences coming you will get there.

Actually, I think, “if” there were no Purgatory then it would be required instead that “temporal punishment” (elimination of the unhealthy Earthly attachments) take place before death.

In which case the Church’s right to grant an Indulgence would still be valid, just not applicable to the dead.

Chuck

 

[Padrej]

Okay here are the basics, THIS is what the Church teaches on Purgatory (taken from the Vatican website:

**III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY **

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name *Purgatory *to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:
Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611
NOWHERE does it mention punishment! If you want to look at punishment, go to the part on HELL.

I’m sorry for being blunt and very textually loud, but it is right there in black and white.

Please either give me the reasons you think my interpretation of the catechism is incorrect, or let it be.

It won’t matter how many times I tell you what the Church teaches, you will continue to tell me they don’t.

Like I said, I will argue with you about the differences between what you and I believe. But there is no difference in what I believe and what the Church teaches.

God Bless.

Being confession is good for the soul, the post that you just picked apart of mine was verbatim from the Catholic Encyclopedia, so if you have a problem with my post you would have a problem with it also.
What you posted is only a small portion of what is there on the subject of Purgatory. My point that I was trying to prove was that you accused me of adding “Protestant thought” to Purgatory so I directly posted from the Catholic Encyclopedia and waited to see if you would label it wrong because of the source (me being Protestant). It appears to me that I have been found to be correct. Thank you.

 

[happilycatholic]

Being confession is good for the soul, the post that you just picked apart of mine was verbatim from the Catholic Encyclopedia, so if you have a problem with my post you would have a problem with it also.
What you posted is only a small portion of what is there on the subject of Purgatory. My point that I was trying to prove was that you accused me of adding “Protestant thought” to Purgatory so I directly posted from the Catholic Encyclopedia and waited to see if you would label it wrong because of the source (me being Protestant). It appears to me that I have been found to be correct. Thank you.

What? Your position from the beginning of this conversation has been that my comments don’t align with the Catechism of the Catholic Church. My problem has never been with ‘what’ you posted. My problem is with your interpretation of it.

So no, you are not correct. You stated that Purgatory is punishment. Purgatory is not punishment.

Your entire position has been that i am wrong and the Church agrees with you. Not so and you’ve proven it with your own posts.

 

[clmowry]

This is leaving me scratching my head at the fact that you a Catholic do not even espouse what the catechism CLEARLY teaches on Purgatory.
The catechism teaches that Purgatory is PART OF the absolution process. The Absolution wipes the sin away but you still have to do the “time for the crime” so to speak. This is where indulgences come in. Through indulgences the time in Purgatory is eliminated.
So if we are posting and quoting what is clearly stated in the catechism, how can we “all be wrong” as you so contend.

As you’ve indicated, I think we need to stick with discussing what the Church has actually taught us to be true: “1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification [temporal punishment], so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. 1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.”

“Temporal Punishment: Purification of the unhealthy attachment to creatures, which is a consequence of sin that perdures even after death. We must be purified either during our earthly life through prayer and a conversion which comes from fervent charity, or after death in purgatory.”

Etc.

When we start speculating on how, where or how long it takes for this to happen I believe we are just simply opining about that which no one can be certain.

Which I guess is good fodder for folks who like to debate things.

Chuck

 

[happilycatholic]

Tonya

Lets get to basics.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a “purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven,” which is experienced by those “who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified” (CCC 1030). It notes that “this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned” (CCC 1031).
The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.

 

[clmowry]

The following are taken from Catholic Prayer books and missals and are prayers for those in Purgatory that mention “torment” and “judgment” and Purgatory being a “prison of pain.”

Prayer for Mercy on the Souls in Purgatory

My Jesus, by the sorrows Thou didst suffer in Thine agony in the Garden, in Thy scourging and crowning with thorns, in the way to Calvary, in Thy crucifixion and death, have mercy on the souls in purgatory, and especially on those that are most forsaken; do Thou deliver them from the dire torments they endure; call them and admit them to Thy most sweet embrace in paradise.
Our Father, Hail Mary, Eternal Rest, etc.

PRAYER FOR THE SOULS IN PURGATORY
O holy souls in Purgatory, Who are the certain heirs of heaven, Souls most dear to Jesus As the trophies Of his Precious Blood, And to Mary, Mother of Mercy, Obtain for me Through your intercession The grace to lead a holy life, To die a happy death And to attain To the blessedness Of eternity in heaven.
Dear Suffering Souls, Who languish in your Prison of pain And long to be delivered In order to praise And glorify God in heaven, By your unfailing pity Help me at this time,
[State your intention(s) here…]
That I may obtain relief And assistance from God.
In gratitude For your intercession I offer to God on your behalf The satisfactory merits Of all my works And sufferings of this day/week/month. (The time that you determine.)

PRAYER FOR THE SOULS IN PURGATORY
O gentle Heart of Jesus, ever present in the Blessed Sacrament, ever consumed with burning love for the poor captive souls in Purgatory, have mercy on them.
Be not severe in Your judgments, but let some drops of Your Precious Blood fall upon the devouring flames.
And, Merciful Savior, send Your angels to conduct them to a place of refreshment, light and peace.
Amen.

My Jesus, by the sorrows You suffered in Your agony in the Garden, in Your scourging and crowning with thorns, in Your journey to Calvary, in Your crucifixion and death, have mercy on the souls in purgatory, and especially on those that are most forsaken; deliver them from the torments they endure; call them and admit them to Your most sweet embrace in paradise, where You live with the Father and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever. Amen

Is it small wonder that after reading these that it is not popular to think of Purgatory as a “nice” place?

I don’t think it should be any wonder at all that we don’t think it is a “nice” place [process].

It is a doctrine based on a Tradition of prayers for the dead to be released from an “unpleasant” situation and supported by some rather “unpleasant” verses of scripture.

1 Cor. 3:15 “But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.”

That doesn’t sound like any fun to me at all.

Chuck

 

[Padrej]

What? Your position from the beginning of this conversation has been that my comments don’t align with the Catechism of the Catholic Church. My problem has never been with ‘what’ you posted. My problem is with your interpretation of it.

So no, you are not correct. You stated that Purgatory is punishment. Purgatory is not punishment.

Your entire position has been that i am wrong and the Church agrees with you. Not so and you’ve proven it with your own posts.

How can you call Purgatory not punishment when it has been established by the Council of Trent, echoed by St. Augustine, Bonaventure, Tertullian, Cyprian, Cyril of Jerusalem, and countless other doctors of the church?
May I suggest to you the following book: “The Birth of Purgatory” By Jacques Le Goff as an excellent source on both current Catholic teachings on Purgatory as well as the early church.
So madam I have not stated in any way that is contrary to the church but rather I have echoed what the church has been teaching on the matter for centuries as well as those others on this thread who agree that Purgatory is punishment. If you choose to view it as not being punishment against thousands of years of Catholic teachings to the contrary, please be my guest.
On the last post I merely pulled verbatim from the Catholic encyclopedia on the matter where it mentions punishment as well. So if the Catholic Encyclopedia teaches that it is punishment are you now saying that the Catholic Encyclopedia is also wrong?

 

[clmowry]

Please tell me where I have added anything to Catholic theology here, but be very careful in your looking it over.

For what it’s worth, this looks to be a good summary of Catholic teaching to me. I don’t see that you’ve “added” anything here.

I think the only thing you need to be clear on is not using “punishment” and “temporal punishment” as interchangeable terms.

I think “temporal punishment” has a very specific definition that is not necessarily explicit in the “scholarly” explanation you site.

“Temporal Punishment: Purification of the unhealthy attachment to creatures, which is a consequence of sin that perdures even after death. We must be purified either during our earthly life through prayer and a conversion which comes from fervent charity, or after death in purgatory.”

I would guess this is why the term is omitted from the Purgatory section of the catechism all together. i.e. To help avoid such confusion.

Chuck

 

[clmowry]

Being confession is good for the soul, the post that you just picked apart of mine was verbatim from the Catholic Encyclopedia, so if you have a problem with my post you would have a problem with it also.
What you posted is only a small portion of what is there on the subject of Purgatory. My point that I was trying to prove was that you accused me of adding “Protestant thought” to Purgatory so I directly posted from the Catholic Encyclopedia and waited to see if you would label it wrong because of the source (me being Protestant). It appears to me that I have been found to be correct. Thank you.

I often refer to the Catholic Encyclopedia myself.

Though a very good source of information, I think it is important to remember that everything contained there in is not necessarily officially taught by the Catholic Church to be true.

Chuck

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

HappilyCatholic, it’s punishment. An inventive reading of the catechism doesn’t change that. Accusing Padrej of Protestant eisegesis was a bit ridiculous as well. Purgatory is an extension of temporal punishment. It has ALWAYS been viewed as such. Punishment by God has a corrective purpose. Trying to get rid of the “negative stigma” to the point where you deny Church tradition and teaching on its nature is self-defeating and I would say dishonest. I think you would find yourself in the minority here.

 

[Padrej]

For what it’s worth, this looks to be a good summary of Catholic teaching to me. I don’t see that you’ve “added” anything here.

I think the only thing you need to be clear on is not using “punishment” and “temporal punishment” as interchangeable terms.

I think “temporal punishment” has a very specific definition that is not necessarily explicit in the “scholarly” explanation you site.

“Temporal Punishment: Purification of the unhealthy attachment to creatures, which is a consequence of sin that perdures even after death. We must be purified either during our earthly life through prayer and a conversion which comes from fervent charity, or after death in purgatory.”

I would guess this is why the term is omitted from the Purgatory section of the catechism all together. i.e. To help avoid such confusion.

Chuck

I actually “added” nothing. I realise there is also a difference between punishment and temporal punishment. The point is that there is a form of punishment that goes on in Purgatory, IT IS NOT HELL, so don’t start down the road thinking that. Hell is punishment of the damned. The Church Catholic has made a distinction that the “punishment” of Purgatory is for lack of better words the penalty phase of our being forgiven. I can be forgiven of a sin, but I still have to suffer the consequences of my actions.
For example: (I know this is an earthly one but it makes my point) lets say I am sexually active with many partners which is a sin. I can be forgiven/absolved of that. BUT at the same time I contract a sexually transmitted disease, that is the consequence of my actions that I must live with. Do I go to the Doctor to get the “cure” (the works of charity if we are comparing indulgences in analogy) or do I continue with this disease and pay for this with a future wife (heaven). But the wife wants me clean before she has anything to do with me so I must go through the doctor’s treatments so I can have my wife pure and spotless.

 

[Padrej]

I don’t think it should be any wonder at all that we don’t think it is a “nice” place [process].

It is a doctrine based on a Tradition of prayers for the dead to be released from an “unpleasant” situation and supported by some rather “unpleasant” verses of scripture.

1 Cor. 3:15 “But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.”

That doesn’t sound like any fun to me at all.

Chuck

Maybe that is why Protestants do not adhere to it, we like fun too much.

 

[clmowry]

Maybe that is why Protestants do not adhere to it, we like fun too much.

Well I guess that depends upon the protestant (and Catholic alike).

Some seem dead set against anything remotely resembling fun.

Others seem dead set against anything remotely resembling any limitations on how they choose to have fun.

Chuck

 

[Javl]

No dear, listen to what you yourself are saying. You are referring to the punishments that are remedied by Purgatory, not Purgatory.

Everybody slow down and READ.

Purgatory is not punishment. It is remedy “for” the punishment.

See this statement here:

"This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. "

Temporal punishment is NOT Purgatory. It is an unhealthy attachement to something that is bad for your soul.

How could “Purgatory free one form what is called the “Purgatory” of sin”? I’m sorry, but you are all incorrect on this one.

Purgatory is a REMEDY for temporal punishment. That is why the quote references a “freeing from” the punishment.

There are two elements to being obsolved of sin. There is the eternal punishment attached to sin and the temporal punishment attached to sin.

ABSOLUTION frees us from both. See:

Absolution is the remission of sin, or of the punishment due to sin, granted by the Church.

If you are not absolved of a sin you will have both eternal AND temporal punishment attached to your soul due to said sin. Punishment is NOT an act, but rather the state your soul is in due to the sin you’ve committed.

So, Purgatory frees us from whatever temporal punishment was attached to a sin that for whatever reason, we were not totally obsolved from.

There are several reasons that a person may not be properly obsolved of a sin. One is lack of form in your confession. Another is lack of sincerety to repent.

Thus, Purgatory.

God Bless.

For a correct understanding of Purgatory as taught by the CC, please read 1032-1034 in
the Catholic Catechism. Purgatory is the punishment due to the consequences of sin, even though the sin has been absolved. God’s justice does demand punishment.

Induldgences given by the CC, under the authority of Jesus, help to reduce the term of punishment in Purgatory. Indulgences are obtained only in a state of grace by acts of faith, charity, and prayer. They may be applied to anyone in Purgatory.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[happilycatholic]

HappilyCatholic, it’s punishment. An inventive reading of the catechism doesn’t change that. Accusing Padrej of Protestant eisegesis was a bit ridiculous as well. Purgatory is an extension of temporal punishment. It has ALWAYS been viewed as such. Punishment by God has a corrective purpose. Trying to get rid of the “negative stigma” to the point where you deny Church tradition and teaching on its nature is self-defeating and I would say dishonest. I think you would find yourself in the minority here.

And an incorrect interpretation doesn’t change the fact that Purgatory is not synonomous with temporal punishment. I’m sorry. You are incorrect. I’m not sure why those on this site who don’t even adhere to the teaching are so enamored with what it is or is not.

Temporal punishment BEGINS at the moment the sin is committed so by your definition we are now in Purgatory. Yes, that makes perfect sense. And the fact that the Catechism never calls it punishment cannot be speculated on. It is what it is.

The only “negative stigma” attached to Purgatory has been done by you, not by me.

I have denied no Church Tradition and have even given all the Church teaching to prove that.

How can you say I’m dishonest when I am the ONE (minority here) that HAS agreed with the Church on the matter? Am I to simply agree with you as if you are some authority on the matter?

I think not. I can read. Those who read the Catechism can read what they will into it and believe what they wish. I prefer the Church’s definition and teaching as opposed to yours and that of Padrej and whomever else wants to interpret the Catechism on their own.

These are not my opinions, but those of the Church. What you posted on the Council of Trent doesn’t stand in opposition to what I’ve said. As I’ve said over and over, it is yours and Padrej’s errant interpretation of temporal punishment.

And YES, your view of Purgatory is absolutely in line with that of many Protestant Churches, particularly the Baptist faith.

I am fine to leave you with your opinion of what temporal punishment is and I’ll take that of the Church.

Thanks.

 

[happilycatholic]

For a correct understanding of Purgatory as taught by the CC, please read 1032-1034 in
the Catholic Catechism. Purgatory is the punishment due to the consequences of sin, even though the sin has been absolved. God’s justice does demand punishment.

Induldgences given by the CC, under the authority of Jesus, help to reduce the term of punishment in Purgatory. Indulgences are obtained only in a state of grace by acts of faith, charity, and prayer. They may be applied to anyone in Purgatory.

PAX DOMINI

I don’t know what Catechism you are talking about but I’ve posted this before. All you have to do is read it. Now, read it and I’m open to you showing me where it states that Purgatory is temporal punishment:

Here you go:

**III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY **
1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
[1031](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1031.htm’) The Church gives the name *Purgatory *to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

[1032](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1032.htm’) This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:
Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611

AND it states in plain text that this is not to be confused with the punishment of the damned.

You are setting yourself up for a moment of doubt when a non-catholic shows you from Scripture how God does not punish us with the fires of hell twice. You are teaching something that is outside the Catechism and not correct.

But as I said, I’ll leave you to your own interpretation of the Catechism. I just wish someone would give an argument and not merely keep parroting what they’ve said before.

So far, no one has shown me from the Catechism (which was the medium of faith doctrine first quoted to me) that Purgatory is punishment or the same as temporal punishment.

 

[happilycatholic]

"So if the Catholic Encyclopedia teaches that it is punishment are you now saying that the Catholic Encyclopedia is also wrong? "

I’ve already stated that I don’t get my faith doctrine from “Catholic Encyclopedia”. It is a helpful source of theology, but not necessarily correct.

Somewhat like Wikipedia, only probably slightly more dependable.

 

[happilycatholic]

See here what Pope John Paul II has to say about Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory:

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM#Purgatory

It is obviously a link to an article on EWTN.

Please note that ‘punishment’ is only mentioned in the part about hell. Purgatory is regarded as purification and to be administered by Christ Himself.

I’m sorry but catholics don’t go to pre-hell to receive ‘punishment’ for sins they’ve not recieved absolution. They are ‘purified’ of those punishments (which they are already experiencing) in Purgatory. That is not to say that the purification won’t hurt worse than the actual punishment itself.

I think because folks tend to relate pain and suffering to hell and those things associated with it, they tend to look at the purification of Purgatory as some sort of pre-hell where people are just simply punished for what they’ve done.

This is not the case. There’s no Scriptural evidence of that and that’s why the Church has long since abandoned the theology of a sort of “prison”. The Church leaves what Purgatory actually is very open for a reason. The Church doesn’t tend to define the three states in detail. The Church does however, define the state of the soul in each of these. The soul is saved and without sin in Heaven. The soul is in a state of purification in Purgatory. The soul is in an eternal state of punishemnt/damnation in hell, apart from God forever. That’s it.

The Church tends to lean on the side of God’s mercy rather than the wrath of God…until we get to hell. In hell there is no mercy, only wrath.

I’m not sure what more I can say on this matter. If even our catholic brothers and sisters insist on going against Church teaching.

Sad.

 

[happilycatholic]

javl:

This is for you:

temporal:1. Of or pertaining to time, that is, to the present life, or this world; secular, as distinguished from sacred or eternal.

This means temporal punishment if of this life, not the next. Purgatory can have nothing to do with anything temporal since it exists outside of time. This is what the Catechism means in it’s curious statement about “attachment to creatures of this world”.

I think too many believe that the word “temporal” means temporary. That is not correct. That may be where the confusion lies.

God Bless all here.

~Tonya