How is 2 Maccabees 12:43-46 evidence for Purgatory?

[happilycatholic]

padrej:

The next time you ‘google’ to get a convenient name of some random author to post as if you’ve read the book, make sure you’re not quoting an agnostic to a catholic:

In his 1984 book The Birth of Purgatory he argued that the conception of purgatory as a physical place, rather than merely as a state, dates to the 12th century, the heyday of medieval otherworld-journey narratives such as the Irish Visio Tnugdali, and of pilgrims’ tales about St. Patrick’s Purgatory, a cavelike entrance to purgatory on a remote island in Ireland.[1]
An agnostic, Le Goff presents an equidistant position between the detractors and the apologists of the Middle Ages. His opinion is that the Middle Ages formed a civilization of its own, distinct of both the Greco-Roman antiquity and the modern world.

This guy stands directly in opposition to the Church on Purgatory.

Good one.

Try again. This time maybe a book you’ve actually read.

God Bless

 

[happilycatholic]

I forgot, and this may help.

“Temporal” does not mean “temporary”. It means outside of time. Hence the opposite of “eternal” punishment. So, temporal punishment actually means “earthly consequences”. These are consequences inflicted on earth. We cannot take earthly consequences to Heaven with us.

The adverb form of temporal is temporally, not temporarily.

So, when Catholic Encyclopedia says this:

Purgatory (Lat., “purgare”, to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God’s grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.

It means a place or more properly a condition of earthly consequences. In other words it’s merely saying we’ve got baggage. It is not referring to the purification but rather the reason for it.

God Bless.

 

[Padrej]

padrej:

The next time you ‘google’ to get a convenient name of some random author to post as if you’ve read the book, make sure you’re not quoting an agnostic to a catholic:
**What makes you believe that I have done such? What proof do you have of such an inflammatory statement? They guy quotes quite a bit from Catholic sources. Just because the guy is agnostic does not mean you should not read it or give it credence, last I knew we were not in pre WWII Germany that banned books because of their authors. **

In his 1984 book The Birth of Purgatory he argued that the conception of purgatory as a physical place, rather than merely as a state, dates to the 12th century, the heyday of medieval otherworld-journey narratives such as the Irish Visio Tnugdali, and of pilgrims’ tales about St. Patrick’s Purgatory, a cavelike entrance to purgatory on a remote island in Ireland.[1]
An agnostic, Le Goff presents an equidistant position between the detractors and the apologists of the Middle Ages. His opinion is that the Middle Ages formed a civilization of its own, distinct of both the Greco-Roman antiquity and the modern world.

This guy stands directly in opposition to the Church on Purgatory.
** Your opinion from not having read the book???**
Good one.

Try again. This time maybe a book you’ve actually read.
** In the book, “A Practical Guide to Indulgences” by Rev. Daniel Murray (1898). I collect old prayer books and devotionals by the way.
Page 19
“The eternal punishment which mortal sin deserves is undoubtedly remitted when the sin is forgiven, but God requires the repentant sinner to make some satisfaction for the outrage that has been committed against the order of Divine Providence and for the scandal and encouragement in evil habits given to others by sin. Moreover, the temporal punishment by which this satisfaction is made serves to deter the penitent from relapsing into sinful ways, by reminding him that sin is always brings suffering in its train.”

These same thoughts on Purgatory being punishment is mirrored in “the Book of Indulgences” (1876) by Rev. M. Comerford. Compiled by Sacred Congregation of Indulgences of the Vatican. **

**Do you wish me to keep pulling more sources? I have a doubt that no matter if Benedict XVI told you himself you would not believe him on the matter either. **

God Bless

 

[Padrej]

Something from Pope Paul VI on Purgatory. It comes from his official 1967 Statement “The Doctrine of Indulgences”

1. It is a divinely revealed truth that sins bring punishments inflicted by God’s sanctity and justice. These must be expiated either on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and calamities of this life and above all through death, or else in the life beyond through fire and torments or “purifying” punishments.

That punishment or the vestiges of sin may remain to be expiated or cleansed and that they in fact frequently do even after the remission of guilt is clearly demonstrated by the doctrine on purgatory. In purgatory, in fact, the souls of those "who died in the charity of God and truly repentant, but before satisfying with worthy fruits of penance for sins committed and for omissions are cleansed after death with purgatorial punishments.

From the Vatican website on Purgatory and about how it is punishment.

vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-vi_apc_19670101_indulgentiarum-doctrina_en.html

 

[Javl]

Javl;5880055:

For a correct understanding of Purgatory as taught by the CC, please read 1032-1034 in
the Catholic Catechism. Purgatory is the punishment due to the consequences of sin, even though the sin has been absolved. God’s justice does demand punishment.

Induldgences given by the CC, under the authority of Jesus, help to reduce the term of punishment in Purgatory. Indulgences are obtained only in a state of grace by acts of faith, charity, and prayer. They may be applied to anyone in Purgatory.

PAX DOMINI

I don’t know what Catechism you are talking about but I’ve posted this before. All you have to do is read it. Now, read it and I’m open to you showing me where it states that Purgatory is temporal punishment:

Here you go:

**III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY **

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
[1031](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1031.htm’) The Church gives the name *Purgatory *to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

[1032](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1032.htm’) This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:
Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611

AND it states in plain text that this is not to be confused with the punishment of the damned.

You are setting yourself up for a moment of doubt when a non-catholic shows you from Scripture how God does not punish us with the fires of hell twice. You are teaching something that is outside the Catechism and not correct.

But as I said, I’ll leave you to your own interpretation of the Catechism. I just wish someone would give an argument and not merely keep parroting what they’ve said before.

So far, no one has shown me from the Catechism (which was the medium of faith doctrine first quoted to me) that Purgatory is punishment or the same as temporal punishment.

I am not talking about the damned. That is another subject. I am talking about those who are repentant and have been absolved of their sins, but still have to pay a penalty for them, as God’s Justice demands.

Have you also read the rest of it in the Catechism Of The Catholic Church? This is the
official Catechism of the Catholic Church which explains and informs all of the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Now if there is no punishment in Purgatory as you say then what is the use of Indulgences
that are given by the CC for the remission of some or all of the temporal punishment due to the consequences of sin? You are teaching something other than that of the
Magisterium.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

Give it up. HappyCatholic, ironically enough, has taken the very view I accuse many Protestants of having: God did it all, so there’s no punishment for us. It’s a “feel-good” Catholicism for a more…“civilized” age.

 

[Padrej]

I forgot, and this may help.

“Temporal” does not mean “temporary”. It means outside of time. Hence the opposite of “eternal” punishment. So, temporal punishment actually means “earthly consequences”. These are consequences inflicted on earth. We cannot take earthly consequences to Heaven with us.

The adverb form of temporal is temporally, not temporarily.

So, when Catholic Encyclopedia says this:

Purgatory (Lat., “purgare”, to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God’s grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.

It means a place or more properly a condition of earthly consequences. In other words it’s merely saying we’ve got baggage. It is not referring to the purification but rather the reason for it.

God Bless.

This was your comment on the Catholic Encyclopedia in a previous post. 336
“I’ve already stated that I don’t get my faith doctrine from “Catholic Encyclopedia”. It is a helpful source of theology, but not necessarily correct.
Somewhat like Wikipedia, only probably slightly more dependable.”

If you do not get your faith doctrine from the Catholic Encyclopedia then why do you quote it so much?

At to Temporal Punishments: According to the Apostolic Constitution on Indulgences
His Holiness Pope Paul VI Promulgated on January 1, 1967 it states:
“It is therefore necessary for the full remission and–as it is called–reparation of sins not only that friendship with God be reestablished by a sincere conversion of the mind and amends made for the offense against His wisdom and goodness, but also that all the personal as well as social values and those of the universal order itself, which have been diminished or destroyed by sin, be fully reintegrated whether through voluntary reparation which will involve punishment or through acceptance of the punishments established by the just and most holy wisdom of God, from which there will shine forth throughout the world the sanctity and the splendor of His glory. The very existence and the gravity of the punishment enable us to understand the foolishness and malice of sin and its harmful consequences.

That punishment or the vestiges of sin may remain to be expiated or cleansed and that they in fact frequently do even after the remission of guilt is clearly demonstrated by the doctrine on purgatory. In purgatory, in fact, the souls of those “who died in the charity of God and truly repentant, but before satisfying with worthy fruits of penance for sins committed and for omissions” are cleansed after death with purgatorial punishments. This is also clearly evidenced in the liturgical prayers with which the Christian community admitted to Holy Communion has addressed God since most ancient times: “that we, who are justly subjected to afflictions because of our sins, may be mercifully set free from them for the glory of thy name.”

For all men who walk this earth daily commit at least venial sins; thus all need the mercy of God to be set free from the penal consequences of sin.”

I hope this from the Vatican’s web site link posted earlier helps the readers of this thread and you too to understand that Temporal punishment can remain after we die and needs to be “worked out” so to speak in Purgatory. So you are correct in that you cannot take the earthly consequences to Heaven.

 

[happilycatholic]

This was your comment on the Catholic Encyclopedia in a previous post. 336
“I’ve already stated that I don’t get my faith doctrine from “Catholic Encyclopedia”. It is a helpful source of theology, but not necessarily correct.
Somewhat like Wikipedia, only probably slightly more dependable.”

If you do not get your faith doctrine from the Catholic Encyclopedia then why do you quote it so much?

At to Temporal Punishments: According to the Apostolic Constitution on Indulgences
His Holiness Pope Paul VI Promulgated on January 1, 1967 it states:
“It is therefore necessary for the full remission and–as it is called–reparation of sins not only that friendship with God be reestablished by a sincere conversion of the mind and amends made for the offense against His wisdom and goodness, but also that all the personal as well as social values and those of the universal order itself, which have been diminished or destroyed by sin, be fully reintegrated whether through voluntary reparation which will involve punishment or through acceptance of the punishments established by the just and most holy wisdom of God, from which there will shine forth throughout the world the sanctity and the splendor of His glory. The very existence and the gravity of the punishment enable us to understand the foolishness and malice of sin and its harmful consequences.

That punishment or the vestiges of sin may remain to be expiated or cleansed and that they in fact frequently do even after the remission of guilt is clearly demonstrated by the doctrine on purgatory. In purgatory, in fact, the souls of those “who died in the charity of God and truly repentant, but before satisfying with worthy fruits of penance for sins committed and for omissions” are cleansed after death with purgatorial punishments. This is also clearly evidenced in the liturgical prayers with which the Christian community admitted to Holy Communion has addressed God since most ancient times: “that we, who are justly subjected to afflictions because of our sins, may be mercifully set free from them for the glory of thy name.”

For all men who walk this earth daily commit at least venial sins; thus all need the mercy of God to be set free from the penal consequences of sin.”

I hope this from the Vatican’s web site link posted earlier helps the readers of this thread and you too to understand that Temporal punishment can remain after we die and needs to be “worked out” so to speak in Purgatory. So you are correct in that you cannot take the earthly consequences to Heaven.

Thank you Padrej:

I appreciate the words of Pope Paul VI. Please realize that this promulgation is before Vatican II. During Vatican II some things were reinterpreted and Purgatory was one of them. The Church community, much like those here, were misunderstanding Purgatory to be a form of pre-hell. Like we are going there to be tortured for the things we’ve done. You must realize that these are not serious sins to begine with. Two, these are sins that we’ve already asked for confession and have not received proper absolution. Three, this is a form of God’s mercy, not vengence. For these reasons, the Church has changed it’s theology on Purgatory.

I’m sure you can go back and find all the fire and brimstone you need to back up your claims of punishment. But the simple fact is that temporal punishment begins here and therefor cannot be synonymous with Purgatory. It’s not rocket science.

Also, you probably should know that sometimes catholic encyclopedia contains information from other sources, such as the catechism. I’ve yet to quote catholic encyclopedia except to respond to a quote from you.

Look, let’s let this go. I don’t think any one of us are in danger whether we believe Purgatory to be a purifying act of mercy by God or punishment for sins committed or both.

It just simply doesn’t matter. I respect your opinions and the opinions of others on this thread. I do apologize for claiming you to be ‘wrong’. I shouldn’t have done that. It was said out of frustration.

Alot of things the Church taught years ago, particularly pre-Vatican II, still linger and cloud the minds of those who adhere to them. I personally believe a lot of great things came out of Vatican II and some not so good things.

But I, like a sheep, follow the Church. I don’t try to form my own opinions because I just honestly don’t have the knowledge to do so. I count on the knowledge and 2000 years of experience the Church has behind it.

If the Church says Purgatory is better defined as purification, then purification it is.

God Bless and Keep You,

~Tonya

 

[happilycatholic]

Give it up. HappyCatholic, ironically enough, has taken the very view I accuse many Protestants of having: God did it all, so there’s no punishment for us. It’s a “feel-good” Catholicism for a more…“civilized” age.

This is a rediculous, uninformed blanket statement that shows that you do not read what I post.

 

[happilycatholic]

I am not talking about the damned. That is another subject. I am talking about those who are repentant and have been absolved of their sins, but still have to pay a penalty for them, as God’s Justice demands.

Have you also read the rest of it in the Catechism Of The Catholic Church? This is the
official Catechism of the Catholic Church which explains and informs all of the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Now if there is no punishment in Purgatory as you say then what is the use of Indulgences
that are given by the CC for the remission of some or all of the temporal punishment due to the consequences of sin? You are teaching something other than that of the
Magisterium.

Dear Javl:

Please show me anything in the Catechism that states that purgatory is punishment. I keep saying this and no one responds with anything from the catechism. It’s always some pre-Vatican statement by a pope or a saint from 600 years ago. I realize there used to be a different theology on this matter. I’m not a fool.

Please put down your cookie-cutter definition of ‘punishment’ for one moment. Every time we sin, at that very instant we experience temporal punishment attached to that sin. Did you know that God disciplines us while we are here on earth? Look into the story of King David’s son. That is an example of temporal punishment.

Temporal punishment is called ‘temporal’ not because it is temporary, but because it is inflicted in this world and carried into the next. Temporal means, “of this world”.

Next, Purgatory is purification or in other words, atonement. It has been said on here that I ‘believe’ (I love it when people tell me what I believe) that I am part of some ‘feel-good’ society that thinks we can somehow get out of all punishment.

But those are folks who don’t understand what ‘punishment’ is in the ecclesiastical sense. It’s not getting a spanking from God. The punishment comes with the sin. God will send people to hell, but in hell they will suffer their own deeds, not God’s.

You must understand the biblical concept of sin and punishement. God does not inflict punishment on people, people do this themselves when they make bad choices. But I digress.

Purgatory is atonement. Christ’s crucifixion was atonement. I believe that Purgatory will be much like that. I do not beleive purification in Purgatory will be pain-less. On the contrary, I believe it will be painful to the extent of seriousness of the sins you committed. Christ’s crucifixion was vicious because it was needed for us to understand atonement. We could not understand the spiritual punishment Christ was going through which was to be separated from God for a ‘moment’. But we do understand the physical punishment He went through. Purgatory however is not physical, it is spiritual.

But it’s not punishment. Do you think God punished His Son? Or do you believe that His Son took on our sins voluntarily and needed to be cleansed of them before entering the presence of God again? Christ took on the potential atonement for all of our sins and He suffered greatly much like we will in Purgatory.

It is human to look at suffering and sacrifice as punishment. People do that all the time. “Why am I being punished with this cancer”? What did I do God? But it has a deeper meaning and a deeper reason, purification so that we can be with God. Sometimes, that is temporal punishment. And yes, these things follow us after death. That’s why we need Purgatory. Thank God we have a way to shed those earthly sufferings and go to God in perfection.

Call it what you wish.

God Bless.

 

[Javl]

Dear Javl:

Please show me anything in the Catechism that states that purgatory is punishment. I keep saying this and no one responds with anything from the catechism. It’s always some pre-Vatican statement by a pope or a saint from 600 years ago. I realize there used to be a different theology on this matter. I’m not a fool.

Please put down your cookie-cutter definition of ‘punishment’ for one moment. Every time we sin, at that very instant we experience temporal punishment attached to that sin. Did you know that God disciplines us while we are here on earth? Look into the story of King David’s son. That is an example of temporal punishment.

Temporal punishment is called ‘temporal’ not because it is temporary, but because it is inflicted in this world and carried into the next. Temporal means, “of this world”.

Next, Purgatory is purification or in other words, atonement. It has been said on here that I ‘believe’ (I love it when people tell me what I believe) that I am part of some ‘feel-good’ society that thinks we can somehow get out of all punishment.

But those are folks who don’t understand what ‘punishment’ is in the ecclesiastical sense. It’s not getting a spanking from God. The punishment comes with the sin. God will send people to hell, but in hell they will suffer their own deeds, not God’s.

You must understand the biblical concept of sin and punishement. God does not inflict punishment on people, people do this themselves when they make bad choices. But I digress.

Purgatory is atonement. Christ’s crucifixion was atonement. I believe that Purgatory will be much like that. I do not beleive purification in Purgatory will be pain-less. On the contrary, I believe it will be painful to the extent of seriousness of the sins you committed. Christ’s crucifixion was vicious because it was needed for us to understand atonement. We could not understand the spiritual punishment Christ was going through which was to be separated from God for a ‘moment’. But we do understand the physical punishment He went through. Purgatory however is not physical, it is spiritual.

But it’s not punishment. Do you think God punished His Son? Or do you believe that His Son took on our sins voluntarily and needed to be cleansed of them before entering the presence of God again? Christ took on the potential atonement for all of our sins and He suffered greatly much like we will in Purgatory.

It is human to look at suffering and sacrifice as punishment. People do that all the time. “Why am I being punished with this cancer”? What did I do God? But it has a deeper meaning and a deeper reason, purification so that we can be with God. Sometimes, that is temporal punishment. And yes, these things follow us after death. That’s why we need Purgatory. Thank God we have a way to shed those earthly sufferings and go to God in perfection.

Call it what you wish.

God Bless.

Please keep in mind that any prounouncement of a Pope, whether or not from 600 years ago on the subject of purgatory is the same as the teaching of the Magisteriun and is officially valid in explanation or in definition. It is not to be ignored.

Please read in the CC Catechism #1472 which states that temporal punishment which
is due for the consequence of sin is also punishable in Purgatory. This punishment can
occur in this world through our inordinate suffering for the Church, but occurs mostly in
Purgatory. This punishment in NOT inflicted by God nor caused by Him. It is we who
bring it on ourselves by means of sin. It is also different from that of Hell.

Also please obtain a copy of “Purgatory” by Fr. F.X.Schouppe, S.J. for a further belief in, and understanding of, Purgatory.

Believe me when I say that I am not trying to belittle you, deride you, or anything like that.
I am just trying to correct your misunderstanding ( which many Catholics have ) of the
definition of Purgatory and to keep it in line with the teachings of the Magisterium.
God Bless.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[happilycatholic]

Thank you Javl for the references you gave me. If I may, I will try to respectfully address them. After that I’d like to just let this go because I feel like I’m making enemies out of those that would otherwise be my friends.

Feel free to respond as you wish and I will simply accept any and all of your responses without further argument.

Here’s the canon you reference:

**1472 **To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.

Please don’t misunderstand me, I do realize that there is punishment that comes along with sin and in spite of what nathan wager has said, I believe there is punishment from sin for which atonement does not occur here on earth. For this reason, I believe that we must be rid of the punishment (consequence) and God’s will must be justified (His will has been and always will be to have us with Him in Heaven).

Purgatory serves that purpose. Because it is God’s will to have us with Him in Heaven, and because we are imperfect, we must be prepared to go to the Father. Do you believe God’s justice actually involves punishment of the righteous?

Do you believe you can ‘work’ your way out of punishment? Well, that’s what you and others here are purposing and that’s why I keep saying if you continue this belief some non-catholic someday will come along and hand you doubt on a silver platter because you minsunderstand the concept of Purgatory. NO ONE can ‘work’ themselves out of Purgatory. Indulgences, prayer for the dead, and charity are ways to atone for sin not buy your way or work your way out of punishment.

Because Purgatory is not a punishement, but rather a cleansing of punishment, a person can do the cleansing here on earth or loved ones can do it for them after death. It is atonement rather than punishment. (prayer/indulgences) If it were true that you could pray away someone’s punishment (the concept of Purgatory according to you and others) then we could in a sense “bargain” with God. “God, I have done a terrible thing. I will go to the Mission and serve soup on Tuesdays for the rest of my life”. You will be atoning not because you are serving soup, but because others benefitted from it and it should involve some suffering and sacrifice in order to appropriate atonement. Give up a days pay each week or sacrifice something you love to do the charity. It may feel like punishment when you receive your paycheck, but it will cleanse your soul. See?

No. We can’t do enough good works to keep ouselves out of Purgatory. But we can atone for our sins either here or in Purgatory. Atonement is different from punishment (the catechsim points this out when it states that Purgatory is different from the punishment of the damned). Atonement involves compensation, reconciliation, suffering, sacrifice. Sound familiar? It should. These are not punishments but they are ways of “making things right”.

And in this way, our purification involves doing God’s will as well as pain and suffering for our iniquities. Punishment involves only useless suffering for the sake of avenging a purpose. It does no good for the world or His people. It serves no purpose in His will, which is for all mankind to be in Heaven. That doesn’t sound like our God.

I understand what you are saying about the opinions of popes and ECF’s. I do respect them and have my favorites. But we are not bound by their words unless their words are in the catechism or they are spoken ex cathedra and in that case there would be a revision of the catechism. The culimination of our Deposit of Faith is found in the Catechism. It is a compilation of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

That is another mistake that not a few catholics make today and one that Protestants feed upon when making their case against the Church. They think we are slaves to the ECF’s and popes of the past, present, and future. We are not. We are bound by Church precepts and doctrine/dogma, not necessarily something said by a pope or a saint. There are many saints that said many things that I do not agree with and some that even the Church has taken a stand against.

I look to my Church for my faith doctrine, but not everything that comes out of the mouth of the pope is canon. And not everything every priest writes is in line with Church teaching (sadly).

Atonement holds the possibility of love and all its consequences. Punishment holds nothing. That’s why God lets hell exist. That’s where punishment comes in. When there’s no hope left for your soul for atonement, then you will feel the eternal punishment of hell.

God Bless you too Javl.

 

[Javl]

Thank you Javl for the references you gave me. If I may, I will try to respectfully address them. After that I’d like to just let this go because I feel like I’m making enemies out of those that would otherwise be my friends.

Feel free to respond as you wish and I will simply accept any and all of your responses without further argument.

Here’s the canon you reference:

**1472 **To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.

Please don’t misunderstand me, I do realize that there is punishment that comes along with sin and in spite of what nathan wager has said, I believe there is punishment from sin for which atonement does not occur here on earth. For this reason, I believe that we must be rid of the punishment (consequence) and God’s will must be justified (His will has been and always will be to have us with Him in Heaven).

Purgatory serves that purpose. Because it is God’s will to have us with Him in Heaven, and because we are imperfect, we must be prepared to go to the Father. Do you believe God’s justice actually involves punishment of the righteous?

Do you believe you can ‘work’ your way out of punishment? Well, that’s what you and others here are purposing and that’s why I keep saying if you continue this belief some non-catholic someday will come along and hand you doubt on a silver platter because you minsunderstand the concept of Purgatory. NO ONE can ‘work’ themselves out of Purgatory. Indulgences, prayer for the dead, and charity are ways to atone for sin not buy your way or work your way out of punishment.

Because Purgatory is not a punishement, but rather a cleansing of punishment, a person can do the cleansing here on earth or loved ones can do it for them after death. It is atonement rather than punishment. (prayer/indulgences) If it were true that you could pray away someone’s punishment (the concept of Purgatory according to you and others) then we could in a sense “bargain” with God. “God, I have done a terrible thing. I will go to the Mission and serve soup on Tuesdays for the rest of my life”. You will be atoning not because you are serving soup, but because others benefitted from it and it should involve some suffering and sacrifice in order to appropriate atonement. Give up a days pay each week or sacrifice something you love to do the charity. It may feel like punishment when you receive your paycheck, but it will cleanse your soul. See?

No. We can’t do enough good works to keep ouselves out of Purgatory. But we can atone for our sins either here or in Purgatory. Atonement is different from punishment (the catechsim points this out when it states that Purgatory is different from the punishment of the damned). Atonement involves compensation, reconciliation, suffering, sacrifice. Sound familiar? It should. These are not punishments but they are ways of “making things right”.

And in this way, our purification involves doing God’s will as well as pain and suffering for our iniquities. Punishment involves only useless suffering for the sake of avenging a purpose. It does no good for the world or His people. It serves no purpose in His will, which is for all mankind to be in Heaven. That doesn’t sound like our God.

I understand what you are saying about the opinions of popes and ECF’s. I do respect them and have my favorites. But we are not bound by their words unless their words are in the catechism or they are spoken ex cathedra and in that case there would be a revision of the catechism. The culimination of our Deposit of Faith is found in the Catechism. It is a compilation of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

That is another mistake that not a few catholics make today and one that Protestants feed upon when making their case against the Church. They think we are slaves to the ECF’s and popes of the past, present, and future. We are not. We are bound by Church precepts and doctrine/dogma, not necessarily something said by a pope or a saint. There are many saints that said many things that I do not agree with and some that even the Church has taken a stand against.

I look to my Church for my faith doctrine, but not everything that comes out of the mouth of the pope is canon. And not everything every priest writes is in line with Church teaching (sadly).

Atonement holds the possibility of love and all its consequences. Punishment holds nothing. That’s why God lets hell exist. That’s where punishment comes in. When there’s no hope left for your soul for atonement, then you will feel the eternal punishment of hell.

God Bless you too Javl.

Ok happilycatholic, I will leave you to your understanding. I will not argue the point, for arguements push a person further away. Meanwhile I suggest you to please read the
book “Purgatory” for a futher understanding. God Bless.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Padrej]

Ok so if I am correct in my assumption according to Tonya, Vatican II thinking is that Purgatory is not punishment but only cleansing.
I would like to submit the following article for consideration:
reachingcatholics.org/purgatory.html

In this article the wording of Vatican II on the matter only seemly changed. Here are the pertinent paragraphs:
“Many modern Catholics think of purgatory as a relic from the Dark Ages, which they would just as soon forget. Some Catholics even believe that purgatory is no longer a Roman Catholic doctrine.
Despite popular opinion, however, purgatory is still an official dogma of the Roman Catholic Church and an essential part of the Roman Catholic plan of salvation. The Church affirmed the existence of purgatory at each of the last three ecumenical councils: Trent, Vatican I, and Vatican II. The latter council described purgatory as a place where the souls of the dead make expiation “in the next life through fire and torments or purifying punishments.” **According to Vatican II, “in purgatory the souls of those who died in the charity of God and truly repentant, but who had not made satisfaction with adequate penance for their sins and omissions are cleansed after death with punishments designed to purge away their debt.” **The Catechism of the Catholic Church describes purgatory as place of “cleansing fire.”[1031]
Belief in the existence of purgatory is also expressed at every Mass. During the Liturgy of the Eucharist, prayers are offered for the dead. Usually the Mass itself is also offered for someone suffering in purgatory. The person’s name is announced or published in the Sunday bulletin. Each year, in fact, on the anniversary of the death of the last pope, the present pope offers Mass for the souls of his two predecessors who are, presumably, still suffering in purgatory.”
I do not dispute you that it is a place of cleansing and purification but in this article which IS referenced Vatican II changed nothing on Purgatory being a punishment. I think you may also be confusing the meaning (If I may be so bold) of “temporal punishment” to mean “temporary punishment.” ( I arive at this from one of your earlier posts)

Let me explain myself on this one. One of the things that Protestants have a problem with when it comes to Mary is the word “Co-redemtrix” we look at the first part and think of the prefix “co” as having the meaning working with or part of or along with when Jesus paid the sin debt on Calvary, not Mary. The problem arises when the Catholic Church uses “co” from the Latin “cum” meaning in agreement with because she said, “behold the handmaid of the Lord” and submitted to God for the process of the redemption of the world. THAT we have no problem with at all. So when the Catechism is speaking of “temporal” it is speaking of things that last not temporary in things that only are around a short time. When the catechism was written and these words were introduced it was understood their meaning but sadly the language changes over time.
Take for example in the Book of Acts in the 1611 King James Version there is a verse which says, “we fetched a compass and went to Troas.” The problem is in St. Paul’s time there was no magnetic compass to fetch so in 1611 this verse meant “we turned around and went back to Troas” which is what comes through in modern translations. You see we think in language. We should not think of the “punishment” of Purgatory as being beaten up but rather paying restitution so that we are right with God. As was mentioned in an early post, “I can forgive my child, but she still has to endure the grounding for the crime she did so that she can be in right relationship with me.”
Being no unclean thing can enter Heaven there are some punishments that would still be going on that have not been worked out when we die. This is where Purgatory cleanses/burns/punishes them off so that you will be spotless before God.

 

[Padrej]

According to Vatican II documents:
“This most sacred Synod accepts with great devotion the venerable faith of our ancestors regarding this vital fellowship with our brethren who are in heavenly glory, or who are still being purified after death.” ‘Those still being purified after death’ obviously refers to those in Purgatory.]
In essence the Synod or Council of Vatican II reaffirmed the traditional doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church, especially in regard to Purgatory. In fact, it stated that “the Vatican II Council proposes again the Decrees of the Second Council of Nicaea, the Council of Florence and the Council of Trent, and at the same time as part of its own pastoral solicitude this Synod urges all concerned to work hard to prevent or correct any abuses, excesses or defect which may have crept in here and there, and to restore all things to more ample praise of Christ and God.”
Very simply, the Vatican Council Documents merely reaffirm the doctrines affirmed in the Council of Nicaea, the Council of Florence and the Council of Trent. These documents which include the doctrine of Purgatory are to be maintained, Vatican II directed, “exactly as they were written in their respective documents of these councils” (Chap. 7, para. 51).

 

[Padrej]

This site may prove an interesting read on the changing thoughts and beliefs on Purgatory. Interestingly Benedict XVI states “the Church has never changed a dogma of faith once it has been declared.” But yet this site speaks to the many differing ways Purgatory is viewed.

angelfire.com/ky/dodone/Purgatory.html

 

[Randy_Carson]

This site may prove an interesting read on the changing thoughts and beliefs on Purgatory. Interestingly Benedict XVI states “the Church has never changed a dogma of faith once it has been declared.” But yet this site speaks to the many differing ways Purgatory is viewed.

angelfire.com/ky/dodone/Purgatory.html

I’ll take a look…thanks.

In the meantime, I thought you might be interested in this:

"The temporal effects of sin are best illustrated in Genesis 3:14-20, where God pronounces a series of maledictions against Adam and Eve, the serpent, and even the physical creation itself, all as a result of Adam and Eve’s disobedience: the original sin. The eternal penalty of their sin—hell—was something Christ atoned for on the cross, and Adam and Eve’s salvation and avoidance of that penalty was due to their faith in God’s promises and their subsequent obedience to His laws, but the temporal effects of sin remained. Enmity with the rest of nature, having to work to eat, labor pains for women, sickness, and eventually death, were all part of the punishments God permitted to fall upon Adam and Eve and all of us, their descendants. So when you, a born-again Christian, receive Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, you correctly believe that He will forgive you of your sins and remit the eternal punishment they deserve. But you still are going to have to get up and go to work tomorrow, right? Your wife will still experience pain in childbirth; you may even someday be afflicted with cancer, or some other life-threatening disease. You might have a heart attack. And in the end you, like me and everybody else, will eventually suffer the greatest of the temporal punishments outlined in Genesis 3: You are going to die someday. Christ’s atoning sacrifice paid for your sins, but it didn’t wipe out the temporal effects, including the punishments I just mentioned of your sins.

"There are other examples of the principle of temporal punishments due to sin that God does not even eliminate even when we repent and are forgiven of our sins.

"For example, in 2 Samuel 12:14-14, we see the tragic case of King David. He had sinned by committing adultery and murder, and though the Lord forgave him when he repented, there were repercussions that followed which god did not alleviate. A form of restitution was still owed:
2 Samuel 12:13-14
13 David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” And Nathan said to David, “The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die. 14 Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the LORD, the child that is born to you shall die.”
“Now, how does all this fit into the doctrine of purgatory? Purgatory is the place or state (however you’d like to think of it) in which the fire of God’s love purifies us from the temporal effects due to sin, which include any temporal punishments due to our sins.”

From Answer Me This!
By Patrick Madrid

 

[happilycatholic]

For all who are interested, see the link below for a dialog which addresses the question raised by non-catholics when the issue of “punishment” comes up in conversation regarding Purgatory:

paulabbe.net/?p=428

This is just something I ran across on the net, but it is from a Lutheran to Catholic convert’s POV on the subject discussion here.

I think it brings to light the problems with the belief that Purgatory is a form of “punishment” using the vernacular of today and using secular definitions when given an ecclesiastical discussion of sin and its consequences.

I think a person could look at it many different ways, but God only meant it to be taken His way, the Divine Way. That is what we must discern.

God Bless

~Tonya

 

[Padrej]

For all who are interested, see the link below for a dialog which addresses the question raised by non-catholics when the issue of “punishment” comes up in conversation regarding Purgatory:

paulabbe.net/?p=428

This is just something I ran across on the net, but it is from a Lutheran to Catholic convert’s POV on the subject discussion here.

I think it brings to light the problems with the belief that Purgatory is a form of “punishment” using the vernacular of today and using secular definitions when given an ecclesiastical discussion of sin and its consequences.

I think a person could look at it many different ways, but God only meant it to be taken His way, the Divine Way. That is what we must discern.

God Bless

~Tonya

Tonya
Thank you for posting this. It does a great deal to explain Purgatory from a converting person’s perspective. However it does not explain, but raises the question on the “Binding and Loosing” area of an old subject. I was surfing the web and read (I wish that I had saved the link because I know you guys are going to blast me on this) that the Pope had through the binding and loosing released Galileo from Purgatory (as if he knew he was still there.) Also John Paul II on the Jubilee year declared special indulgences if you did certain things that would alleviate, for lack of better words, more time than usual, from Purgatory. This also brings to mind that the church historically prior to the reformation used to issue indulgences that a person would be totally free. I am reminded of a lapsed Catholic in on parish that I served that received an indulgence for teaching the catechism that said that she would spend NO TIME in Purgatory.
The question then becomes one of simply, under the binding and loosing, why not just make this whole process easier and say your sins are forgiven and I am going to grant you a minimal amount of time. Time in God’s eyes is not time in ours to begin with, so we may look at time as years and to God it is but a second. Are we Humans, Not putting restrictions on God’s mercy by saying “this sin give you this amount of time, but doing this act will give you this amount of time off” God has said “I will be merciful to whom I will have mercy and have compassion on whom I will have compassion.” Who are we to say, “God has not totally forgiven and been totally merciful” when the power to do so has been given to the church.

 

[happilycatholic]

Tonya
Thank you for posting this. It does a great deal to explain Purgatory from a converting person’s perspective. However it does not explain, but raises the question on the “Binding and Loosing” area of an old subject. I was surfing the web and read (I wish that I had saved the link because I know you guys are going to blast me on this) that the Pope had through the binding and loosing released Galileo from Purgatory (as if he knew he was still there.) Also John Paul II on the Jubilee year declared special indulgences if you did certain things that would alleviate, for lack of better words, more time than usual, from Purgatory. This also brings to mind that the church historically prior to the reformation used to issue indulgences that a person would be totally free. I am reminded of a lapsed Catholic in on parish that I served that received an indulgence for teaching the catechism that said that she would spend NO TIME in Purgatory.
The question then becomes one of simply, under the binding and loosing, why not just make this whole process easier and say your sins are forgiven and I am going to grant you a minimal amount of time. Time in God’s eyes is not time in ours to begin with, so we may look at time as years and to God it is but a second. Are we Humans, Not putting restrictions on God’s mercy by saying “this sin give you this amount of time, but doing this act will give you this amount of time off” God has said “I will be merciful to whom I will have mercy and have compassion on whom I will have compassion.” Who are we to say, “God has not totally forgiven and been totally merciful” when the power to do so has been given to the church.

Hi padrej:

I’m glad my hardheadedness didn’t disuade you.

Youre concerns are absolutely valid and these are the very issues that are ‘unanswerable’ if we believe as Christians that our sins are truely forgiven. Remember, forgiveness doesn’t leave residual matters. Forgiveness is absolute. So how does Purgatory fit into the picture if we are punished for sins already forgiven? (notwithstanding those venial sins for which we forgot to ask forgiveness, that I understand).

This is where we as catholics get into sticky situations with non-catholics, including those wishing to be catholic. I have a totally different perspective than one who is normally a ‘convert’. I became cathlolic but never really aligned myself with any other religion to begin with (or so I thought). The things I’ve believed all my life were actually very catholic to begin with.

With that said, this is why I really think from the bottom of my heart, that catholicism holds the “full Truth”. My mom and dad are very devout Baptists and love the Lord with all their hearts, but they too believe that Purgatory is a place where you get punished for sins that have been forgiven. This, in my opinion, is very far from the full Truth. The Divine Truth as God reveals it to us is a mystery because we do not have the capability to fully comprehend it.

What we see as punishment is actually purification. Look at it this way, if you asked Christ today if He thinks of His crucifixion as punishment, what do you think He would say?

Atonement is totally different from punishment. Atonement suggests a new beginning and a renewal of self. Punishment is just punishment. I guess one could say that we atone for our sins through punishment and get around it that way. I just don’t.

I see Purgatory as the last step in sanctification. Do any of the other steps involve punishment? No. Do they involve painful sacrifices and suffering at times? Yes, or at least they should. Our worship of God should always involve pain and suffering. Some would see this as punishment but those who truly ‘know’ God do not.

This is how a convert like me can believe that God does indeed forgive us for our sins, but because we live in an earthly, human world we must wash away the stains of that world to be truly ‘clean’ before God. I see this as a blessing and I look forward to it. Could one say that I’m sugar-coating Purgatory? Only if you percieve that answer Christ would give you as sugar-coating His sacrifice and suffering on the Cross.

He did it for you and I. We’ll do it for Him in the end. Do you think that’s punishment?

God Bless you padrej!

~Tonya