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Des
Guest
FrJohn, could you please help us to understand how both Vatican I and Vatican II line up with the historical teaching of Purgatory. And where exactly happyCatholic went wrong.
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Javl
Guest
Once again, putting my two cents in. Anyone who is, or claims to be, Catholic owes
allegiance and should be faithful to the Magisterium. Sad to say, Happily Catholic and
others ignore the Magisterium and go their own way putting their souls in danger. The way
padrej, I, and others have presented the explanation of Purgatory is exactly what the Magisterium teaches. Too many Catholics are beginning to use “sola scriptura” to back
up their interpretations of the Catholic Catechism and the Bible without any formal training.
I admit to not having any formal training, but I am faithful to the Magisterium and teach
only what it teaches.
PAX DOMINI :signofcross
Shalom Aleichem
allegiance and should be faithful to the Magisterium. Sad to say, Happily Catholic and
others ignore the Magisterium and go their own way putting their souls in danger. The way
padrej, I, and others have presented the explanation of Purgatory is exactly what the Magisterium teaches. Too many Catholics are beginning to use “sola scriptura” to back
up their interpretations of the Catholic Catechism and the Bible without any formal training.
I admit to not having any formal training, but I am faithful to the Magisterium and teach
only what it teaches.
PAX DOMINI :signofcross
Shalom Aleichem
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FrJohnB
Guest
I hope I can try to explain this simply so all can understand.
It is easiest to understand Purgatory as part of the sacrament of penance. The priest may absolve you of the sin but you still have the penalty portion to work out. As was so eloquently put in an earlier post a father can forgive a child but they still must endure the grounding. The Catechism states:
“1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.”
To put it bluntly and simply we either work out our “consequence” either here on earth or after death in Purgatory. Second Maccabees 12: 43-26 tells us to pray for the dead to ask for their forgiveness, this is why we pray for the departed for relief of their punishments. As the Catechism states “sin has a double consequence” and we should not look at “temporal punishment” mentioned here as some form of vengeance carried out by God because it cannot be so; this temporal punishment is what is left of the sins after the absolution that we still have to work off through the purification process of Purgatory. Earlier church writings constantly called these “punishment” and today we think of this word with a bad connotation but we need not look at it this way. Because no unclean thing can enter God’s presence the fire of Purgatory must consume it. How much time we spend there is anybody’s guess; time to us is not the same to God. As the Holy Father says as the closer we get to His love “His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation “as through fire”. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God” (from the Encyclical on Christian Hope). Today the church speaks more of a cleansing and blessed pain then they do of punishment, which can lead many to think of Purgatory as not being a place of punishment which it technically is (kind of like in the illustration of the parent and the child with the child being grounded for a period). However, Vatican 2 has in no way changed the view on Purgatory but rather re-affirmed the stance of Vatican 1 and the earlier councils. Many believe, falsely, that Vatican 2 changed this because the liturgy changed in major ways from the old Tridentine Mass that many of us old timers loved so much, altars had to be moved so the priest had to face the congregation, and so on. But the Catholic Church’s stance on Purgatory has not in any way changed. The way the old guys on this thread learned it is still the way it should be taught today.
BTW love your quotes!
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FrJohnB
Guest
Matthew 7:3-5
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Padrej
Guest
OUCH!
I guess that is what separates Catholic Priests from Protestant Ministers I would have went for Psalm 105: 15 “touch not the Lord’s anointed and do the prophets and do the prophets no harm,” that usually scares that bejesus out of Protestants.
I like your post and explanation of Purgatory. I intend to use that to explain to my Protestant friends. It explains the point simply and directly.
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Des
Guest
Yes, I believe the word ‘Punishment’ can also very easily be misunderstood so it’s always very profitable to know how it’s used in the context of Purgatory.
Thank you.
My apologies. I was meaning the major points you disagreed with when I said that FrJohnB.
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happilycatholic
Guest
I cannot believe this. It is the most utterly rediculous outburst of insult I have EVER been the subject of, especially by someone who is supposed to be clergy. You should be ashamed.
I NEVER said I wouldn’t pray for anyone! You are appalling! I actually said I would put padrej ON MY PRAYER LIST. You obviously have not read this thread accurately.
I am the ONLY one who IS following what the catechism teaches and not going beyond that to interject beliefs that are long past and not taught anymore by the Church in the catechism!
I hope you will take the time to read this entire thread.
As for padrej, I cannot conceive of a catholic who will DEFEND someone who posts quotes from anit-catholic sites I don’t care what they are trying to prove.
This gentleman tried to pass that quote off as one being from a site that actually supports Javl’s view of Purgatory.
No sir, I am not a spoiled child and AGAIN, if you’d taken the time to read this thread you’d see I am in a DEFENSE posture here Father. I was challenged by a Protestant using our catechism. I am defending our faith as you should be, respectfully. And not let someone tell you what you believe so as to then disprove that very belief.
You will find this to be padrej’s intent if YOU WILL GO BACK AND READ the thread.
God Bless you Father and respectfullly, thank you for your criticism, but no thank you. You did not read this thread thoroughly because if you had, even though you may disagree with my view of Purgatory, you would still see padrej’s true colors and intent here.
That is to damage our beliefs as catholics.
You didn’t even notice when he used an anti-catholic site to do it. No one did. You seem to take him at his word and not even take the time to research his sources.
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happilycatholic
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To all here:
First, thank you catholicsufferer for defending me. I am not here trying to convence anyone to believe anything other that what is in the catechism. I cannot say that for others here.
I am used to being attacked by Protestants and believe it or not, by catholics who hold on to things that the Church has chosen not to.
To be accused of not being loyal to the Magisterium is rediculous. Every doctrine and dogma of the Roman Catholic Church is contained in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. If it is not contained therein, we are not bound to believe it.
The simple truth is that the doctrine of Purgatory states that it is cleansing. It also states that this is not to be confused with the punishment of the damned.
Now as I see it, the Magisterium had every opportunity to define Purgatory as punishment. However they did not.
I have not attempted to attack anyone here. I was first accused here. I was accused of not adhering to the catechism of my own Church simply because I disagreed. I did not disagree first. I tried to explain my position to others. Again and again I was challenged. Again and again I have defended my position as the teaching of the Magisterium as it is contained in the catechism.
I am the one that has been attacked here because i refuse to concede. I even tried to let it go and was continually challenged by padrej to explain my position, so in charity I did so.
Now it has come to a supposed priest attacking me for standing behind what is taught in the catechism. This is appalling to say the least.
Respectfully, Javl is an elder in the Church and probably entertains different views from me. That is why I respect his opinion and pleaded with him to let it go so I would not risk disrespect of him. He managed to let it go.
However padrej is a different story. And now because I still don’t simply concede, I am being attacked by a priest? This is why we have catholics spouting flawed teaching and Protestants able to plant the seed of doubt in their minds.
I hope that everyone here will take a step back and pray for one another. Go back, read the thread before you post against anyone here. The least you will gain is an interesting read as I believe everyone’s views here are important in understanding our faith as catholics and Protestants.
Lastly, I NEVER attacked padrej or anyone else for their beliefs or their sincerity as Christians or their loyalty to their church. However, they’ve all done this to me.
I truly believe all who have contributed to this thread are Christians and love the Lord with all their hearts. But I do honestly believe that there are some here that would like to get a catholic or two to leave the Church.
They may just be successful and a priest may be among their targets.
God Bless,
~Tonya
First, thank you catholicsufferer for defending me. I am not here trying to convence anyone to believe anything other that what is in the catechism. I cannot say that for others here.
I am used to being attacked by Protestants and believe it or not, by catholics who hold on to things that the Church has chosen not to.
To be accused of not being loyal to the Magisterium is rediculous. Every doctrine and dogma of the Roman Catholic Church is contained in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. If it is not contained therein, we are not bound to believe it.
The simple truth is that the doctrine of Purgatory states that it is cleansing. It also states that this is not to be confused with the punishment of the damned.
Now as I see it, the Magisterium had every opportunity to define Purgatory as punishment. However they did not.
I have not attempted to attack anyone here. I was first accused here. I was accused of not adhering to the catechism of my own Church simply because I disagreed. I did not disagree first. I tried to explain my position to others. Again and again I was challenged. Again and again I have defended my position as the teaching of the Magisterium as it is contained in the catechism.
I am the one that has been attacked here because i refuse to concede. I even tried to let it go and was continually challenged by padrej to explain my position, so in charity I did so.
Now it has come to a supposed priest attacking me for standing behind what is taught in the catechism. This is appalling to say the least.
Respectfully, Javl is an elder in the Church and probably entertains different views from me. That is why I respect his opinion and pleaded with him to let it go so I would not risk disrespect of him. He managed to let it go.
However padrej is a different story. And now because I still don’t simply concede, I am being attacked by a priest? This is why we have catholics spouting flawed teaching and Protestants able to plant the seed of doubt in their minds.
I hope that everyone here will take a step back and pray for one another. Go back, read the thread before you post against anyone here. The least you will gain is an interesting read as I believe everyone’s views here are important in understanding our faith as catholics and Protestants.
Lastly, I NEVER attacked padrej or anyone else for their beliefs or their sincerity as Christians or their loyalty to their church. However, they’ve all done this to me.
I truly believe all who have contributed to this thread are Christians and love the Lord with all their hearts. But I do honestly believe that there are some here that would like to get a catholic or two to leave the Church.
They may just be successful and a priest may be among their targets.
God Bless,
~Tonya
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Nathan_Wagar
Guest
HappyCatholic, I think it is a bit presumptuous to assume you can search a man’s heart and know his motives. As for your remarks against Protestants, all I see with you is that you are taking the Protestant concept of “Sola Scriptura” and applying it to the Catechism instead. Your opinion is just that, an opinion, and is divorced from historic teaching and Church Councils on the issue. Views of the nature of purgatory, such as wether it is a place or transition, how much time is spent there, etc, have been open to theological speculation through the years. The idea of purgatory as being an extension of God’s correction for sins not applied during the believer’s lifetime however, is not open for debate. Let me be more clear: I meant punshment. You seem to imply that my saying it is punishment somehow negates another post. I would point out that perhaps you have not fully read my posts to get the main point, which is that my concept of God’s punishment is not really how many people normally view punishment; i.e. as a negative thing. Argue this as you see fit, but you are coming off as dangerously arrogant. Your posts increasingly cross the line into the realm of personal attack, and are the chief reasons I don’t post on this thread anymore. Also, don’t ever imply to me that I have my faith spoon fed by Protestants out to destroy the faith. I’ll pray for you.
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happilycatholic
Guest
Arrogant? Are you serious?
I am so appalled right now at the way you and others here are attacking me for saying EXACTLY what’s in the catechism and defending that.
You accuse me of what YOU are doing.
Sola Scriptura? Oh my gosh. You are incredible. I am the one who is defending not the Bible, but the catechism here!
This is just incredible to me.
I have NOT personally attacked ANYONE. I have challenged posts. I have not said anything about an individual personally. YET THAT HAS BEEN DONE TO ME!!!
Again you accuse me of what YOU are doing.
I have the right to challenge the sources given to me by posters on this forum. You should too. Instead of just taking it all in as if it were chocolate being fed to you, you should research where these things come from!
All you have to do is research the things people post on here. You are taking the word of an anonymous poster who claims to be some ‘person’ or another.
You really should stop being so naive. And your rants are very unbecoming. You are attacking me once again because I pointed out inconstancies in your posts.
Instead of explaining why you are inconsistant, you result to insults just like padrej.
God Bless you nathanwager.
**one more thing, there are posters on here who claim to be one thing or another for the purpose of evangelizing catholics. I am not against anyone evangelizing for Christ, but they should be honest. padrej’s posts are not honest, they are misleading and I brought that into the light and was attacked for it.
You should be questioning them too.
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Nathan_Wagar
Guest
“Sola Scriptura? Oh my gosh. You are incredible. I am the one who is defending not the Bible, but the catechism here!”
**RESPONSE: “As for your remarks against Protestants, all I see with you is that you are taking the Protestant concept of “Sola Scriptura” and applying it to the Catechism instead.”
There. I reposted my remark so you can actually read it. I thought I made it obvious that you were using your own unique brand of interpretation of the catechism.**
I have NOT personally attacked ANYONE. RESPONSE: So you just implied I was spoon fed by the “nameless” Protestant that stands against the faith? ok. Sorry if I’m not going to let you skate by on innuendo.
“I have the right to challenge the sources given to me by posters on this forum. You should too. Instead of just taking it all in as if it were chocolate being fed to you, you should research where these things come from!” RESPONSE: I think you should probably keep your opinions on my study habits to yourself. I study quite well, and quite often. I also have my own personal library of Church Councils, fathers, etc. Padrej is only spoon-feeding you from your own sources. I think it’s fairly obvious I’m not Protestant, but why tell a man he’s wrong when he’s not?
You really should stop being so naive. And your rants are very unbecoming. You are attacking me once again because I pointed out inconstancies in your posts. RESPONSE: No, I enjoy intelligent debate. It seems to come in short supply with you, however. And pointing out “inconsistency” without actually showing it doesn’t really accomplish much now does it? I don’t rant. I’m very careful about what I write and I always think things through. I don’t think you do. Again, I think perhaps you should be careful who you call naive. You don’t know anything about me. You are simply giving your opinion. Let’s not take it for more than it is.
**RESPONSE: “As for your remarks against Protestants, all I see with you is that you are taking the Protestant concept of “Sola Scriptura” and applying it to the Catechism instead.”
There. I reposted my remark so you can actually read it. I thought I made it obvious that you were using your own unique brand of interpretation of the catechism.**
I have NOT personally attacked ANYONE. RESPONSE: So you just implied I was spoon fed by the “nameless” Protestant that stands against the faith? ok. Sorry if I’m not going to let you skate by on innuendo.
“I have the right to challenge the sources given to me by posters on this forum. You should too. Instead of just taking it all in as if it were chocolate being fed to you, you should research where these things come from!” RESPONSE: I think you should probably keep your opinions on my study habits to yourself. I study quite well, and quite often. I also have my own personal library of Church Councils, fathers, etc. Padrej is only spoon-feeding you from your own sources. I think it’s fairly obvious I’m not Protestant, but why tell a man he’s wrong when he’s not?
You really should stop being so naive. And your rants are very unbecoming. You are attacking me once again because I pointed out inconstancies in your posts. RESPONSE: No, I enjoy intelligent debate. It seems to come in short supply with you, however. And pointing out “inconsistency” without actually showing it doesn’t really accomplish much now does it? I don’t rant. I’m very careful about what I write and I always think things through. I don’t think you do. Again, I think perhaps you should be careful who you call naive. You don’t know anything about me. You are simply giving your opinion. Let’s not take it for more than it is.
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happilycatholic
Guest
The catechism IS the Magisterium Javl. Why do you teach beyond that? Why do you hold others to something beyond what is doctrine/dogma as stated in the catechism?
Further, why do you question MY loyalty to the Magisterium when it is ME who is stating EXACTLY what is in the catechism?
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happilycatholic
Guest
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happilycatholic
Guest
I don’t intend to continue to defend myself against personal attacks on my faith, my allegience to the Magisterium or any other such nonsense.
I have allowed others to question me and question my posts, but it seems that when I do that, I’m chastized and called every thing in the book.
I would REALLY appreciate any productive criticism on my perception of the catechism.
I respect the fact that others have a different POV here, but it seems that because I have a different POV, I have been called everything but a good catholic and then to add even more insult to that, I’ve been accused of doing that very thing to others.
So please, I know your personal opinions of me. It’s very clear. But if we could just keep this to responses dealing with the Deposit of Faith or comments that were ‘actually’ made by the Church that would be great.
Remember, all this started because I said Purgatory isn’t punishment. Now I must be some new breed of rebellious catholic dessenter. Awesome.
On a side note, if a priest in my parish spoke to a person in the way that this Father John person spoke to me, he would be repremanded and he would be the one in counseling.
I emailed that to my priest and he said it was appalling to say the least.
God Bless,
~Tonya
I have allowed others to question me and question my posts, but it seems that when I do that, I’m chastized and called every thing in the book.
I would REALLY appreciate any productive criticism on my perception of the catechism.
I respect the fact that others have a different POV here, but it seems that because I have a different POV, I have been called everything but a good catholic and then to add even more insult to that, I’ve been accused of doing that very thing to others.
So please, I know your personal opinions of me. It’s very clear. But if we could just keep this to responses dealing with the Deposit of Faith or comments that were ‘actually’ made by the Church that would be great.
Remember, all this started because I said Purgatory isn’t punishment. Now I must be some new breed of rebellious catholic dessenter. Awesome.
On a side note, if a priest in my parish spoke to a person in the way that this Father John person spoke to me, he would be repremanded and he would be the one in counseling.
I emailed that to my priest and he said it was appalling to say the least.
God Bless,
~Tonya
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FrJohnB
Guest
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happilycatholic
Guest
Do you have something to add to this thread? Is there some evidence you would like to present that my views on Purgatory are in some way in opposition to what’s stated in the catechism?
I would love to hear some constructive point of view you might have with regard to this discussion. The one beyond the linching of me that is.
I would love to hear some constructive point of view you might have with regard to this discussion. The one beyond the linching of me that is.
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happilycatholic
Guest
Now, let’s get this straight before I point this out…it is NOT a personal attack on padrej, but rather on his comments. How we are to divide that I’m not sure, but that is what is meant. We as a forum communtiy here by the nature of said forum discussion are indeed allowed to question a post and/or challenge a post so here goes:Then if you do not know IF it IS a point OR place OR state why believe it?
I am just throwing out a Protestant argument. We do know for sure heaven and hell clearly spoken of places in scripture, very easy to believe. We can believe in the Trinity although the word is not found there, the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit are mentioned in the Old and New Testaments. Kindly find "holding place"or “place of purification” where the dead in Christ are supposed to go. You will find our WORKS are tested by fire, but in its context it implies here on earth.
The Anglican’s 39 articles of religion calls Purgatory a “Romish doctrine vainly invented and grounded upon no warrant in scripture but repugnant to the Word of God” for this reason.
Please look closely at the part in red. “Repugnant to the Word of God” If this does not seek to damage our beliefs as catholics, what is the purpose of it? This states that the catholic Church teaches something that is repugnant to the Word of God. That is it is immoral, disgusting, offensive and in the least, contridictory to the Word of God.
As padrej claims to be an Anglican bishop, I would think he vehemently adheres to this position as stated in the 39 Articles of Faith. So not only is he simply disputing our belief in Purgatory, but states that our Church is teaching a blasphemy.
I am not questioning his Christianity nor his allegience to his church. I am questioning his attitute toward the catholic faith with regard to the belief in the existance of Purgatory.
You be the judge.
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Javl
Guest
In all charity I say that I and the others are not attacking you. We are just trying to correct you. I am also sorry to say that you are not following the teachings of the Magisterium and you are using a type of “sola scriptura” in your understanding of the CCC. Fr.JohnB, padrej, and I all have tried to show you the correct understanding of
Purgatory which is in the exact keeping of the Magisterium, but you insist that you know better. I am not a theologian, I’ve had minimal training, but FrJohnB and padrej who both
have been trained, should know what they are talking about. Please listen and understand.
God Bless.
P.S. As you say, we are not teaching beyond the Magisterium and we do not question
your loyalty
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
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happilycatholic
Guest
Javl:In all charity I say that I and the others are not attacking you. We are just trying to correct you. I am also sorry to say that you are not following the teachings of the Magisterium and you are using a type of “sola scriptura” in your understanding of the CCC. Fr.JohnB, padrej, and I all have tried to show you the correct understanding of
Purgatory which is in the exact keeping of the Magisterium, but you insist that you know better. I am not a theologian, I’ve had minimal training, but FrJohnB and padrej who both
have been trained, should know what they are talking about. Please listen and understand.
God Bless.
P.S. As you say, we are not teaching beyond the Magisterium and we do not question
your loyalty
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
I am really sorry but every catholic priest does not teach the same thing. We as catholics are bound to what is in the catechism, not necessarily what comes out of the mouths of popes, bishops, priests and other clergy. Why do you think we have the catechism in the first place? The catechism was first and foremost meant for the use of catechists in their teaching the lay community when coming into the Church. Next, it is meant for the “people in the pews” so to speak. Knowledge of teaching outside the catechism is useful, but not required for the understanding of the catechism.
What you are teaching requires knowlege outside the catechism. Not only that, it is outside what the Church currently teaches on the doctrine of Purgatory. There are certainly doctrines with regard to Purgatory that we are required to believe, the fact that purification should be interpreted as synonymous with punishment is not one of those doctrines.
I’m not real sure how you and others here, both catholic and non-catholic can arrive at the conclusion that the Church ‘wants’ us to believe that Purgatory is more punishment that purification. But the statement that the purification of Purgatory is “entirely different than the punishment of the damned” is a good enough indication to me that Purgatory is something ENTIRELY DIFFERENT than the punishment of the eternally damned.
So, with that said whether you decide to admit it or you don’t, you are proclaiming something different and in fact in opposition to what the catechism actually states.
It’s not that difficult.
Furthermore, I’m not using sola scriputra at all. I’m not sure why you and others have brought this into the mix, but what I did say was that you can be proven incorrect with Scripture which is what padrej has been trying to do all along.
Padrej is getting away with proving his point and using you to do it and you don’t even realize that.
You are clearly defining Purgatory in a way that the Church does not. I’m sorry, but a short read of the catechism will prove me correct on this.
I wish you the best. You should really rethink accusing someone of not being in allegience with the Magisterium. We as catholics are not bound by every thing the Pope or the Magisterium says. Only that which is doctrine, dogma or something spoken ex cathedra (which would reaffirm doctrine/dogma or establish new doctrine).
You erroneously claim that we are bound by all that is uttered by “the Magisterium” as if that meant all that is uttered by every Pope, bishop, and priest. That is just plain incorrect. The Magisterium refers to the “Teaching of the Church”, not the people who make up the Magisterium.
If what you claim is correct, then all that has been done or said by a pope, bishop, and/or a priest would be official teaching of the Magisterium. I think we both know that would be opening up ourselves to much more than either you or I can defend in a lifetime.
I do not treat the catechism as the sole source of faith doctrine. However, it is definitely the source of what we are bound to believe as catholics. There is not a single doctrine or dogma that we are bound to as catholics that is not contained in the catechism.
We just simply are not bound to believe that Purgatory is punishment. What we are bound to believe is that Purgatory is a cleansing of the Temporal Punishment of sin. Period.
You can choose not to believe what is in the catechism if you wish. But you cannot accuse me of teaching something other than what’s in the catechism. I have not done such a thing.
This statement speaks to who is in line with the Magisterium:
“…entirely different from the punishment of the damned”. This is what I have proclaimed.
I’m sorry, but it is what it is. Believe it or not.
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