HOW IS AN ATHEIST CONSCIENCE FORMED?

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Benadam:
As far as the comparison of lives lost in a natural disaster and lives lost at the hands of a man, one is a moral issue the other is not.
Isn’t the deaths on the hands of the government who said that the warning system isn’t worth the cost? A lot of those deaths could have been averted by science. The question I was trying to pose was why we feel different about loss of life when it happens in all sorts of different ways.
 
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zootjeff:
Isn’t the deaths on the hands of the government who said that the warning system isn’t worth the cost? A lot of those deaths could have been averted by science. The question I was trying to pose was why we feel different about loss of life when it happens in all sorts of different ways.
the deaths are not on the hands of the officials. an error of judgement that contributed to an unknown percentage of the total deaths is. They are guilty of a bad decision that had grave consequences. I doubt any official there has a desire to kill or wishes anyone dead or even lacks feelings for others relative to the average person.

You can’t really be suggesting that it’s wrong to experience the loss of lives of fellow countrymen on a more personal level than the lives of other countrymen. Patriotism is a good thing.

Nobody agreed that atheists are less moral. On the other hand when the source of something like morals and conscience is denied the purpose and reason behind them are lost as well.
 
Lisa N:
Sorry but you have NEVER addressed the uniqueness of humans. Why are we compassionate? Altruistic? Why do we love something when their is no logical reason? Why do we create and appreciate beautiful music? Why do we create beautiful art? Dance? There are so many things that cannot be explained away by laws of gravity and such.
It should be mentioned that a number of these behaviors have been identified in other species – dolphins, for instance, display altruism even when it doesn’t aid their own survival (and, in fact, may put that survival in danger).

For instance, last month, a couple New Zealanders were swimming in the ocean when they were attacked by sharks. To their surprise, a passing pod of dolphins surrounded them, and proceeded to protect them for the next 40 minutes until the humans were out of danger. news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4034383.stm

This sort of behavior is well-recorded in dolphins. That stuff about dolphins saving drowning people and bringing them back to shore isn’t a myth – they really do that. If you’re drowning in the ocean and a dolphin is nearby enough to notice, it will usually go out of its way to get you back to land.

What instinctual basis could there be for this? They derive no benefit from helping humans. Heck, they couldn’t even have learned this instinctually through dealing with other dolphins – other dolphins don’t tend to drown, and even if one were drowning, you could hardly give it a ride back to the shore to solve the problem.

Other activities classically viewed as “humans only” have been observed in the animal kingdom, too, often in remarkably surprising places. Octopi in the Mediterranean have been observed decorating their nests with white walls and red rooftops – just like the beachfront homes on the shore near them.

Chimpanzees, our closest relative in the animal kingdom, have even been recorded displaying what looks an awful lot like culture-influenced behavior rather than instinctual – travelling out of their way to dance around in front of a particularly spectacular waterfall, for example. (And not just once, but as a regular occurence.)
 
*That stuff about dolphins saving drowning people and bringing them back to shore isn’t a myth – they really do that. If you’re drowning in the ocean and a dolphin is nearby enough to notice, it will usually go out of its way to get you back to land.

What instinctual basis could there be for this?*
it has been suggested that a dolphin will rescue it’s companion since they are monogamous, and a mother dolphin will prod it’s young to the surface for air.

Also there are human behaviours unrivaled in the animal kingdom that are the result of the human intellect. you might want to read the thread more thoroughly, I’ve posted several times commenting on the differences.
 
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Benadam:
it has been suggested that a dolphin will rescue it’s companion since they are monogamous, and a mother dolphin will prod it’s young to the surface for air.
None of that really explains a pod of dolphins forming a tight circle around a couple humans being attacked by a great white shark, swimming in circles around them for 40 minutes, and staying that way until after the shark leaves, though.
Also there are human behaviours unrivaled in the animal kingdom that are the result of the human intellect. you might want to read the thread more thoroughly, I’ve posted several times commenting on the differences.
Oh, certainly. I don’t think anyone doubts that humans are much smarter than the rest of the animal kingdom. The question, though, is whether the difference is a qualitative or quantitative one. The fact that we are the most intelligent animal does not automatically mean that no other animals possess intelligence, or possibly even self-awareness.
 
SamCA]None of that really explains a pod of dolphins forming a tight circle around a couple humans being attacked by a great white shark, swimming in circles around them for 40 minutes, and staying that way until after the shark leaves, though.

Those are behaviours a dolphin will do for other dolphins. remarkable yes, extraordinary, no.

Oh, certainly. I don’t think anyone doubts that humans are much smarter than the rest of the animal kingdom. The question, though, is whether the difference is a qualitative or quantitative one. The fact that we are the most intelligent animal does not automatically mean that no other animals possess intelligence, or possibly even self-awareness

**No, humans have the ability to apprehend an order of reality that no other animal can. Eternal realities. ( eternal= changeless) If you have observed an animal manifest intellect (not to be confused with intelligence) then the gulf between us has been closed. There is a breath of difference seperating man and animal, but it’s the breath of God. **
 
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SamCA:
None of that really explains a pod of dolphins forming a tight circle around a couple humans being attacked by a great white shark, swimming in circles around them for 40 minutes, and staying that way until after the shark leaves, though.
Sure it does. The dophins were protecting themselves from a known predator and the humans happened to be lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time.

Had the dolphins raced in from miles away to save the hapless humans, you would have really had somethiing. They didn’t. That they recognize sharks as enemies and were displaying protective behavior is not extraordinary. The action could have been as easily explained by dolpins simply protecting their own and the humans happened to be in the right place at the right time. IOW I suspect that the humans were “collateral protection” rather than demonstrating that dolphins have an innate conscious about saving human beings.
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SamCA:
Oh, certainly. I don’t think anyone doubts that humans are much smarter than the rest of the animal kingdom. The question, though, is whether the difference is a qualitative or quantitative one. The fact that we are the most intelligent animal does not automatically mean that no other animals possess intelligence, or possibly even self-awareness.
Look no one who’s owned an animal is going to deny they have intelligence. In fact given that there are different types of intelligence in human beings, it’s not much of a stretch to recognize that being smart as a horse or a dog requires a different kind of of bra(name removed by moderator)ower. IOW horses are the smartest animal in the world at being a horse. They aren’t very smart at being a dog. Nor are they able to reason like a human. But they are quite teachable and quite aware of themselves.

However as has been stated repeatedly, there is no creature that can compose a Mozart quality musical score or sculpt like Michaelangelo. I don’t think any animal will build rockets or computers. We are indeed very special creatures.

Lisa N
 
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Benadam:
Those are behaviours a dolphin will do for other dolphins. remarkable yes, extraordinary, no.
Absolutely.

Now what benefit would they get by performing the same service for a different species, one that they have virtually no relationship or interaction with in the wild?
No, humans have the ability to apprehend an order of reality that no other animal can. Eternal realities. ( eternal= changeless) If you have observed an animal manifest intellect (not to be confused with intelligence) then the gulf between us has been closed. There is a breath of difference seperating man and animal, but it’s the breath of God.
Well, again – Jane Goodall and several other scientists who’ve spent a lot of time observing chimpanzees in the wild have seen them display what looks an awful lot like religious behavior. Goodall reported seeing the tribe she was observing performing seemingly ritualized rain dances, and has already been mentioned, a number of observed cases of ritual behavior in front of waterfalls have been observed.

Would that fit your criteria?
 
Lisa N:
Sure it does. The dophins were protecting themselves from a known predator and the humans happened to be lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time.
Except the shark wasn’t paying any attention to them. It was circling the humans. The dolphins were further away from them than the shark was; they interposed themselves between the shark and the humans.
Had the dolphins raced in from miles away to save the hapless humans, you would have really had somethiing. They didn’t. That they recognize sharks as enemies and were displaying protective behavior is not extraordinary. The action could have been as easily explained by dolpins simply protecting their own and the humans happened to be in the right place at the right time. IOW I suspect that the humans were “collateral protection” rather than demonstrating that dolphins have an innate conscious about saving human beings.
If this were the only such example on the books, I would be inclined to agree. But given the range of examples of dolphins displaying cross-species altruism (coupled with more general evidence of dolphin intelligence, up to and including the use of tools), I think there’s a pattern worthy of note here.

Now, as I understand the Catholic position, animals have no soul. And yet, many species of animal display altruism, even to the extent of sacrificing their own lives for other members of their species. A handful, like dolphins, will even display altruism toward different species.
Look no one who’s owned an animal is going to deny they have intelligence. In fact given that there are different types of intelligence in human beings, it’s not much of a stretch to recognize that being smart as a horse or a dog requires a different kind of of bra(name removed by moderator)ower. IOW horses are the smartest animal in the world at being a horse. They aren’t very smart at being a dog. Nor are they able to reason like a human. But they are quite teachable and quite aware of themselves.

However as has been stated repeatedly, there is no creature that can compose a Mozart quality musical score or sculpt like Michaelangelo. I don’t think any animal will build rockets or computers. We are indeed very special creatures.
Rockets or computers, no. But what about simpler tools? A great many species have been observed using tools; a smaller number have been observed making tools.

Does the fact that we make much better and more complex tools mean that our intellect is fundamentally different, or just that we have more of it?
 
Absolutely.

Now what benefit would they get by performing the same service for a different species, one that they have virtually no relationship or interaction with in the wild?

** that’s assuming they aren’t drawn to the fact that there is another smooth skinned airbreathing mammal in the water. Dolphins have been known to attempt to mate with humans as well.**

Well, again – Jane Goodall and several other scientists who’ve spent a lot of time observing chimpanzees in the wild have seen them display what looks an awful lot like religious behavior. Goodall reported seeing the tribe she was observing performing seemingly ritualized rain dances, and has already been mentioned, a number of observed cases of ritual behavior in front of waterfalls have been observed.

Would that fit your criteria?

One or two observations of deviant behaviour can hardly meet that criteria.
That behaviour is a far cry from showing a pattern of life that intellect manifests.
I have no doubt about the possibility that there were hominids that manifested behaviour that imitated intellect to a much a higher degree. This would be expected when flesh reaches it’s pinnacle of consciousness just short of Man.
 
Lisa N:
But that’s the operative term–may have–as far as we know–so you are equivocating. As you said we DONT know and frankly on the surface it makes no sense whatsoever. Explain the PURPOSE of music? Explain the PURPOSE of being able to recognize beauty? I look at a beautiful green field, sparkling with dew and I feel uplifted. My horse looks at it and sees lunch.
There doesn’t have to be a purpose any more than a crystal formation has a purpose. It may simply “be.”
You can’t paraphrase psychology because it too is merely a figament of someone’s imagination. It’s not empirical science. Very little can be proven. A theory about cause or treatment may find favor and then be completely rejected. How many “mental illnesses” magically morphed into normal behaviors?
While I agree that psychology is not a science it is still a useful field of study and has made important contributions to our understanding of people.
Psychology is hardly a standard that would prove ANYTHING except you can convince a lot of people you know a lot more than you do know.
I’m not trying to prove something only show that it could exist without God’s intervention. Hence dispelling the argument you are trying to use.
As to role models, riddle me this batman, how did the child of two atheists become a Catholic? I don’t remember KNOWING any Catholics when I was a kid and I do remember being terrified of religious in their habits and wimples.

I guess it’s just one of those mysteries?
I already explained about the multitude of influences.
Again why? And why did humans become more sentient and other animals did not?
Because if we hadn’t you wouldn’t be asking the question.
Further one of the great advantages of humans is the ability to compile learning and pass it on through multiple generations. No other animal can do that. How did that happen?
Through the develoment of language.
How do you KNOW a dog is or is not self aware? Do you hear their thought patterns? Have you ever owned a dog? Observed their behavior? They seem pretty aware of themselves if you ask me.
Yes I’ve owned dogs and they tend to follow very simple predictable behavior patterns. A dog never paints a picture. Nor attempts poetry, or any other behavior not simply explained by their much more rudimentary brains.
Sorry but you have NEVER addressed the uniqueness of humans. Why are we compassionate? Altruistic? Why do we love something when their is no logical reason? Why do we create and appreciate beautiful music? Why do we create beautiful art? Dance? There are so many things that cannot be explained away by laws of gravity and such.
they are explained by the chaotic system nature of our brains. If you lived all your life in a desert you might think a monsoon was magic but you’d be wrong. Its a product of a chaotic system (in the mathematical sense), in this case the atmosphere.
Atheists can reason through unessential things but they fail miserably to provide any basis for the greatness of creation.

LIsa N
You insist on a greatness and then look for the meaning of it. Prove the greatness first.
 
zootjeff

If in a court of law you plea: “God told me to do this.” You would be locked up for being insane. No Joke.

Well, who would object if this person was locked up? God does not order crimes.
 
SamCa

I’m having a problem following the relevance of all this discussion of dolphins to the human conscience and the sense of right and wrong.

Are you just asserting that we are the same as other animals, or they are the same as us, except maybe in degree only?

Tell me, do you think other animals have a conception of God? Do you think they have a sense of natural law and conscience? Do you think they ever wonder if their actions may be judged by God? Do you think they ever grieve for their sins or rejoice in their triumph over sin?

I think you are comparing the proverbial apples and oranges by reducing all human morality to just another animal reflex.
 
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Carl:
Well, who would object if this person was locked up? God does not order crimes.
Hmm…God ordered Abraham to kill Isaac (Genesis 22:2) …don’t you consider a parent killing their child to be a crime?
 
Did Abaraham kill his child? Why not?

Obviously, the story is meant to correct the pagan practice of human sacrifice of the young.

So God is still at work building the human conscience through Abraham.
 
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Tlaloc:
There doesn’t have to be a purpose any more than a crystal formation has a purpose. It may simply “be.”

**So what’s your point? There probably are inanimate **
objects like crystals that simply ‘are’ but how does
that relate to the thread?


While I agree that psychology is not a science it is still a useful field of study and has made important contributions to our understanding of people.

It has also made important contributions to a total failure to understand people. If we understood why people behave in certain ways, we’d have been able to stop them. Instead all of the ‘advances’ in psychology have netted an increasingly deviant and chaotic society. I think we need more spiritual healing than talking heads.

I’m not trying to prove something only show that it could exist without God’s intervention. Hence dispelling the argument you are trying to use.

**You haven’t shown anything. Again you keep basing your conclusions on your opinions. You haven’t proved anything has happened without God’s intervention. **

I already explained about the multitude of influences.

I already told you that those “multitude of influences” did not apply to my case. Again, atheist, hostile to religion in any form parents, no religious friends, in fact my best friend from childhood is at best agnostic still, my husband hasn’t been to a church since the day we married over 25 years ago, I don’t work around religious people. I had no contact with anyone religious much less Catholic. I believe God made Himself known to me and I am very blessed to have THAT influence rather than the negative influences that surrounded me through the first forty or so years of my life.

Because if we hadn’t you wouldn’t be asking the question.

Pointless answer so I’ll just add to the drivel factor.

Through the develoment of language.

HOW did language develop? Why did humans develop a complex language? WHy do humans have a concept of past present future?

Yes I’ve owned dogs and they tend to follow very simple predictable behavior patterns. A dog never paints a picture. Nor attempts poetry, or any other behavior not simply explained by their much more rudimentary brains.

The issue is not whether dogs are as smart or creative as people but rather whether they are self aware, i.e. sentient for purposes of most when using that term. I think they are self aware. Some more than others.

they are explained by the chaotic system nature of our brains. If you lived all your life in a desert you might think a monsoon was magic but you’d be wrong. Its a product of a chaotic system (in the mathematical sense), in this case the atmosphere.

Why would you think it was magic? You don’t have any context for magic if you don’t think there is another dimension. Again your point is?

You insist on a greatness and then look for the meaning of it. Prove the greatness first.
No I don’t have to prove greatness of creation. I assume somewhere in your life you’ve listened to Beethoven, seen a photo of a Michaelangelo sculpture, listened to a recording of Einstein, watched a video on Mother Teresa. There is greatness all around. If you are unaware of it you might as well BE a rock.

Lisa N
 
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Carl:
Tell me, do you think other animals have a conception of God? Do you think they have a sense of natural law and conscience? Do you think they ever wonder if their actions may be judged by God?
That is a most interesting question! Guess, we’ll never know the answer, unless we learn to communicate with dolphin, or other primates.

What if the answer is YES (at least for some animals)?
Is that proof for God or proof that mankind is not special?

And what if answer is NO? If humans are the only animals with a notion of God, and nobody else cares, couldn’t that mean, mankind invented God?
 
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AnAtheist:
That is a most interesting question! Guess, we’ll never know the answer, unless we learn to communicate with dolphin, or other primates.

What if the answer is YES (at least for some animals)?
Is that proof for God or proof that mankind is not special?

And what if answer is NO? If humans are the only animals with a notion of God, and nobody else cares, couldn’t that mean, mankind invented God?
good exercise !

I know you probably don’t want to hear this but:
we can know the answer because there would be evidence of such a remarkable state of consiousness. I don’t equate the absence of evidence with a negation of one side of the equation. It’s more reasonable to assume it isn’t true because of that than to assume we’ll never know. So far we can know the answer is no.

If the answer is yes then animals are also made in the image of God just in the way man is.
I
f this happened, I would still believe ( after I found myself again ) that God exists but His meaning would change as well as mine.

If the answer is no…well nothing would change.
 
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Carl:
zootjeff

If in a court of law you plea: “God told me to do this.” You would be locked up for being insane. No Joke.

Well, who would object if this person was locked up? God does not order crimes.
Well, many abortion doctor killers plea that way. They think they are saving many lives by killing one.
 
They are not killing one. They are killing more than a million each year. An atheist with a conscience can see this, as the famous atheist Chester Dolan has said in Religion on Trial:

“… abortion should become so intensely horrifying to us that we would never be guilty of such monstrous behavior without compelling reasons.”
 
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