HOW IS AN ATHEIST CONSCIENCE FORMED?

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AnAtheist:
Morals are defined within a society, so what is right or wrong depends strongly on the cultural environment. I agree with the catholic position of a natural law, i.e. some build-in human codex, of course I do not recognise your god as its source…
Do you believe there IS a source?
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AnAtheist:
This is where we disagree (philosophically). If I create a mouse with a desire for eating cheese, then I create a tasty cheese and tell the mouse not to eat it for no good reason, yet I know that it will disobey that command and do nothing about it. Who gets the blame? Me, the mouse, the cheese? Keep in mind that in the process of creating I already knew that my creation will fail on my own standards, because I created it that way…
An analogy of Mice and Men is not very applicable. Mice do not reason, do not have that capacity (lest you disagree I assure you I’m a mouse expert). How does this support your argument that freewill equals total control. You are contradicting yourself again.

BTW mice do not like cheese. If you would like to entice a mouse use peanut butter…works much better.
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AnAtheist:
Wow, yet you claim to know some particular attributes of your god.
No I specifically state that I do not know but for you to assume God’s existence in space and time is equivalent to our own is quite a giant leap.

Lisa N
 
Lisa N:
Do you believe there IS a source?
If you call evolution a source, yes.
An analogy of Mice and Men is not very applicable.
I know, but I couldn’t come up with something better to illustrate my point right away.
How does this support your argument that freewill equals total control. You are contradicting yourself again.
That is not my argument. My argument is, an omnipotent and omniscient entity creating everything and setting everything in motion equals total control, and thus leaves no room for free will.
BTW mice do not like cheese. If you would like to entice a mouse use peanut butter…works much better.
🙂
No I specifically state that I do not know
:confused: Are you an agnostic?
 
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AnAtheist:
If you call evolution a source, yes.

I know, but I couldn’t come up with something better to illustrate my point right away.
That is not my argument. My argument is, an omnipotent and omniscient entity creating everything and setting everything in motion equals total control, and thus leaves no room for free will.

🙂

:confused: Are you an agnostic?
I guess we are arguing at cross purposes then since I think “setting in motion” IS freewill and you say it is the opposite. Winding the clock doesn’t mean you control its every tick but obviously you disagree.

No I am not an agnostic. I grew up an atheist and moved up as God made Himself known to me. I am currently in the process of converting to Catholicism (much to the horror of my atheist mother). I think you interpret my saying I don’t KNOW everything about God, I am therefore denying God exists. Not the case. What I am saying is that I acknowledge God is beyond my human scope of understanding and I would never dream of assuming I know all about Him.

Lisa N

PS Good luck on the mouse hunt!
 
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Carl:
But how does a society generate compassion without the command of God to love one another? And what religion, other than the one founded by Christ, asserts this virtue as its central teaching?

You will certainly not find compassion as the central doctrine of Darwin, or Nietzsche, or Sartre, or Freud, or most other famous atheists/agnostics. This doesn’t mean there aren’t atheists who are very compassionate. But, as discussed earlier in this thread, how much of that spirit of compassion is the residue of a once dominantly Christian culture or personal family history?
You know, this is very interesting to me. I am an ex-atheist, ex-agnostic, Catholic Christian, so I don’t know if my answer will make much sense to anyone or not. This question of how does a society generate compassion without the command of God to love one another, I think is easily answered but not easily proven.

My response is the society does not generate compassion without the command of God. Whether people recognize it or not, God’s plan is always at work, know what I mean? However, how does a society generate compassion without the RECOGNITION of God, could be answered another way. I think perhaps the answer is the society will be ruled according to its ruler, meaning if the ruler or gov. is compassionate then the laws and punishment will reflect this, but if the ruler is bad, then there will be no compassion. I hope this isn’t a frustrating answer. Some rulers are allowing their “hearts” (God) to guide them and some aren’t. My main point with this is to say that there is a difference between being without God and being without the understanding that God exists. No one is without God, but many just don’t know that God is a part of their lives.

As an atheist, I think I would have thought of it as a mystery as far as why are humans compassionate, but I would’ve thought that it is how we evolved and that society determines what is acceptable behavior or not. Also, atheists value life very much in my opinion.

As an atheist, I did not think of an afterlife, so you had to make this one on earth good because there was no second chance. Because of this desire to have a good life on earth, then I think an atheist may be more likely to want to “make things right”, than some Christians. In other words, we, as Christians, may say that an “evil” person will get their punishment after death. An atheist would think this bad inhumane person must be punished now on earth (i.e. death penalty). There also is no concept of redemptive suffering, so atheists do not see much good in suffering except maybe to build character to handle more situation in life. I think this leads some to suicide since there is no fear of punishment for suicide. Life is very valuable to many atheists because our life on earth is the only life we have in their view, but many see no purpose in suffering. It makes the sudden death of loved ones even more difficult for the atheist in my view. However, they don’t want to see suffering, so they are probably more likely to accept euthanasia, I think. As Christians, we have hope that the loved one will have everlasting life and we know the sin in not allowing God’s plan to play out by using either suicide or euthanasia or abortion or whatever. Am I getting into too many subjects. I’m new at this forum stuff. I’ll work on shorter responses.
 
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AnAtheist:
…That is not my argument. My argument is, an omnipotent and omniscient entity creating everything and setting everything in motion equals total control, and thus leaves no room for free will. …
What if an omnipotent and omniscient entity created free will? Would’nt we have free will if God created us with our own will?

Which means more to you, a person who loves you or a person who has no choice but to love you? I know that sounds odd, but would love mean anything, if someone HAD to love you. This is why we say God gave us free will, so that we will truly choose his will instead of being forced into his will or being created to have no choice but to do his will, like programmed robots or something.
 
Lisa N:
No I am not an agnostic. I grew up an atheist and moved up as God made Himself known to me. I am currently in the process of converting to Catholicism (much to the horror of my atheist mother). I think you interpret my saying I don’t KNOW everything about God, I am therefore denying God exists. Not the case. What I am saying is that I acknowledge God is beyond my human scope of understanding and I would never dream of assuming I know all about Him.

Lisa N
Isn’t it great when God makes Himself know to us? I don’t tell my story because I think most won’t believe it, but I know what occurred was real. It is why I will always be Christian as well as always Catholic. I just wanted to say congratulations and wondered if you’ve been baptized. It meant so much to me to become baptized and it feels wonderful. My atheist parents gave me very little trouble after I explained why I started believing in God. I thought they’d say I was nuts, but they seem to be giving me the benefit of the doubt. The only thing is I think my Dad wonders why he hasn’t had a sign. I’m happy that he’d want one though.
 
AnAtheist

Morals are defined within a society, so what is right or wrong depends strongly on the cultural environment. I agree with the catholic position of a natural law, i.e. some build-in human codex, of course I do not recognise your god as its source.

I’m having difficulty grasping this. Morals may be defined within a society, but they may also be rightly or wrongly defined, depending on the society.

For example, I assume you take it as a given that Nazi morals are wrongly defined. What then would be the morals that oppose Nazi morals? The moral teachings of Darwin, Nietzsche, Freud or Jesus Christ?
 
LISA

We are in agreement: dogs do not like Nietzsche and mice love peanut butter.
 
WhatIf

I’m partial to short posts myself, but your long ones are good.

Carl
 
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WhatIf:
Isn’t it great when God makes Himself know to us? I don’t tell my story because I think most won’t believe it, but I know what occurred was real. It is why I will always be Christian as well as always Catholic. I just wanted to say congratulations and wondered if you’ve been baptized. It meant so much to me to become baptized and it feels wonderful. My atheist parents gave me very little trouble after I explained why I started believing in God. I thought they’d say I was nuts, but they seem to be giving me the benefit of the doubt. The only thing is I think my Dad wonders why he hasn’t had a sign. I’m happy that he’d want one though.
Yes I understand completely. Sometimes it sounds a little too “woo woo” to say that God made Himself known to me, wrote upon my heart. I think God tries to make Himself known, but sometimes people don’t recognize the signs. One of my friends says she loves the illustration of Jesus standing at the door knocking. I am sure that this happens to many people who don’t hear the knock or maybe they are afraid to answer.

I hope your Dad gets that sign:)

Lisa N
 
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Carl:
…The point I was trying to make, and apparently I haven’t made it clearly enough, is that the conscience of an atheist inescapably is fashioned at least in part by the natural law and by the Golden Rule, both of which are distinctly CAtholic beliefs promulgated for many centuries. Atheists are not born into a moral vacuum. They absorb this Judeo-Christian heritage from childhood onward even when they are not aware of it. They absorb it even when they are aware of it and are fighting it. The atheists in these forums are absorbing concepts distinctly Christian, even as they oppose and try to logically dismantle them.

If they are not careful, they may be reformed. They may become the very thing they oppose.

Deo gratias!
I agree. BTW, I hadn’t mentioned that my grandparents were Christian and therefore my Father’s morals could’ve easily been influence by them and then passed on to me even though he is an atheist. I went from atheist to agnostic to Catholic and it helped to know that my Grandparents were believers.
 
Lisa N:
I guess we are arguing at cross purposes then since I think “setting in motion” IS freewill and you say it is the opposite. Winding the clock doesn’t mean you control its every tick but obviously you disagree.
Yes. Good example btw. If I wind the clock, and I know that it will tick afterwards, I am directly responsble for the ticks.
I think you interpret my saying I don’t KNOW everything about God, I am therefore denying God exists.
No. Some agnostics do believe in a god, they just state that it is impossible to know anything about him.
 
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AnAtheist:
Yes. Good example btw. If I wind the clock, and I know that it will tick afterwards, I am directly responsble for the ticks…
Not really. Human beings differ from a mechanical device such as a clock. Truly the clock doesn’t have “free will” it simply operates within the capacities built into it.

We continue to disagree on a fundamental definition. I do not think freewill is equivalent to responsbility. In fact I think it’s the antithesis. I would really appreciate if you would provide some support for your position as I have not seen anything to that end. You keep repeating the same statement as if repetition will make it so. It is not the same.

A better analogy between God and human beings would be the parent child relationship. In fact that is acknowledged throughout scripture. God is our Father. Mary is our Mother. We are Children of God.

So to connect the dots here and differentiate between responsibility and free will: Parents create their child. The child is a product of their DNA. The mother carries the child through the early stage of development. She feeds the baby from her own body. Indeed parents have both responsibility and control, particularly early on. However freewill asserts itself immediately as any parent of a crying baby can attest. The baby is crated with the capacity to cry, so yes it is in the very DNA that the parents passed on. But the parents, once the child is born, cannot CONTROL the child’s every thought, every action, every reaaction. The child has freewill and as he grows and matures, his freewill becomes more and more obvious.

Just as once Adam and Eve left the Garden, they traded God’s control and the eternal life promised for freewill.
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AnAtheist:
No. Some agnostics do believe in a god, they just state that it is impossible to know anything about him.
Not the definition of agnostic I’ve ever heard. This group sounds like Unitarians.

Lisa N
 
Free will is established as an aspect of our conscience right from the start.

God gives Adam and Eve a choice: to eat or not to eat from the forbidden tree.

Likewise, free will is stressed again in the next great drama, when Cain contemplates murdering Abel.

*So the LORD said to Cain: "Why are you so resentful and crestfallen?

If you do well, you can hold up your head; but if not, sin is a demon lurking at the door: his urge is toward you, yet you can be his master." *

How can anybody take seriously the notion that we are all puppets whose strings are pulled by God willy-nilly to our salvation or destruction?

For this reason, the truly religious person has a more powerful conscience than the modern fatalist who attributes his sins and crimes to environment, genes, or pure rotten luck.
 
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Carl:
And what religion, other than the one founded by Christ, asserts this virtue as its central teaching?
Buddhism comes to mind. (Though I suppose there’s room for debate over whether Buddhism qualifies as a religion; then again, atheism isn’t a religion either, so it’s still relevant to the conversation.)
 
I am trying to recall which branch of buddhism you are talking about, and the document in which *love * is identified as the central doctrine.
 
WhatIf

I went from atheist to agnostic to Catholic and it helped to know that my Grandparents were believers.

And I’ll bet they’re watching over you even as we speak.
 
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Carl:
I am trying to recall which branch of buddhism you are talking about, and the document in which *love *is identified as the central doctrine.
There are some buddhists on this list because they posted extensively on a Unitarian thread. So maybe they will weigh in here.

But from taking a few classes, reading a few books, I don’t see Buddhism as having love for a central doctrine (I think that was your point right!?) They have “right action” and “right thought” and “noble truths” but I am not sure what is considered the authority. IOW why are these noble truths? Clearly they are not worshipping the Buddha, but maybe he is the authority?

It will be interesting to have some of them weigh in here because as I understand they do not worship any deity. So does that make them by definition atheist? Hmmmm

Lisa N
 
Lisa

Yes, to refresh my memory I went to several buddhist web pages and could not find any reference to the the kind of love Jesus talked about as their central doctrine.

You cannot go to any Jesus web page and find it lacking such reference.
 
Natural law! Natural law! Natural law!

God has given each person, created in His image a desire to fulfill what is God-like, that is… what is good. Not objectively good, truly good. When the atheist is acting according to God’s natural law he is partially fulfilled because he is participating in God’s plan. When the atheist is acting contrary to God’s natural law he is dissatisfied even though he can’t name the dissatisfaction… it is his soul crying out for the fulfillment which God intends for him.
 
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