How is Bayonetta Satanic?

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Sorry but Fr. Euteneuer does nothing but make bare assertions with appeal to his own authority (exorcism) on subjects that he is not an authority on (literature/fiction).

Furthermore, recent events have put the man’s integrity to question.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=532872
I would be very careful about how I say what I say about any Catholic priest friend. I caution you to be careful because rebellion is born of the devil and slander against a man of God is a sin. He is a man just as you or I and can commit sin just as we do and will do so. Being a priest doesn’t mean he is perfect but his sins don’t make his pronouncements on the faith and matters of spirituality and morals irrelevant. All men and women sin. Does that mean we disregard what they say because they are flawed? No. If he is in fact guilty of what he is being accused then he will answer to God and those responsible for him in due time. Saying he is making bare assertions is based on what? Do you have evidence that he is not speaking from a position of authority and knowledge on such matters or are you just hoping he is wrong so you don’t have to feel guilty about loving the H.Potter series?
Uh yes it is. You’ve heard of stage magic right? Are you saying the Church condemns that? I don’t think so. The CCC specifically specifies its definitions of witchcraft and occult. Magic in fantasy fiction such as Harry Potter does not fall under that. Stage magic doesn’t fall under that either. In the Harry Potter universe (as well as plenty other fantasy fictional universes including LotR), magic is a natural ability found within a certain group of people.
So because the concept is slightly modified (witches are born witches instead of taught witchcraft) the concept of the movie does not represent that of witchcraft? I am not referring to slight of hand and trickery. The magic in Harry Potter is obviously not mean to illustrate trickery but is meant to speak to a supernatural use of power not born of God. And if it is supernatural and not of God I wonder who it is meant to come from?
The reverse is also the same. A Christian won’t be possessed by saying Wingardium Leviosa.
I am not speaking about the authenticity of the ACTUAL spells or methods used in the movie to ILLUSTRATE witchcraft. The author would be mad to use real or complete spells or invocations in a movie so overtly. The message however has been widely received as we see True Blood and Wizards of Waverly place-type TV shows popping up all over the networks. Acceptance of true magic and occultism is so much easier when you have a population conditioned to accept it.
 
…or are you just hoping he is wrong so you don’t have to feel guilty about loving the H.Potter series?
Just to provide a second perspective, I’m a new Catholic and so I’m ignoring ad hominem attacks against my fellow posters as a desperate attempt to compensate for a lack of theological rigor.
So because the concept is slightly modified (witches are born witches instead of taught witchcraft) the concept of the movie does not represent that of witchcraft? I am not referring to slight of hand and trickery. The magic in Harry Potter is obviously not mean to illustrate trickery but is meant to speak to a supernatural use of power not born of God. And if it is supernatural and not of God I wonder who it is meant to come from?
I reject this since it is a gross malapropism of theological terms. I wouldn’t bat an eyelash if my protestant friends conflated “supernatural” and “preternatural,” but I expect better from Catholics who presume to judge their brethren.
I am not speaking about the authenticity of the ACTUAL spells or methods used in the movie to ILLUSTRATE witchcraft. The author would be mad to use real or complete spells or invocations in a movie so overtly. The message however has been widely received as we see True Blood and Wizards of Waverly place-type TV shows popping up all over the networks. Acceptance of true magic and occultism is so much easier when you have a population conditioned to accept it.
I agree that Harry Potter is part of a popular trend of interest in magic and monsters. However, I view that trend with (cautious) optimism. To listen to the Pope, our biggest philosophical enemy is secularism. Mysticism is the enemy of our enemy, and so, in a sense our ally. After all, we can always hope that the neo-Pagans become Christian just as countless Pagans did before them.
 
Fantasy magic is representative of real magic just as the cross in representative of Jesus’ sacrifice for the sake of our sins.
False comparison. I’ve seen crosses used to symbolize a sort of holy elemental magic in a few RPGs that aren’t Christian-centric. The cross is also a fashion accessory for goths.

I’ve dabbled a bit in semiotics as a language studies major. Assertions and false comparisons like yours are just flat out ridiculous. You might as well say that the swastika is the universal symbol of Nazism but don’t let the Buddhists and Hindus tell you otherwise.

In fantasy, magic is simply a super power that is part of a certain group’s natural functions.
In reality, magic involves having a different religion and a different world-view.

The former is the equivalent to mutant powers in science-fiction. The latter is simply the religion of hippies and tree-huggers. They are far from being the same.
As I said before. The devil doesn’t walk around with horns and a pitch fork but when he is represented as such it is merly to symbolize non material aspects in a material way.
Sorry but the Church does not specify a nice long list of what represents the devil and what doesn’t.
Similarly magic in stories like harry potter may be greatly exagerated in its effects but there is some truth in them as these exaggerations “REPRESENT” the intent (whether spiritual or physical) of the will of the witch. The use of the elements: fire, water etc. in Harry Potter are mirror copies of these saame elements use in actual witchcraft.
Riiiight, following your logic superheroes like Iceman, Human Torch, and Storm are witches and wizards because they use the elements. :rolleyes:
To say that they are not real witches since in the book they are a race born with powers called witches is to be disingenuous. The references to actual witchcraft is obvious, to anyone who knows about witchcraft, from the terms, concepts and symbols depicted in the movie.
Using a religion as a cosmological reference is common practice for plenty of fantasy writers. I already mentioned Dante and Tolkien as strong Catholic examples. That doesn’t mean such works glorify their references.

And disingenuous? The very basis of what defines occult is the calling on forces and dabbling with things that are not within the domain of man. Now, if a certain group of people are born in a way that makes them capable of manipulating these forces, then they’re no longer out of man’s domain.
Understand that (as an example) Moses himself did not part the Seas himself. Rather he depended upon the power of God to do so. So to do witches (whether knowingly or unknowlingly) conjure spirits of the underworld to effect change in the physical world.
You’ve just highlighted your deliberate ignorance of fantasy magic right here. What you realize is that fantasy wizards/witches DO magic by themselves. It’s an inherent ability. They do not call upon gods or demons. They manipulate magic purely through mind power and force of will.
Let me tell you: after the first movie made its debut there was an explosion of witchcraft and wiccan literature in my local bookstores.
Classic logical fallacy. Correlation does not imply causation.
I would be very careful about how I say what I say about any Catholic priest friend. I caution you to be careful because rebellion is born of the devil and slander against a man of God is a sin.
I didn’t say it. It was long been in the news. News is news. You don’t like it? Not my problem.
Saying he is making bare assertions is based on what? Do you have evidence that he is not speaking from a position of authority and knowledge on such matters or are you just hoping he is wrong so you don’t have to feel guilty about loving the H.Potter series?
Has he studied literature? Has he ever written fantasy himself? Does he even know his basic mythology? If you can give me proof that he has knowledge on fantasy fiction/literature to speak on it, I’d be happy to listen. Till then, every time you mention him will be nothing more than an empty appeal to authority.
So because the concept is slightly modified (witches are born witches instead of taught witchcraft) the concept of the movie does not represent that of witchcraft?
Obviously you are ignorant of the implications found within the difference of being born with something and having it taught to you.

Here’s a hint: You can’t choose what you’re born with.
I am not referring to slight of hand and trickery. The magic in Harry Potter is obviously not mean to illustrate trickery but is meant to speak to a supernatural use of power not born of God. And if it is supernatural and not of God I wonder who it is meant to come from?
You assume it’s not of God? Why not? You assume it is supernatural but is it really? Are you aware that in fantasy, science is virtually non-existent? Magic is simply the substitute. The cosmological laws governing a fantasy universe is clearly far different from our own.
Acceptance of true magic and occultism is so much easier when you have a population conditioned to accept it.
Just because there are dolts out there who can’t tell fiction from reality, doesn’t mean the line between them doesn’t exist.
 
pacinst.com/witch.htm

This person explains how Harry potter is designed.

seekgod.ca/imagination2.htm

and this one should show you the authenticity of the concepts. You can’t just get creative and accidentally incorporate so much reality into a book, that has to be done intentionally
(I’m still searching for that interview btw)

Also
bible.com/bibleanswers_result.php?id=244

This should explain what witchcraft is. (and you’ll see that harry potter magically falls in that category)

For argument sake: lets say (hypothetical) that their is video game about sodomy. The characters pretend sodomize each other. People defend this game by saying “it’s not real sodomy because the characters are fictional, and they are not sodomizing the way that people do in real life”.

Would you find this game suitable to Christians?
If not…
Then why would Harry Potter and Bayonetta be?

all sin is equal, God said (paraphrasing) “Don’t do this junk, and we’ll be cool”

Pretend interactive witchcraft (that imitates the real thing) is just as bad as pretend interactive Sodomy. (I choose this example because God destroyed the city Sodom. If that’s how he feels about that, then how would he feel about any other sin)
 
Are you aware that in fantasy, science is virtually non-existent? Magic is simply the substitute. The cosmological laws governing a fantasy universe is clearly far different from our own.
True, but in those fictions are they screaming to us that they use witchcraft?

Fiction aside…

Bayonetta isn’t depicted using chi powers. The game developers didn’t tell us she is a cyborg using advanced technology.

They tolled us she is a witch, they go through great lengths to illustrate that she is using spells.

They explicitly depict God’s angels to be heartless enemies who want to kill you.

In many comic books, (somebody mentioned Iceman) the abilities the characters have are explained to be science (made up science),

The problem is that Harry Potter and Bayonetta depict sorcery (as was so carefully and explicitly explained in the fictions).
 
The Question is “How is Bayonetta Satanic”

The answer is this:

The game displays sin to be a source of power (we all know witchcraft is condemned)

These condemned acts are dressed up and stylized to be use as tools by the player (promoting these evil arts)

In which case are suppose to be aimed at Angels?!?!

I would compare it to, reading about “the beginning of creation” but the book is told from satan’s perspective. And he tells you how bad God is, and that he didn’t create everything, and that you should align your self with him to fight God.

Of course such a book would be fiction, but does that make it ok? No! Blasphemy is never ok, whether it’s for real or pretend.

The views and story ark the game portrays is direct contradiction of the Holy Bible.

Now who would want to contradict any of the bibles teaching? I can name 1 fallen angel who could be suspect.
 
But it still depicts some form of witchcraft, and has sensationalized it. That’s what’s bad.

I never met a single wicca until half a year into the sires of Harry Potter. the wicca soon out numbered Christians (Catholic and Protestant combined) in my classrooms.

pacinst.com/witch.htm

This person explains how Harry potter is designed.

seekgod.ca/imagination2.htm

and this one should show you the authenticity of the concepts. You can’t just get creative and accidentally incorporate so much reality into a book, that has to be done intentionally
(I’m still searching for that interview btw)

Also
bible.com/bibleanswers_result.php?id=244

This should explain what witchcraft is. (and you’ll see that harry potter magically falls in that category)
 
I don’t agree with magic period, but in Narnia the Witch is a villain (as it is true in real life)

These other media say the opposite, “witches can be good, witchcraft can be good”

That is not ok.

that’s like saying “the Devil is just misunderstood, and he can be good if you give him a chance”

Who cares if it’s a fiction that somebody wrote, it is saying that the bible is wrong!

dude, that’s not good.
 
i believe that any hero of mjne should not practice and glorify acts forbidden by the church. if aslan does unrepentntly practice any form of divination i can’t support tht with a lear conscience. i dont care who calls it catholic so long as i am not compelled to accept it as such by the Holy Father.

All this to say that if what is forbidden by the church in practice is dressed up nicely in litrature no harm can come of it. a half truth is still a lie and harry potter magic represnts real magic whether the fans like it or not.
 
These other media say the opposite, “witches can be good, witchcraft can be good”

That is not ok.

that’s like saying “the Devil is just misunderstood, and he can be good if you give him a chance”

Who cares if it’s a fiction that somebody wrote, it is saying that the bible is wrong!

.
This is the point the hp fans refuse to see. da vinci code too is fiction yes. then why do we think it is dangerous.
 
Bayonetta isn’t depicted using chi powers. The game developers didn’t tell us she is a cyborg using advanced technology.

They tolled us she is a witch, they go through great lengths to illustrate that she is using spells.
Chi powers don’t launch blue fireballs and enable you to wall jump either. That’s my point. Magic in fiction is not the same as magic in real life.
They explicitly depict God’s angels to be heartless enemies who want to kill you.
It’s a fictional universe. Get over it.
In many comic books, (somebody mentioned Iceman) the abilities the characters have are explained to be science (made up science),

The problem is that Harry Potter and Bayonetta depict sorcery (as was so carefully and explicitly explained in the fictions).
I’ve already said in fantasy, magic is simply a substitute for science. Their laws and theories of magic in their world have the same status as the laws and theories of science in ours.
Pretend interactive witchcraft (that imitates the real thing) is just as bad as pretend interactive Sodomy. (I choose this example because God destroyed the city Sodom. If that’s how he feels about that, then how would he feel about any other sin)
False comparison. The condemnation of sodomy and other sexual sins is based on how they reduce your mind into a sexually depraved animal. Therefore, be it fictional or not, you’d still be putting you mind into the same sex-crazed mindset. Furthermore, I can’t say how you can make pretend sodomy different from the real act.

On the other hand, your comparison ignores the strong difference between real life sorcery and fictional fantasy magic.

Real life ‘sorcery’ is nothing more than New Age, neo-pagan nonsense with its practitioners doing nothing but going around in circles of obscure rituals in the hopes of gaining prosperity in their lives.

Fantasy magic on the other hand is simply my fictional self-insert cooping himself in a magical library and learning combat spell after combat spell in preparation for his first magic tournament. It’s no different from martial arts fighters learning new moves and techniques. Any power I imagine myself to use is entirely my own.
 
All this to say that if what is forbidden by the church in practice is dressed up nicely in litrature no harm can come of it. a half truth is still a lie and harry potter magic represnts real magic whether the fans like it or not.
The Church doesn’t declare war on fantasy magic lest Tolkien would have been excommunicated. Fantasy magic will never be the same as the real occult whether anti-Fantasy naysayers like it or not.
 
I am aware of the borrowed myths used in these stories, I don’t have any problem with the odd creatures in HP. Because the Bible does not condemn mythical creatures. But it does condemn witchcraft.

My examples are only to illustrate the situation.

Putting fiber in your brownies doesn’t do anything for your heath if it’s laced with gasoline.

We are accept too much poison from Satan, because he sugarcoats it so well, and provides us with the most reasonable evidence, explained so logically that our minds
are so willing to accept it, it’s like candy to us.

tldm.org/News14/GamingVideosGlorifySatanMockCatholicChurch.htm

It comes down to a few simple facts of truth:
  • Harry Potter, Bayonetta (and so many others) use a fictionalized version of Witchcraft
  • The fiction tells us that in their universe witchcraft can be used for good
  • That contradicts the bible. They wrote a universe, where Witchcraft is a good thing.
  • Witchcraft is condemned
  • God doesn’t like it
  • The Bible says it’s evil
All those statements are true. Now lets use logic to interpenetrate the meaning.

If Witchcraft is bad, and Bayonetta and HP use a pretend version and call it good.
Then, those media are saying pretend bad, is good.

Or

If pretend witchcraft is good, and the bible is incorrect about witchcraft.
Then How can we trust anything the bible says, if told us wrong about witchcraft?

Now a question.

Is Harry Potter of God, is Bayonetta of God?
Would Jesus recommend you read these books, and play these games that use a pretend version of something that is condemned?

Would Jesus recommend it?

If it’s not of God, then it can only be one other source, Satan.
 
We are accept too much poison from Satan, because he sugarcoats it so well, and provides us with the most reasonable evidence, explained so logically that our minds
are so willing to accept it, it’s like candy to us.
There’s a fine line between making a black widow out of candy and sugarcoating a real poisonous spider.
The site is garbage and promotes rejected apparitions. Somebody call the mods.
It comes down to a few simple facts of truth:
  • Harry Potter, Bayonetta (and so many others) use a fictionalized version of Witchcraft
  • The fiction tells us that in their universe witchcraft can be used for good
  • That contradicts the bible. They wrote a universe, where Witchcraft is a good thing.
Where does it say that it is against God to make a world where witchcraft is different from this reality? It’s not in our Catechism for one thing.
  • Witchcraft is condemned
  • God doesn’t like it
  • The Bible says it’s evil
All those statements are true. Now lets use logic to interpenetrate the meaning.

If Witchcraft is bad, and Bayonetta and HP use a pretend version and call it good.
Then, those media are saying pretend bad, is good.
There’s a big, gaping hole in your logic that you anti-fantasy folks just don’t have the intellectual honesty to face.

Pretend Witchcraft =/= Real Witchcraft
Now a question.

Is Harry Potter of God, is Bayonetta of God?
Would Jesus recommend you read these books, and play these games that use a pretend version of something that is condemned?
Jesus may not be a master story teller but He did use quite a number of unorthodox literary devices in His time. Making a good guy out of a Samaritan was one big one.

In short, my answer would be: Yes
 
There’s a big, gaping hole in your logic that you anti-fantasy folks just don’t have the intellectual honesty to face.
There is no need for insults, I’m only here because I want to help.

You have to understand, I believe that Satan is using these outlets and deceiving people.
When I see fellow Christians go into (what I have reason to believe is) a trap. My heart goes out to them, and I just want to tell them “Look out”

I don’t mean for us to get angry at one another, I’m sorry. You don’t believe there is any danger, but I do. I’ll jump in front of a car for you because I think your in danger, but you might know that the car is made of cardboard (making my epic dive…a bit silly)

But please don’t misunderstand me diving and tackling you to be of ill intent. I’m under the impression that a car is coming at us.
 
There is no need for insults, I’m only here because I want to help.
That wasn’t an insult. That was a fact.
You have to understand, I believe that Satan is using these outlets and deceiving people.
When I see fellow Christians go into (what I have reason to believe is) a trap. My heart goes out to them, and I just want to tell them “Look out”
Yet when it’s not a trap (and I have reason to believe it’s not), your story becomes The Boy Who Cried Wolf.
I don’t mean for us to get angry at one another, I’m sorry. You don’t believe there is any danger, but I do. I’ll jump in front of a car for you because I think your in danger, but you might know that the car is made of cardboard (making my epic dive…a bit silly)
The problem is the car isn’t made of cardboard, making your so-called ‘epic dive’ seem… suicidal.
But please don’t misunderstand me diving and tackling you to be of ill intent. I’m under the impression that a car is coming at us.
Then you need glasses.
 
This is from the Catechism:

IN BRIEF

2504
“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor” (Ex 20:16). Christ’s disciples have “put on the new man, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness” (Eph 4:24).

2505
Truth or truthfulness is the virtue which consists in showing oneself true in deeds and truthful in words, and guarding against duplicity, dissimulation, and hypocrisy.

2506
The Christian is not to “be ashamed of testifying to our Lord” (2 Tim 1:8) in deed and word. Martyrdom is the supreme witness given to the truth of the faith.

2507
Respect for the reputation and honor of persons forbids all detraction and calumny in word or attitude.

2508
Lying consists in saying what is false with the intention of deceiving one’s neighbor.

2509
An offense committed against the truth requires reparation.

2510
The golden rule helps one discern, in concrete situations, whether or not it would be appropriate to reveal the truth to someone who asks for it.

2511
“The sacramental seal is inviolable” (CIC, can. 983 § 1). Professional secrets must be kept. Confidences prejudicial to another are not to be divulged.

2512
Society has a right to information based on truth, freedom, and justice. One should practice moderation and discipline in the use of the social communications media.

2513
The fine arts, but above all sacred art, “of their nature are directed toward expressing in some way the infinite beauty of God in works made by human hands. Their dedication to the increase of God’s praise and of his glory is more complete, the more exclusively they are devoted to turning men’s minds devoutly toward God” (SC 122).

Harry Potter and Bayonetta encourage a lie about witchcraft being good
Doesn’t matter if it’s not real witchcraft, they call it witchcraft in the fiction, and in the fiction witchcraft is good. That’s the problem, do you know how many people in my schools became “white witches” once they saw that sorcery is good if you make it good.

I mentioned before, that wicca out numbered the Christians in my classes. If they knew, the truth, then they wouldn’t have converted. But they don’t, and how can they when HP and Bayonetta won’t tell them.

People believe the fiction, they believe that witchcraft is good, just like the fantasy witchcraft is.
 
None of your Catechism quotes justify your stance.
Doesn’t matter if it’s not real witchcraft, they call it witchcraft in the fiction, and in the fiction witchcraft is good. That’s the problem, do you know how many people in my schools became “white witches” once they saw that sorcery is good if you make it good.
Yes it does matter. That’s the problem and your insistence on ignoring the crucial difference between fantasy and reality is only contributing to that (not to mention many other causes of clear-cut insanity).

If someone ever came to me with the premise of using fantasy as a way to lure me into actual occult, I would laugh in that person’s face. After that, I’d say “Dude, I dream about wielding elemental powers to wipe out monsters by the mob. I don’t dream about singing and walking in a circle with a bunch of other guys in robes.”
I mentioned before, that wicca out numbered the Christians in my classes. If they knew, the truth, then they wouldn’t have converted. But they don’t, and how can they when HP and Bayonetta won’t tell them.

People believe the fiction, they believe that witchcraft is good, just like the fantasy witchcraft is.
You give me dolts who changed religions because they couldn’t tell fact from fiction and I can give you plenty other people who didn’t. Heck, you can see in this thread alone that there are at least three Catholics (and I can name you more) who enjoy fantasy and aren’t about to start worshiping trees.
 
evangelicaloutreach.org/angels.htm

*"They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty. (Rev 16:14)

Again, demons can produce miracles! See our other article entitled, Miracles – Two Sources. Not all spirits are from God. Some spirits are deceitful and are trying to mislead us:
Code:
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. (1 Tim 4:1)
There are many ways in which demons can deceive people, but the more common ones are through occult involvement, Ouija boards and seances. Dear reader, don’t ever dabble with such, even out of curiosity or amusement. If you have already, ask God to forgive you and renounce all such behavior."*

How is this relevant? Easy.

If HP doesn’t have any association with real witchcraft, then why have they produce Tarot Cards?
wizardandwitch.com/wizards-tarot/

Well it could be that this real witchcraft element, some how made its way into this fantasy story, it is part of franchise anyhow.
harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Cartomancy

But if HP is only fantasy, then why is our real world Divination involved in it?
 
None of your Catechism quotes justify your stance
Yes they do (not all)
I’m talking about the obstruction of the truth, and how that it is wrong.

I tell some 9 year old that sorcery is of satan, and he goes “but Harry Potter is a good guy! that can’t be true”

(that was a dumb argument I had with a cousin of mine)
 
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