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Edward_H
Guest
I’d ask “how’s the family doing; let’s grab a beer and and catchup”. I really would.
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karmascar
Guest
i’d say it’s not what perfection or anything is for me, but what Christ and the Word says a thing is, is more important. What i think is irrelevant. If i make my own standard, i will lower the bar to a point that i know i can make. I will move the goal line so i win, and i don’t have to feel bad ever. That’s not what Christ meant.
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karmascar
Guest
I like and appreciate your response. It raises some great points.
The “root” of the problem i’m trying to get my head around is why we need salvation, and why it is that what we do/did cause us to need salvation. Why does sin entail eternity in hell? Can you help me with that? I’ve heard different explanations and i haven’t found one that has adequately resolved it for me. “It’s because sin is an insult to God!” ok so why doesn’t God “grow up” (forgive my hypothetical here) and not let himself get bothered by us lowly worm creatures not being able to or not willing to choose right over wrong? etc.
have you heard or do you know of a really good explanation for why without Christ, we’re all damned?
thanks
The “root” of the problem i’m trying to get my head around is why we need salvation, and why it is that what we do/did cause us to need salvation. Why does sin entail eternity in hell? Can you help me with that? I’ve heard different explanations and i haven’t found one that has adequately resolved it for me. “It’s because sin is an insult to God!” ok so why doesn’t God “grow up” (forgive my hypothetical here) and not let himself get bothered by us lowly worm creatures not being able to or not willing to choose right over wrong? etc.
have you heard or do you know of a really good explanation for why without Christ, we’re all damned?
thanks
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karmascar
Guest
forgive me here, but Why is it that the wages of sin are death? And what does having puzzle pieces missing have to do with being in heaven vs hell and the need for christ?
thanks
thanks
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karmascar
Guest
I have heard this argument as well, and i struggle with it because God allows Satan/Lucifer/whatever his name is, into his presence when they discuss the tempting of Job. So my brain is like “if what you said here is true, why isn’t it true there?” I might be missing some information…
also - i don’t think salvation is unfair, i was arguing that on face value it seemed like the punishment of damnation outweighed the crime of sin (for the obvious non-mortal sins ).
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karmascar
Guest
thanks for taking the time to respond. i’m trying to puzzle this out in my brain, and it just doesn’t seem clear to me why sin makes us go to hell.
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karmascar
Guest
thanks for the response. i have faith and hope and am growing in love for god and neighbor, my heart is that i want to be able to “share the good news” but i am not able to because i don’t understand it, lol. The good news is christ has come yay! but why? to save us from our sins! why do we need saving from our sins? uh… because if not saved we’ll go to hell! why? …draws a blank*
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karmascar
Guest
that part is already assumed
my wife for one, is an unbeliever, so yeah, we’re on a familiar, care-about-your-life, basis already.
my wife for one, is an unbeliever, so yeah, we’re on a familiar, care-about-your-life, basis already.
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Lea101
Guest
Well, sin would be a rejection of God (it gets more complicated than this, it involves your culpability etc). Why would God make someone stay with him forever if that person doesn’t want to?
Eg a guy is constantly chasing this girl but she constantly rejects him. If the guy truly loves her, he’ll let her go.
We need to repent before we go to heaven. If you’re not repenting, it basically means that you don’t want God. Part of the good news is that God wants you to know how much he loves you so that you will love him too, which gets you to heaven.
Eg a guy is constantly chasing this girl but she constantly rejects him. If the guy truly loves her, he’ll let her go.
We need to repent before we go to heaven. If you’re not repenting, it basically means that you don’t want God. Part of the good news is that God wants you to know how much he loves you so that you will love him too, which gets you to heaven.
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OsculeturMeOsculo
Guest
It is because souls choose to reject God with their own free will and all the graces that He tries to lavish on them especially at the hour of death. Since they do not want to be with God, they are unable to be in Heaven so instead they are away from Him with the devil’s who also rejected God.
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joeybaggz
Guest
Genesis tells us that we are made in the image and likeness of God. We were created to be with Him for all time. Man rejects God through rejecting the nature we were created in and in rejecting that divine image and likeness, we reject Him. If we say to God, we want to be with you and to live in Your love and Law, we simply achieve that which is ours by the will of God. If we willfully reject God by living outside His Law, we lose that birthright. God is a God of perfect justice. If we ask to live in a world without Him, we get what we ask for, living in a world without Him, now and in the life to come. Pretty simple.
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jochoa
Guest
Hello karmascar,
First, in response to your initial “question” of “the “Good News” of Christ’s salvific/redemptive sacrifice doesn’t really mean anything if a person doesn’t believe they deserve the punishment from which Christ has saved us.”
Because this is not a question, rather the declaration of a state of being, if you find yourself attempting to, in essence, “force” meaning onto somebody’s firm beliefs, you should stop. Let them be, and instead, turn your focus to someone who is open to consideration. Christ serves those wanting the help of a physician.
“what’s the mark that we’re missing?”
Perfection at patience and kindness, which yields the community of unbreakable peace with limitless joy.
“How can we be expected to live up to a standard of perfection, since it’s impossible, we all fail,”
You have a false conclusion, it is not impossible, even though we fail. With God there is Mercy, reconciliation, repentance, salvation and redemption. He can expect us to live up to perfection because (1) he demonstrated perfection in his passion and crucifixion (always being patient and kind for God, even in the face of unjust cruelty to the point of death), and (2) because his perfect creation who never sinned, Mother Mary, lived this perfection of patience and kindness, and (3) because he has given us other leaders who are also perfectly created as we are, who sinned, and reconciled to union with him, aka the Saints. we now have the leadership of the uncreated and created, both sinless and sinful, living/loving perfectly.
In conclusion the “Bad News” is that perfection is impossible, however the “Good News” is that perfection is possible for all.
If you are still of the mindset that perfection is impossible, what is keeping you from accepting the reality that perfection is possible?
Thank you for sharing the questions and taking the time to consider my thoughts. I look forward to considering your response and may you have a perfectly patient and kind day!
First, in response to your initial “question” of “the “Good News” of Christ’s salvific/redemptive sacrifice doesn’t really mean anything if a person doesn’t believe they deserve the punishment from which Christ has saved us.”
Because this is not a question, rather the declaration of a state of being, if you find yourself attempting to, in essence, “force” meaning onto somebody’s firm beliefs, you should stop. Let them be, and instead, turn your focus to someone who is open to consideration. Christ serves those wanting the help of a physician.
“what’s the mark that we’re missing?”
Perfection at patience and kindness, which yields the community of unbreakable peace with limitless joy.
“How can we be expected to live up to a standard of perfection, since it’s impossible, we all fail,”
You have a false conclusion, it is not impossible, even though we fail. With God there is Mercy, reconciliation, repentance, salvation and redemption. He can expect us to live up to perfection because (1) he demonstrated perfection in his passion and crucifixion (always being patient and kind for God, even in the face of unjust cruelty to the point of death), and (2) because his perfect creation who never sinned, Mother Mary, lived this perfection of patience and kindness, and (3) because he has given us other leaders who are also perfectly created as we are, who sinned, and reconciled to union with him, aka the Saints. we now have the leadership of the uncreated and created, both sinless and sinful, living/loving perfectly.
In conclusion the “Bad News” is that perfection is impossible, however the “Good News” is that perfection is possible for all.
If you are still of the mindset that perfection is impossible, what is keeping you from accepting the reality that perfection is possible?
Thank you for sharing the questions and taking the time to consider my thoughts. I look forward to considering your response and may you have a perfectly patient and kind day!
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jochoa
Guest
Because sin is acting contrary to God’s laws of love, and God’s laws of love maintain/attain life, the consequence of acting against life causes death.
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Reuben_J
Guest
No problem. Thanks for asking.
As for going to hell. Basically hell is a separation/absence with/of God.
It is important that we must be with God. Christian belief is that deep within us, we long to be with our Creator, our God. Just like we long to be with our parents. There is this longing in us, and so too is our souls, there is a longing in our souls for our Creator.
So to want to be in heaven therefore is to want to be with our God, our Creator.
Hell is a place, or a state, where sins abound and therefore there is no God’s presence. Sins and God do not co-exist.
This is probably a problem with people who question why there should be hell or sins, but that’s another topic.
But since you ask why God is offended with sins - perhaps we can look into what sins are. The Ten Commandments are rough guide of what they are.
Basically sins are those that are against God and against humans. Conversely if we love God, we would love human; and if we hate a God, we would hate humans as well. That pretty much demonstrates as to what love and sins are respectively.
Hope that helps. … Hell/sins are antithesis of God and therefore God cannot dwell in them. Thus the presence of hell. It is not so much a matter of God being insulted rather than our choice.
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Seagull
Guest
But you have to admit - his word ( for good or for evil ) does manifest itself in a person’s life.
Faith - by actions - that sort of thing.
Rev 3:15 I know thy works,
that thou art neither cold nor hot:
I would thou wert cold or hot.
So then - because thou art lukewarm,
and neither cold nor hot,
I will spue thee out of my mouth.
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JanSobieskiIII
Guest
Fair and just are not synonyms.
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Vico
Guest
Heaven is the state of those that love God. We do not change our minds on that after death. Before the Resurrection of Christ, just and unjust souls were held in Hades. Christ is the source of eternal salvation because he merited justification for us. The original justice was lost. Something greater has come of it though.
Catechism
Harrowing of Hell:
Warren, K.M. (1910). Harrowing of Hell. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07143d.htm
Catechism
This is part of the Trinity Prayer: “Father, you sent your Word to bring us truth and your Spirit to make us holy. Through them we come to know the mystery of your life.”
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karmascar
Guest
ok, i’m with you, but i just don’t get why we’re damned (because of our sins) without grace/mercy/christ’s salvific sacrifice?
Even if he’s not asking us to do the impossible, if we achieve eternal damnation because he makes demands (you could say he makes suggestions or recommendations, but it’s the same in the end), and we don’t follow them/give in/concede/listen/obey - why must that be so? I’m thinking here from the perspective of the unbeliever who’s likely to respond “So what if i don’t want to go to church or give $ away or pray? why should (adding emphasis here because this is what they say) *god damn me to hell if i don’t do what he tells me? doesn’t seem like a nice god to me, why would anyone worship a god who makes all these demands?” See what i mean? I don’t know how to share the good news with people and these are stumbling blocks i have come to.
Even if he’s not asking us to do the impossible, if we achieve eternal damnation because he makes demands (you could say he makes suggestions or recommendations, but it’s the same in the end), and we don’t follow them/give in/concede/listen/obey - why must that be so? I’m thinking here from the perspective of the unbeliever who’s likely to respond “So what if i don’t want to go to church or give $ away or pray? why should (adding emphasis here because this is what they say) *god damn me to hell if i don’t do what he tells me? doesn’t seem like a nice god to me, why would anyone worship a god who makes all these demands?” See what i mean? I don’t know how to share the good news with people and these are stumbling blocks i have come to.
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Dan_Defender
Guest
Your soul was created by God, so it is natural to return to your Creator, that is why.
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PennyinCanada
Guest
“Ok, so here’s my question, the “Good News” of Christ’s salvific/redemptive sacrifice doesn’t really mean anything if a person doesn’t believe they deserve the punishment from which Christ has saved us.”
If you are talking to a non-believer, you don’t start there. You have to come up with a strategy and generally, trying to convince a non-believer that they are a sinner will get their hackles up.
I don’t look at it the way you presented. I see that God is NOT fair in that we do so very very little and get to spend eternity, for ever and ever, in heaven, where there is no pain or sorrow. After a thousand years in heaven, I will be able to say “This is just the start!” How is that fair? It isn’t. In worldly standards, it’s like showing up for work for one day, working poorly, taking a bunch of long breaks, checking our emails etc, and then paid 10 million dollars at the end of it. That’s the kind of generosity that God extends to us.
If you are talking to a non-believer, you don’t start there. You have to come up with a strategy and generally, trying to convince a non-believer that they are a sinner will get their hackles up.
I don’t look at it the way you presented. I see that God is NOT fair in that we do so very very little and get to spend eternity, for ever and ever, in heaven, where there is no pain or sorrow. After a thousand years in heaven, I will be able to say “This is just the start!” How is that fair? It isn’t. In worldly standards, it’s like showing up for work for one day, working poorly, taking a bunch of long breaks, checking our emails etc, and then paid 10 million dollars at the end of it. That’s the kind of generosity that God extends to us.
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