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Counterpoint
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So, God created us with the desire to usurp him? Or, did this desire just spring out of nowhere?
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tonyrey
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The pure monotheism and the Decalogue of Judaism stood out in stark contrast to the polytheism and immoral practices of other tribes. The concept of “He Who Is” reveals profound insight into the nature of God. It was the false interpretation of natural disasters as forms of divine punishment that was corrected by Jesus when He quoted Hosea:
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tonyrey
Guest
God created us with the power to choose whether to live for others or for ourselves…
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Counterpoint
Guest
I believe in universal reconciliation because I believe in an all-loving God.
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ngill09
Guest
Here’s a guy who doesn’t know his history of Judaism.
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fhansen
Guest
No, He created us with the freedom to usurp Him. But the catechism has this to add:
**302 Creation has its own goodness and proper perfection, but it did not spring forth complete from the hands of the Creator. The universe was created “in a state of journeying” (in statu viae) toward an ultimate perfection yet to be attained, to which God has destined it. We call “divine providence” the dispositions by which God guides his creation toward this perfection:
By his providence God protects and governs all things which he has made, “reaching mightily from one end of the earth to the other, and ordering all things well”. For “all are open and laid bare to his eyes”, even those things which are yet to come into existence through the free action of creatures.
310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it? With infinite power God could always create something better. But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world “in a state of journeying” towards its ultimate perfection. In God’s plan this process of becoming involves the appearance of certain beings and the disappearance of others, the existence of the more perfect alongside the less perfect, both constructive and destructive forces of nature. With physical good there exists also physical evil as long as creation has not reached perfection.**
In His wisdom God apparently wants us to struggle to gain the wisdom that, perhaps, perfects His creation. A being who has come to* will* rightly by experiencing a world filled with wrongly ordered wills, who experiences-or *knows-*both good and evil and ultimately comes to choose the good alone, who’s been tested and refined, is perhaps a greater being than one who’s merely designed to always choose good.
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Iron_Donkey
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No, you are changing words.
We may resist God’s will because it is God’s will that we be able to.
(And even that is saying it poorly with a focus on a lesser truth. It would be better to say that we God desires that we choose good freely, and makes that possible.)
This is not the same as saying that it is God’s will that we do. It is God’s will that we are able to. Completely different thing. The problem with your argument, and most arguments like it, is that you are ignoring the “free” part of " free will." We can will whatever we want, because our wills our free. Our wills are free because God wishes them to be. This includes the possibility of willing evil.
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ericc
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In 2 Peter 3:9, you have used the word “willing” as an expression of not able to counteract God’ will. However, some bible translations ASV, RSV, ESV etc instead uses words like “wishing”, “desiring” and not as an expression of God’s will as used in the context of Romans 9:19. If one would to choose the alternative explanations, then it is not a contradiction between God wishing, desiring all to be saved and resisting his will. If you read Greek, perhaps you can enlighten us what the original text meant or ought to be in English. I noticed the older Bibles ie KJV and Douay Rheims tend towards “willing” whereas more modern translations used the wishing/desiring translation. Perhaps choice of words reflect usage of words in different centuries.
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tonyrey
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An unsubstantiated assertion which is not only worthless and discourteous but an infringement of the forum rules…
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tonyrey
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Love entails respect for another person’s choices and decisions even if they are misguided.
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zxcc
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a happy mistake, the one single most fortunate sin.
not for which we wouldve been consigned to paradise.
but instead our Lord came and became Man, sacrificed-
and through Him, forever brought us intimately into the holy trinity.
AMEN
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Amen, And here we are, all blessing. Can’t imagine how it can viewed otherwise?
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CHRISTINE77
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I agree. And you need to read the next sentence too.
2 Peter 3.9 NIV The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed but wants everyone to repent. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as unexpectedly as a thief. Then the heavens will pass away with a terrible noise and the very elements themselves will disappear in fire, and the earth and everything on it will be found to deserve judgment.
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DanAl
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1-God does not want that any should perish
2- No one can resist his will.
3- It is possible that some of us will perish.
Maybe universalism is true and no human will perish.
Put the above statement aside and assume that people will perish. Is there a contradiction? No, just because one does not desire something to happen it does not follow that he will take steps to stop it, especially if he has some reason for not intervening.
I might not want to undergo a painful surgery, and I can avoid undergoing the surgery. But I might still go to the operation table because it will be good for me in the end.
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chefmomster2
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Difficult to understand does not mean inherently self-contradictory. And contradictory does not mean fallible.
Matthew 20:16 "Thus, the last will be first, and the first will be last.”
Luke 22:26 "He said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them and those in authority over them are addressed as ‘Benefactors’; 26 but among you it shall not be so. Rather, let the greatest among you be as the youngest, and the leader as the servant.
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chefmomster2
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There is another option. The Bible is absolutely truthful and divinely inspired, but not literal or without such mistakes in detail as naming one lake in one Gospel, but another in a second. (This is the sort of minor human error we are all familiar with.) This sort of thing is NOT what is meant by infallible. Infallible means that we hold the beliefs and the doctrine of the scriptures to be inerrant.
The Old Testament is SO much more than that! It is the revelation by God to His people that He had a plan for our salvation from the sin of Adam and His promise to remain faithful.
Bad luck? Years of slavery, many more in exile, constant warfare and persecution? There are many historical facts, but its value to us is definitely not its historicity. Most of this is due to the fact that the books of the Bible are from many different genre and make use of dozens of literary devices. There are poems, songs, lists, dramas, storytelling, wordplay, prophecy, prayer, and others.
CCC 121 The Old Testament is an indispensable part of Sacred Scripture. Its books are divinely inspired and retain a permanent value,92 for the Old Covenant has never been revoked.
122 Indeed, "the economy of the Old Testament was deliberately SO oriented that it should prepare for and declare in prophecy the coming of Christ, redeemer of all men."93 "Even though they contain matters imperfect and provisional,94 The books of the OldTestament bear witness to the whole divine pedagogy of God’s saving love: these writings "are a storehouse of sublime teaching on God and of sound wisdom on human life, as well as a wonderful treasury of prayers; in them, too, the mystery of our salvation is present in a hidden way."95
Certainly, but not to the exclusion of the rest of the Bible.
This does not mean they are not full of truth. When we study the overarching themes of the Bible and those of the individual book we can find the explanation for these areas. If you have some specific examples you need help with, posting them in another post may help you to better understand.
Many of the books aren’t by the accredited author. If Moses actually wrote the Pentateuch it would mean that he died and then after his death he described his own passing! The names of the authors are also not to be taken as fact. The themes, teachings, and doctrines are the main point and it is in those things that we find the infallible Divine Revelation of God.
Absolutely true! That’s why as Catholics we are told to read the bible skeptically. NOT skeptical of the revelation, but skeptical of our own ability to independently interpret it. Scholars have worked for ages on it and most if it don’t have the background to do what they do. They are men and women who are experts in Middle Eastern culture, ancient languages, ancient manuscripts, Church history, Middle Eastern history, theology, archeology, and many more.
Absolutely! The verses must always be interpreted in the context of many factors including the time of the actual event, the time it was written down, the situation that was being addressed including any cultural factors, the genre, and the purpose of the author. Probably many more! It is easy for anyone to sling bible verses around. But, as you said, it is silly!
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chefmomster2
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You have certainly chosen a single verse. out of context, that appears to support your view. The fact that you can do so in no way proves your statement. This is the teaching if the Catholic Church based on the entirety of scripture and tradition.
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310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it? With infinite power God could always create something better.174 But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world “in a state of journeying” towards its ultimate perfection. In God’s plan this process of becoming involves the appearance of certain beings and the disappearance of others, the existence of the more perfect alongside the less perfect, both constructive and destructive forces of nature. With physical good there exists also physical evil as long as creation has not reached perfection.175
311 Angels and men, as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey toward their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love. They can therefore go astray. Indeed, they have sinned. Thus has moral evil, incommensurably more harmful than physical evil, entered the world. **God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil.**176 He permits it, however, because he respects the freedom of his creatures and, mysteriously, knows how to derive good from it:
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Richca
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The Scripture also says:
God in the beginning created human beings
and made them subject to their own free choice…
Set before you are fire and water;
to whatever you choose, stretch out your hand.
Before everyone are life and death,
whichever they choose will be given them." (Sirach 15: 14-17).
People perish of their own free choice. God certainly works in us both to will and to do of his good pleasure but He doesn’t work in us to sin.
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ngill09
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How is something absolutely truthful if there are mistakes?
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chefmomster2
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By Truth we mean what is stated here:
From Dei Verbum:
In composing the sacred books, God chose men and while employed by Him (2) they made use of their powers and abilities, so that with Him acting in them and through them, (3) they, as true authors, consigned to writing everything and only those things which He wanted. (4)Therefore, since everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit, it follows that **the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings (5) for the sake of salvation. **Therefore “all Scripture is divinely inspired and has its use for teaching the truth and refuting error, for reformation of manners and discipline in right living, so that the man who belongs to God may be efficient and equipped for good work of every kind” (2 Tim. 3:16-17, Greek text).
Notice that this speaks about truth “for the sake of salvation”. While there are discrepancies from one Gospel to another in the naming of a town, for example, the name of the town is certainly not germane to the “teaching” that is revealed.
The two versions of Noah’s Ark is another example. One appears in Genesis 6:5 thru Genesis 8:22 and the other is in Genesis 6:9 thru Genesis 8:19. These are the instructions to Noah in the first story:
2 Of all the clean beasts, take yourself seven pairs, man and his woman; and of the beasts which are not clean, two, man and his woman.
3 Also of the birds of the heavens seven pairs, male and female, to keep alive seed on the face of the earth.
and the second:
19 And of all the living, of all flesh, you shall bring two to the ark to keep alive with you, they shall be male and female.
20 Of the birds according to their kind, and of the beasts according to their kind, and of all the creeping things of the earth according to their kind, two of each will come to you to keep alive.
Obviously the stories disagree on the number of animals to be carried by the Ark. Yet, this is not a crucial element of the TEACHING of the scripture of the Ark. The teaching emphasizes the tendency of man towards evil, the value of faith and trust in the Lord, and the desire of God to be in a relationship or covenant with us. The number of animals just doesn’t matter.
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