How is it possible that some of us will perish?

[CHRISTINE77]

This is NOT a perfect analogy in any way, but maybe it will help:

Think of God as an NFL official who is also a football commentator for ESPN. It is the end of the season, and the Super Bowl is over. God is giving a report on the season in review.

Since all the games have been played, God knows every score, every play, and the outcome of every down. He knows who caught the ball, and who failed to make a tackle. He can analyze every aspect, or watch it in slow motion. God has knowledge of everything that happened that season.

As an NFL official, God also constructed the rules of the game. He picked the people who would officiate, and used the “instant replay” when necessary to overturn a few bad decisions, in order to make sure that the rules that he set came out the way they were intended.

Now, that said, God did not actually interfere in any of the plays, nor did he play the game for the people. Each coach, and player could have made any decision they chose. In a given situation, a quarterback could have opted to run the ball, make a pass, take a knee, or, heaven forbid, even throw the game. God did not make any of these decisions. He granted the players free will to play however they desired. This, however, does not in any way impact the fact that God still knows what happened, since it’s the end of the season, nor does it change the fact that God provided the rules to the game.

Eternity is a difficult concept, and it works a bit like that. Imagine God sitting at the end of time looking back at everything that has happened and knowing the outcome. He was able to construct rules… a plan… but still give us free will. It is a daunting concept to wrap one’s mind around.

This reminds me of a song:

Sister Wynona Carr - Life Is A Ball Game Lyrics

Life is a ball game
Bein’ played each day
Life is a ball game
Everybody can play

Yes you know, Jesus standing at the home plate
He is waiting for you there
You know, the life is a ball game
But you’ve got to play it fast

The first phase is temptation
You know the second phase is sin
The third phase tribulation
If you pass, you can make it in

Old man Solomon is the umpire
And Satan pitchin’ a game
He’ll do his best, strike you out
He playin’ just the same

You know, Daniel’s up to bat first
You know, he pray three times a day
Yes Satan pitched him a fast ball
But he hit it anyway

Yes you know, Job is up to bat next
Satan’s struck him in every way
But Job hit a home run
And he came on in that day

Yes you know, prayer is a strong bat
To hit at Satan’s ball
And when you start to swing it
You got to give it your all and all

Yes you know, the priest gonna be your catcher
And on him you can depend
Oh Jesus standing at the home plate
And He is waiting for you to come in

Yes you know, Moses is on the sidelines
Waiting to be called
You know, the day he parted the Red Sea
Little price all and all

Then John came in the ninth inning
And the game was almost done
Then God gave John a vision
And he knew we’d already won

Yes you know life is a ball game
Being played each day
You know life is a ball game
Each and everybody can play

Yes you know, Jesus is standing at the home plate
He is waiting for you there
Well you know, life is a ball game
But you’ve got to play it fair

 

[tonyrey]

God doesn’t have the option to not love, yet no one would argue that he is incapable of love.

God is Love! It doesn’t make sense to consider an alternative any more than it makes sense to think the Creator is not the Creator.

I mean I could turn the table and say, "What is God’s love for me worth, it’s not even a conscious decision.

Why not? Aren’t people free to reject God’s love?

" It’s like hearing your dad say,“Son, I love you, but not any more or any less than I love all your friends, all your teachers and everybody i come in contact with”.

To compare the Creator to a creature is no more than a flight of fancy…

 

[ericc]

That is exactly what is is, and in the human world it can be a crime that results in the death penalty. Remember, the Christian God not only has foreknowledge, but had it before he created any of those involved; innocent or guilty. That pretty much excludes true free will, it is more like a playwright…creating a story, developing the characters and then staging it.

You haven’t demonstrate that foreknowledge contradicts freewill though.

 

[tonyrey]

You haven’t demonstrate that foreknowledge contradicts freewill though.

Foreknowledge doesn’t entail compulsion; otherwise we would have far more control over events in the universe!

 

[oldcelt]

You haven’t demonstrate that foreknowledge contradicts freewill though.

That was never my intention. Foreknowledge does bring with it responsibility in a moral system. If you know that evil will befall someone and do nothing, as a human you can be found guilty of some variety of conspiracy or culpability. If this does not apply to the god who intervenes in human affairs, then that god expects more of his creations than himself.
Remember, according to the Church and Scripture, the Abrahamic/Christian God knows everything, about everybody, even before they are born…

newadvent.org/cathen/06612a.htm

 

[Linusthe2nd]

That was never my intention. Foreknowledge does bring with it responsibility in a moral system. If you know that evil will befall someone and do nothing, as a human you can be found guilty of some variety of conspiracy or culpability. If this does not apply to the god who intervenes in human affairs, then that god expects more of his creations than himself.
Remember, according to the Church and Scripture, the Abrahamic/Christian God knows everything, about everybody, even before they are born…

newadvent.org/cathen/06612a.htm

We all suffer, we all die. Your problem is that you want a God after your own concepts. We really have no choice you know. God is who he is whether we like it or not and he is not obliged to conform his will and actions to our parochial whims and notions. So instead of stamping our feet and screaming in a rage, it would be much better if we seek to understand the Good God who made us.

And didn’t he promise to " level every mountain, " to " straighten every road ? " He asks our trust, that’s all. It is part of our Test. He will never ask more than we can bear. That is our imagination working overtime.

Linus2nd

Linus2nd

 

[ericc]

That was never my intention. Foreknowledge does bring with it responsibility in a moral system. If you know that evil will befall someone and do nothing, as a human you can be found guilty of some variety of conspiracy or culpability. If this does not apply to the god who intervenes in human affairs, then that god expects more of his creations than himself.
Remember, according to the Church and Scripture, the Abrahamic/Christian God knows everything, about everybody, even before they are born…

newadvent.org/cathen/06612a.htm

The Evil-freewill-greater good topic has been debated many times by philosophers. I am not a philosopher. However, I know a world where God interject himself each time where someone is going to get hurt is going to be a really weird kind of place. Where laws of nature are never going to operate faithfully. A world of no deaths/pain/suffering due to sickness, old age, accidents, natural disasters, wars, intended harm etc because God is at every instance preventing harm to his people. If you fall accidentally, the hard floor will be miraculously turned soft, the knife you are wielding, slipped and miraculously just before slicing into your hand, the knife edge turned to putty, the airplane that ran a leaked with no fuel somehow does not crash, where a mother deciding to abort her child, the child survives, a murderer’s weapon vanishes, mis-fires when he wanted to kill someone. These and other silly examples could be the end result. I have to defer to God that he know best in designing a world with the right kind of trade-offs.

 

[chefmomster2]

That was never my intention. Foreknowledge does bring with it responsibility in a moral system. If you know that evil will befall someone and do nothing, as a human you can be found guilty of some variety of conspiracy or culpability. If this does not apply to the god who intervenes in human affairs, then that god expects more of his creations than himself.
Remember, according to the Church and Scripture, the Abrahamic/Christian God knows everything, about everybody, even before they are born…

newadvent.org/cathen/06612a.htm

Hello again!

• The foreknowledge of God does not require anything from Him. He IS the Law.
• The foreknowledge of human beings is as you describe.
• Human beings are required to hone their conscience to perfect it, therefore they are held culpable for mistakes such as you describe.
• God does not expect Himself to “hone his conscience to perfection”. He is Perfect.
• You can’t compare the foreknowledge of God to the foreknowledge of humans-as you have insisted in previous posts.

You have brought up this question frequently in many threads. You have asked us to “prove” that foreknowledge is compatible with free will and a Good God. We hold it as a matter if faith and require no “proof” in the same sense as you do. You wish for secular proof, scientific proof, logical proof.

Can you prove your thesis? Can you prove that foreknowledge is absolutely incompatible with free will? We require proof from a scriptural, doctrinal source.

I would wager that you are no more able to prove your thesis true to us than we are able to prove ours to you. We do not start from the same place.

You have faith in a non-interventionist God. Yes, faith. You cannot prove it. What does your faith in this theory rest upon? Positive proof cannot be found merely in denying our faith. That would still leave us with your unproven faith.

We have faith in a scriptural God. We find all the proof we need in God’s revelations.