How is it possible that some of us will perish?

[Counterpoint]

Scripture says that the “Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” 2 Peter 3:9

Moreover, the Scriptures say: “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” Philippians 2:13

Finally, the Scriptures say: “Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his [God’s] will?” Romans 9:19

Question: If God is not willing that any should perish and no one can resist his will, then how is it possible that some of us will perish? (Remember, it is God who works in us “both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”)

 

[ngill09]

Read the rest of Romans 9:

13 As it is written,

“I have loved Jacob,
but I have hated Esau.”
14 What then are we to say? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16 So it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who shows mercy. 17 For the scripture says to Pharaoh, “I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he chooses, and he hardens the heart of whomever he chooses.

God’s Wrath and Mercy

19 You will say to me then, “Why then does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who indeed are you, a human being, to argue with God? Will what is molded say to the one who molds it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one object for special use and another for ordinary use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects of wrath that are made for destruction; 23 and what if he has done so in order to make known the riches of his glory for the objects of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 including us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

It would seem that God has created some people for the purpose of their destruction for his glory.

 

[Counterpoint]

It would seem that God has created some people for the purpose of their destruction for his glory.

Is that what you believe?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Read the rest of Romans 9:

13 As it is written,

“I have loved Jacob,
but I have hated Esau.”
14 What then are we to say? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16 So it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who shows mercy. 17 For the scripture says to Pharaoh, “I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he chooses, and he hardens the heart of whomever he chooses.

God’s Wrath and Mercy

19 You will say to me then, “Why then does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who indeed are you, a human being, to argue with God? Will what is molded say to the one who molds it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one object for special use and another for ordinary use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects of wrath that are made for destruction; 23 and what if he has done so in order to make known the riches of his glory for the objects of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 including us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

It would seem that God has created some people for the purpose of their destruction for his glory.

No, I disagree. Later in that same Roman’s chapter it explains:

“What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works.”

God cares mostly about our faith. If we lose faith we lose God. We can’t just go through the motions. We all have free will. The way we perish is to turn away from God, and thus be forever without him.

 

[Counterpoint]

We all have free will. The way we perish is to turn away from God, and thus be forever without him.

So, you believe (in contradistinction to Romans 9:19) that we can resist God’s will?

 

[Iron_Donkey]

So, you believe (in contradistinction to Romans 9:19) that we can resist God’s will?

There’s will and then there’s will. No one can resist God’s active, causal will. What God decides will happen, happens. But God can will that we be able to will in ways that are not how we should.

This “how we should” is also often called God’s will, but in a different sense than before. In the strong sense, God wills that we actually make meaningful decisions, and God wills that we have the ability to make them correctly. But He does not will that we make them correctly over that that it is we who make them.

So, resist God’s will? Yes, in a sense, but not in a sense that would contradict Romans 9:19.

 

[Pat_Payne]

So, you believe (in contradistinction to Romans 9:19) that we can resist God’s will?

Why not? You only have to look to the front page of the local newspaper to see examples of people resisting God’s will.

He did not make us to be automatons or lock-step slaves. We’re His children. And like all children, we have the freedom to obey or disobey Him. He loves us all all the same, but if a child is hell-bent (pardon the expression) on doing what his or her parent says is bad for them, there’s not a whole lot the parent can do, short of restraining the child physically and removing their free agency for action. God does not want to do that, precisely out of love for us. God could, if he wanted, take control of all our minds and force us to love him. But that wouldn’t be love. Not true love, at least.

 

[Counterpoint]

There’s will and then there’s will. No one can resist God’s active, causal will. What God decides will happen, happens. But God can will that we be able to will in ways that are not how we should.

This “how we should” is also often called God’s will, but in a different sense than before. In the strong sense, God wills that we actually make meaningful decisions, and God wills that we have the ability to make them correctly. But He does not will that we make them correctly over that that it is we who make them.

So, resist God’s will? Yes, in a sense, but not in a sense that would contradict Romans 9:19.

I believe you are attempting to explain the difference between God’ “decretive will” and his “prescriptive will.” We can’t resist God’s decretive will, but we can resist his prescriptive will. And ‘our’ resistance is actually willed by God’s decretive will.

 

[ngill09]

Why not? You only have to look to the front page of the local newspaper to see examples of people resisting God’s will.

He did not make us to be automatons or lock-step slaves. We’re His children. And like all children, we have the freedom to obey or disobey Him. He loves us all all the same, but if a child is hell-bent (pardon the expression) on doing what his or her parent says is bad for them, there’s not a whole lot the parent can do, short of restraining the child physically and removing their free agency for action. God does not want to do that, precisely out of love for us. God could, if he wanted, take control of all our minds and force us to love him. But that wouldn’t be love. Not true love, at least.

Don’t tell that to the Calvinists.

 

[Counterpoint]

Why not? You only have to look to the front page of the local newspaper to see examples of people resisting God’s will.

I have already explained why not. Did you bother to read the original post of this thread?

He did not make us to be automatons or lock-step slaves. We’re His children. And like all children, we have the freedom to obey or disobey Him.

Free will does not really buy you anything here. I explained why it doesn’t in my thread entitled “Free Will, Determinism, Indetrminism, Moral Responsibility, and Salvation.”

 

[John_Martin]

Scripture says that the “Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” 2 Peter 3:9

Moreover, the Scriptures say: “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” Philippians 2:13

Finally, the Scriptures say: “Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his [God’s] will?” Romans 9:19

Question: If God is not willing that any should perish and no one can resist his will, then how is it possible that some of us will perish? (Remember, it is God who works in us “both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”)

The scriptures you quote were written for Catholics and you are reading them as an outsider who is resisting God by not embracing the Church Jesus established, the Kingdom Jesus established, the Pope and Magisterium Jesus established.

The first is for calling Catholics to come to confession when they sin. God saved them when they were baptized and does not wish to lose them to their falling back into sin. He wants their baptism to be fruitful with good works of virtue rather than lost in sin.

The second, also for Catholics, who have been given the virtues (habits of Faith, Hope, Charity, Justice, etc.), have the Holy Spirit and Grace united to their souls, so that it is not by their own ingenuity that they do good, do justice, do piety. But it is by this presence of God that they will and do good, justice, piety. Paul wants the Catholics to know that Grace is substantial (infusion of Virtue) rather than just a feeling of favor in God’s mind toward them. Paul is speaking to those who have been joined to Christ, not to the secular culture of Philippi, not to the general populace, of which you are as a panentheist, but you are called to join us rather than resisting God’s will that you be one with us.

The third is again for Catholics who were also Jews, trying to come to terms with how God would give up on Israel and turn to give Grace to Gentiles. The Jews thought their outward Jewishness gave them pre-emptive position in the eyes of God, but God wanted goodness through and through, and gave that via Jesus, the Holy Spirit with Grace, in the Catholic Church, of which Paul was an Apostle and Bishop. This through and through goodness was a gift, which God refused to give for pay (outward Jewishness). By their rejection of this free gift, the gift was opened to all who would come to Jesus. He finds fault with their “Jewishness”, their supposed “right to God’s blessing”, because he does not want to limit his gift from all people. If you read further on in this Catholic book you quote, you will see Paul’s final joy that the Jews also will be reunited with God, but in the Gift, not in their “right to blessedness”.

The paradox to you outside the Catholic Church, is that you are indeed resisting His will by remaining in your unbelief yet you read in our Bible that it says no one can resist his will. Are you trying to prove our Scriptures false to us? Shall we believe you rather than our Pope, Francis, and Jesus, whose Vicar our Francis is?

John Martin

 

[Robertanthony]

Scripture says that the “Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” 2 Peter 3:9

Moreover, the Scriptures say: “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” Philippians 2:13

Finally, the Scriptures say: “Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his [God’s] will?” Romans 9:19

Question: If God is not willing that any should perish and no one can resist his will, then how is it possible that some of us will perish? (Remember, it is God who works in us “both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”)

I think you make it way too complicated. God wants everybody with him in heaven, he could make it impossible for us not to love him, but he decided not to by giving us free-will. Free-will: do i forgive that person or do i seek revenge, do i sleep in until noon on Saturday, watch porn and/or Jackass (or anything degrading life or human beings) or do I wake up early and volunteer to help the less fortunate? Do I call an escort girl if i feel lonely or do i get an edifying book or pray to God? He wants none to perish, but he’s aware that some will perish. God gave you and me the ability to, ultimately, choose or reject him based on how we live our life. Whenever you read “will”, remember it’s a polysemantic word.

 

[chefmomster2]

The scriptures you quote were written for Catholics and you are reading them as an outsider who is resisting God by not embracing the Church Jesus established, the Kingdom Jesus established, the Pope and Magisterium Jesus established.

The first is for calling Catholics to come to confession when they sin. God saved them when they were baptized and does not wish to lose them to their falling back into sin. He wants their baptism to be fruitful with good works of virtue rather than lost in sin.

The second, also for Catholics, who have been given the virtues (habits of Faith, Hope, Charity, Justice, etc.), have the Holy Spirit and Grace united to their souls, so that it is not by their own ingenuity that they do good, do justice, do piety. But it is by this presence of God that they will and do good, justice, piety. Paul wants the Catholics to know that Grace is substantial (infusion of Virtue) rather than just a feeling of favor in God’s mind toward them. Paul is speaking to those who have been joined to Christ, not to the secular culture of Philippi, not to the general populace, of which you are as a panentheist, but you are called to join us rather than resisting God’s will that you be one with us.

The third is again for Catholics who were also Jews, trying to come to terms with how God would give up on Israel and turn to give Grace to Gentiles. The Jews thought their outward Jewishness gave them pre-emptive position in the eyes of God, but God wanted goodness through and through, and gave that via Jesus, the Holy Spirit with Grace, in the Catholic Church, of which Paul was an Apostle and Bishop. This through and through goodness was a gift, which God refused to give for pay (outward Jewishness). By their rejection of this free gift, the gift was opened to all who would come to Jesus. He finds fault with their “Jewishness”, their supposed “right to God’s blessing”, because he does not want to limit his gift from all people. If you read further on in this Catholic book you quote, you will see Paul’s final joy that the Jews also will be reunited with God, but in the Gift, not in their “right to blessedness”.

The paradox to you outside the Catholic Church, is that you are indeed resisting His will by remaining in your unbelief yet you read in our Bible that it says no one can resist his will. Are you trying to prove our Scriptures false to us? Shall we believe you rather than our Pope, Francis, and Jesus, whose Vicar our Francis is?

John Martin

Superb response!

 

[ngill09]

I think you make it way too complicated. God wants everybody with him in heaven, he could make it impossible for us not to love him, but he decided not to by giving us free-will. Free-will: do i forgive that person or do i seek revenge, do i sleep in until noon on Saturday, watch porn and/or Jackass (or anything degrading life or human beings) or do I wake up early and volunteer to help the less fortunate? Do I call an escort girl if i feel lonely or do i get an edifying book or pray to God? He wants none to perish, but he’s aware that some will perish. God gave you and me the ability to, ultimately, choose or reject him based on how we live our life. Whenever you read “will”, remember it’s a polysemantic word.

What about the people described in Romans 9 who are “made for destruction” like a potter molds clay?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

So, you believe (in contradistinction to Romans 9:19) that we can resist God’s will?

We can’t actually resist it if we are looking for truth and God. However, if we are swayed by Satan’s destructive illusions we can pretend we don’t know and love God. So it’s not exactly free will. It’s free will with the help of that old Father of Lies: Satan.

 

[Counterpoint]

The paradox to you outside the Catholic Church, is that you are indeed resisting His will by remaining in your unbelief yet you read in our Bible that it says no one can resist his will.

So, let me see if I understand you. We can only resist God’s will if it is God’s will that we should resist his will. Does that sound about right? If it isn’t, then you have completely failed to address the question I posed in the original post of this thread.

 

[Counterpoint]

I think you make it way too complicated. God wants everybody with him in heaven, he could make it impossible for us not to love him, but he decided not to by giving us free-will. Free-will: do i forgive that person or do i seek revenge, do i sleep in until noon on Saturday, watch porn and/or Jackass (or anything degrading life or human beings) or do I wake up early and volunteer to help the less fortunate? Do I call an escort girl if i feel lonely or do i get an edifying book or pray to God? He wants none to perish, but he’s aware that some will perish. God gave you and me the ability to, ultimately, choose or reject him based on how we live our life. Whenever you read “will”, remember it’s a polysemantic word.

It does not appear that you read the verses I furnished you in the OP of this thread. Let me recapitulate the main points so that you can better understand the dilemma.

1. It is God’s will that no one should perish.
2. God is working within each of us to carry out his will.
3. It is not possible to resist God’s will.

If all the above hold true, then it should be impossible that anyone should perish. Logic dictates this much.

 

[Counterpoint]

We can’t actually resist it if we are looking for truth and God. However, if we are swayed by Satan’s destructive illusions we can pretend we don’t know and love God. So it’s not exactly free will. It’s free will with the help of that old Father of Lies: Satan.

What?

Paul says it is not possible to resist God’s will. He also argues that God works in each of us to carry out his will. Finally, Peter argues that it is God’s will that no one should perish. If all three of these statements hold true, then it logically follows that no one should perish.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Free-will is capable of resisting Gods grace. Gods will and grace are confused., The paradigm of free-will is restrictive narrowly defined.

1. God’s will that no one should perish. (The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 2-Peter 3:9)
2. God is working within each of us to carry out his will. (grace)
3. It is not possible to resist God’s will. (it is possible to resist his grace)

Reprobate apostolic teaching. Free-will is self-evident as is reprobate.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Counterpoint…Helen S…didn’t “cooperate” with the grace in her own free-will.

And as a result she was “confused” and didn’t know who she was before her creator.

Faith 1st theological virtue? You don’t want to lose faith its “woeful”