How is it that you know that the Gospel of Barnabas (who was an apostle) is not inspired?

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An author is not dependent upon a body of men to affirm his canon - his canon is simply a reality
Indeed.

But it takes an outside authority to declare whether a text belongs in a particular canon.

And it is ONLY through the authority of the Catholic Church that anyone can know that Hebrews is inspired and the alleged writings of Barnabas are not inspired.
What I also discussed was the study of ancient texts, and was met, by and large, with some people simply closing their ears and saying, “I can’t hear you. I’m just gonna keep saying you don’t know the books of the Bible without the Roman Catholic Church.”
There is NO other way to know.

Otherwise, each person gets to read a particular ancient text and decide for herself that it’s inspired.

That, clearly, is a Pandora’s box even Protestants don’t want to open.
Something clearly contradicted by the First Vatican Council:
These books the Church holds to be sacred and canonical not because she subsequently approved them by her authority after they had been composed by unaided human skill, nor simply because they contain revelation without error, but because, being written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author, and were as such committed to the Church. [First Vatican Council, Session 3, Ch. 2, 7; emphasis mine]
Amen!

The Church did not declare something to be inspired, and therefore it was.

The Church discerned for you and for me that which was inspired, and proclaimed it as an infallible teaching.
That is what I have been discussing this whole time. Any Roman Catholic, Protestant, Eastern Orthodox, Coptic, etc., can study and see why the Gospel of Barnabas is not an inspired book, let alone why we can’t say it came from the apostolic era.
That would be because of Sacred Tradition, BW.

One cannot say, “This does not belong in the Bible because it contradicts something in the Bible” unless one already had the Word of God committed to the saints.

That, friend, is what Sacred Tradition is.

Otherwise it’s merely a circular display of “reasoning”: I know it’s not inspired because it’s not in the Bible! And I know it’s in the Bible therefore it’s inspired!
 
Why don’t you just offer one specific contradiction in the Gospels and then we can address that, rather than referring us to a website.
Matthew 16:17

New International Version (NIV)

17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.

John 1:41

New International Version (NIV)

41 The first thing Andrew did was to find his brother Simon and tell him, “We have found the Messiah” (that is, the Christ).

Matthew 4:18-22

New International Version (NIV)

Jesus Calls His First Disciples

18 As Jesus was walking beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon called Peter and his brother Andrew. They were casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen. 19 “Come, follow me,” Jesus said, “and I will send you out to fish for people.” 20 At once they left their nets and followed him.

21 Going on from there, he saw two other brothers, James son of Zebedee and his brother John. They were in a boat with their father Zebedee, preparing their nets. Jesus called them, 22 and immediately they left the boat and their father and followed him.

John 1:42-43

New International Version (NIV)

42 And he brought him to Jesus.

Jesus looked at him and said, “You are Simon son of John. You will be called Cephas” (which, when translated, is Peter[a]).

Jesus Calls Philip and Nathanael

43 The next day Jesus decided to leave for Galilee. Finding Philip, he said to him, “Follow me.”

BTW, my intention is not to bash Christianity, just trying to figure how the Gospels were demed authentic.
 
Matthew 16:17

New International Version (NIV)

17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.

John 1:41

New International Version (NIV)

41 The first thing Andrew did was to find his brother Simon and tell him, “We have found the Messiah” (that is, the Christ).

Matthew 4:18-22

New International Version (NIV)

Jesus Calls His First Disciples

18 As Jesus was walking beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon called Peter and his brother Andrew. They were casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen. 19 “Come, follow me,” Jesus said, “and I will send you out to fish for people.” 20 At once they left their nets and followed him.

21 Going on from there, he saw two other brothers, James son of Zebedee and his brother John. They were in a boat with their father Zebedee, preparing their nets. Jesus called them, 22 and immediately they left the boat and their father and followed him.

John 1:42-43

New International Version (NIV)

42 And he brought him to Jesus.

Jesus looked at him and said, “You are Simon son of John. You will be called Cephas” (which, when translated, is Peter[a]).

Jesus Calls Philip and Nathanael

43 The next day Jesus decided to leave for Galilee. Finding Philip, he said to him, “Follow me.”

BTW, my intention is not to bash Christianity, just trying to figure how the Gospels were demed authentic.
:confused:

Where’s the contradiction?
 
:confused:

Where’s the contradiction?
Did Peter know Jesus was the Christ by a Divine Revelation, or throught his brother?
Did Jesus meet Peter for the first on the Sea of Galilea or in another place?
 
Did Peter know Jesus was the Christ by a Divine Revelation, or throught his brother?
Through Divine Revelation.

His brother telling him that he had seen the Messiah was his brother’s opinion.
Did Jesus meet Peter for the first on the Sea of Galilea or in another place?
I don’t think that the Gospels mention either way–nothing recounts whether something was their first meeting, 2nd meeting or nth meeting.
 

What I also discussed was the study of ancient texts, and was met, by and large, with some people simply closing their ears and saying, “I can’t hear you. I’m just gonna keep saying you don’t know the books of the Bible without the Roman Catholic Church.” Something clearly contradicted by the First Vatican Council:

These books the Church holds to be sacred and canonical not because she subsequently approved them by her authority after they had been composed by unaided human skill, nor simply because they contain revelation without error, but because, being written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author, and were as such committed to the Church. [First Vatican Council, Session 3, Ch. 2, 7; emphasis mine]

Which is why I was very happy to see Darryl1958’s post:

That is what I have been discussing this whole time. Any Roman Catholic, Protestant, Eastern Orthodox, Coptic, etc., can study and see why the Gospel of Barnabas is not an inspired book, let alone why we can’t say it came from the apostolic era.

Now does part of this involve what the early church felt? Yes, but it’s more than that, and I’ll explain again a bit for those who might be coming to this thread for the first time or haven’t read back. I mentioned earlier that even early Christian enemies such as Celcus identified the gospels as four, and identified them by the authors they’re named after (Matthew, Mark, etc.). That’s very strong historical evidence against atheists, Muslims, etc., especially those who would argue that the early church only gave credence to the names so they had some kind of authority over and against the Gnostic texts. I also brought up the theology shown by the work: for example, if it displays theology that comes from a later time period, then clearly it couldn’t have been written in the time it claims. If it represents something such as Second Temple Judaism (as the letters of Paul do), then it must come from the first century, aka the era the apostolic church was in. This was erroneously called “holy tradition” earlier in the thread, but, as I pointed out then, I don’t see how something that existed before the time of Christ and believed even by Caiaphas and Annas, who nailed Jesus to the cross and persecuted the early Christians, could be considered a Christian tradition - one might as well call rabbinical Judaism holy tradition.

Again, these two are just examples of what we can look for inside a text to know if the beliefs around its authorship are sincere. It’s an interesting subject that is worth studying because it will grow your faith in what books belong in the Bible, and how we know they come from where they say they come from, and aren’t just accepted on blind faith.
Thanks.
I think it is a very bad argument from the point of view of evangelization for Catholics to state that the books of the Bible are known to be inspired and true on the basis of faith alone.
What Catholic Church above all have been testifying to is the real, historical reality of God Incarnate. There are objective reasons for believing this to be true, and that the New Testament is an historically valid testimony of who the earliest church and the eyewitnesses of Jesus believed to be.
These reasons don’t depend upon how good the church is perceived to be by others.
 
Matthew 16:17

New International Version (NIV)

17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.

John 1:41

New International Version (NIV)

41 The first thing Andrew did was to find his brother Simon and tell him, “We have found the Messiah” (that is, the Christ).

Matthew 4:18-22

New International Version (NIV)

Jesus Calls His First Disciples

18 As Jesus was walking beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon called Peter and his brother Andrew. They were casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen. 19 “Come, follow me,” Jesus said, “and I will send you out to fish for people.” 20 At once they left their nets and followed him.

21 Going on from there, he saw two other brothers, James son of Zebedee and his brother John. They were in a boat with their father Zebedee, preparing their nets. Jesus called them, 22 and immediately they left the boat and their father and followed him.

John 1:42-43

New International Version (NIV)

42 And he brought him to Jesus.

Jesus looked at him and said, “You are Simon son of John. You will be called Cephas” (which, when translated, is Peter[a]).

Jesus Calls Philip and Nathanael

43 The next day Jesus decided to leave for Galilee. Finding Philip, he said to him, “Follow me.”

BTW, my intention is not to bash Christianity, just trying to figure how the Gospels were demed authentic.
I suspect you included Matthew 16:17 by mistake. It has to do with Peter’s revelation of Jesus being the Messiah and nothing to do on Jesus choosing His disciples.

Also, for the sake of being on the same Scriptures, how about we use a Catholic translation approved by the USCCB? The NIV is not one of those. You can find the NRSV-CE online for free. It would be a more modern translation if that is what you prefer.

John 1:41-43
New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)
41He first found his brother Simon and said to him, “We have found the Messiah” (which is translated Anointed). 42He brought Simon to Jesus, who looked at him and said, “You are Simon son of John. You are to be called Cephas” (which is translated Peter).
Jesus Calls Philip and Nathanael
43*The next day Jesus decided to go to Galilee. He found Philip and said to him, “Follow me.”
Matthew 4:18-22
New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)
Jesus Calls the First Disciples
18As he walked by the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea—for they were fishermen. 19And he said to them, “Follow me, and I will make you fish for people.” 20Immediately they left their nets and followed him. 21As he went from there, he saw two other brothers, James son of Zebedee and his brother John, in the boat with their father Zebedee, mending their nets, and he called them. 22*Immediately they left the boat and their father, and followed him.
Neither Gospel is claiming the meeting being the 1st one. They both talk about encounters and not in specific order.

Also, as you would not like me to use verses out of the Qur’an without reading what comes before and after the verse, I respectfully ask that you take the time to read the entirety of what the verse you see deals with. While reading on websites can be a good point of reference, we must also be diligent in our search and make sure we read the entire chapter and/or book before we draw conclusions. Not only it helps our understanding but it also helps to form better questions. It also helps me understand you better and in exchange provide you with a better answer.
 
So, if all the Bible (including the NT) is inspired, how comes there are contradictions in it? How can the four Gospels be inspired if John disagrees many times with the other Gospels?
That’s leading into a topic for another thread, which I would encourage you to make and pose your questions.

I will say, however, if you study Christian apologetics (especially learned commentaries), you will most likely find answers to your problems. Most commentaries that go into any sort of detail deal with many supposed contradictions. It just takes a little bit of research and a dose of honest intentions. The answers will be there. 🙂
Thanks.
I think it is a very bad argument from the point of view of evangelization for Catholics to state that the books of the Bible are known to be inspired and true on the basis of faith alone.
What Catholic Church above all have been testifying to is the real, historical reality of God Incarnate. There are objective reasons for believing this to be true, and that the New Testament is an historically valid testimony of who the earliest church and the eyewitnesses of Jesus believed to be.
These reasons don’t depend upon how good the church is perceived to be by others.
That’s why I often bring up the fact that even heretics and unbelievers testified to the legitimacy of the early work. If I can go back in time and find a non-Christian like Celcus who said, “Yeah, Matthew wrote the Gospel of Matthew,” that says a lot more than just blankly telling someone, “Matthew wrote Matthew because I believe it,” or “Matthew wrote Matthew simply because my church says so.” That’s not to say such a source is the final authority, but when dealing with the historicity of such claims, it’s a strong one. The Lord has used much providence in making sure that Christians could put a lot of faith in His written word. We should thank Him for doing so.
 
I will say, however, if you study Christian apologetics (especially learned commentaries), you will most likely find answers to your problems. Most commentaries that go into any sort of detail deal with many supposed contradictions. It just takes a little bit of research and a dose of honest intentions. The answers will be there. 🙂
👍
That’s why I often bring up the fact that even heretics and unbelievers testified to the legitimacy of the early work.
Curious, this.

A heretic’s 👍 on an ancient text gives it legitimacy?
If I can go back in time and find a non-Christian like Celcus who said, “Yeah, Matthew wrote the Gospel of Matthew,” that says a lot more than just blankly telling someone, “Matthew wrote Matthew because I believe it,” or “Matthew wrote Matthew simply because my church says so.” That’s not to say such a source is the final authority, but when dealing with the historicity of such claims, it’s a strong one.
And this prompts the question: who is this final authority who is able to definitively discern what’s* theopneustos*, esp. when there is dispute?
The Lord has used much providence in making sure that Christians could put a lot of faith in His written word. We should thank Him for doing so.
Indeed.

We just need an outside entity to tell us what is His written Word.

You cannot take the word of heretics, historians or unbelievers. Or even of the early Christians. For they had disagreements, did they not?
 
Amen!

Again, a testament to the authority of the CC, and to the use of Sacred Tradition as one of the channels of the Word of God.
You said Amen! to these criteria:

They looked to see if the books were written by an apostle or someone who was reporting the words of an apostle. They checked to see how much the book was being used by other bishops and priests in their Masses, and also looked at how often the book was quoted by the Church Fathers in their writings. Only those books which “scored” favorably on all three of these criteria made it into their canons.

These appear to be ojective criteria that anyone at the time could have employed, whether members of a church or not. Whether there is more or less data available to people now I don’t know, but these or similar criteria could also be applied today, whether someone is Roman Catholic or not. Note also that the Catholic Basic Training site said that the canons of these early bishops were similar rather than identical, so Sacred Tradition didn’t give the same information to all people in all places.

I’m probably still not understanding Tradition well enoung. SteveVH was kind enough to offer this definition of Tradition:

Tradition is “the living transmission of the message of the Gospel in the Church. The oral preaching of the Apostles and the written message of salvation under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit (Bible) are conserved and handed on as the deposit of faith through the apostolic succession in the Church. Both the living Tradition and the written Scriptures have their common source in the revelation of God in Jesus Christ. The theological, liturgical, disciplinary, and devotional traditions of the local churches both contain and can be distinguished from this apostolic Tradition.” (Catechism of the Catholic Church - Glossary)

If this living Tradition is the oral preaching of the Apostles, then obviously it did not include a list of writings that should be included in the New Testament canon, otherwise at least some of the bishops in apostolic succession would have had this list, and there would have been no debate or question about what belonged and what didn’t. Since that was not handed down by the Apostles, how are the canon decisions of local bishops or councils a part of Tradition?
 
These appear to be ojective criteria that anyone at the time could have employed, whether members of a church or not.
Well, not objective criteria, but criteria nonetheless. :yup:

And the trenchant point is, jr, that these criteria are not defined in Scripture. They are determined by…

the Catholic Church.

This means a multitude of things necessarily:

-any Christian who quotes from the NT does so because of an outside entity–not because of the Bible…and therefore he is NOT Sola Scriptura

-this Christian acknowledges the charism of infallibility has been given to the Church

-this Christian acknowledges that the paradosis (i.e. Sacred Tradition) is what defined the canon. And thus they acknowledge that they believe Sacred Tradition to be another channel of the Word of God.
 
If this living Tradition is the oral preaching of the Apostles, then obviously it did not include a list of writings that should be included in the New Testament canon, otherwise at least some of the bishops in apostolic succession would have had this list, and there would have been no debate or question about what belonged and what didn’t. Since that was not handed down by the Apostles, how are the canon decisions of local bishops or councils a part of Tradition?
They are part of Sacred Tradition because the writings that conformed to the paradosis were kept in the canon, and the writings that were not consonant with the paradosis were rejected.

So, for example, if it was part of the teaching of the Apostles that Jesus made clay animals come to life, then all of the ancient texts that limned this event would have been included in the canon.

But the fact that the Apostles had not proclaimed this (through Sacred Tradition) was the criteria used to reject the ancient texts that contained this apocryphal story.
 
These appear to be ojective criteria that anyone at the time could have employed, whether members of a church or not.

The problem is that there were many people who had access to the “objective criteria” in ancient times who did not accept the 27 books that most Christians today accept. I’m not sure if even a majority of Christians then accepted these books. It’s easy to overlook the (name removed by moderator)ut of Christians who followed different canons by saying they were not orthodox, but how did we know that, prior to an established canon? Essentially we are assuming that those Christian leaders, councils, and scholars in union with the Pope are trustworthy in deciding the canon, and that those Christian leaders, councils and scholars that were not in union with the Pope were not trustworthy, thus their canons are not trustworthy. The debate over the canon is not just ancient history, there a few Christian groups today that either omit certain passages or books from the NT, as well as a few that add this or that book, especially adding what they call the “fifth gospel”. As time goes on this (adding books) will be more of an issue, especially in the mainline denominations.
 
Now, the discussion moved to question the authority of the Catholic Church to determine whether a book is inspire or not inspire, fine. We are saying all Catholics accept the authority of the Catholic Church in this regard. However, the question still is left unanswered, How do Non-Catholics know a book is inspired or not inspired? Apparently, they accept the authority of the Catholic Church in this regard.
 
However, the question still is left unanswered, How do Non-Catholics know a book is inspired or not inspired? Apparently,** they accept the authority of the Catholic Church in this regard**.
While the bolded is the only* real* answer, the response has been, “One can examine the over 400 ancient Christian texts and using certain criteria, we are able to tell whether it’s theopneustos or not.”

This model prompts so many questions!
  • If you haven’t actually scrutinized the over 400 ancient Christian texts (and I propose that no one here has), then whose authority are you deferring to when you accept the NT canon?
  • Who decides what these criteria are?
  • And why haven’t I ever seen a list of these criteria?
  • What if 2 scrutinizers come to differing opinions regarding the “internal and external” evidence? Then who gets to decide whether it’s inspired or not?
  • And here’s the very best question: if you applied your “internal and external evidence” to all the books in the NT, esp. the obscure ones like Jude, Philemon, would they meet your criteria while excluding ones such as letters from Clement, Barnabas, the Shepherd of Hermas? Answer: :nope:
 
And here’s the very best question: if you applied your “internal and external evidence” to all the books in the NT, esp. the obscure ones like Jude, Philemon, would they meet your criteria while excluding ones such as letters from Clement, Barnabas, the Shepherd of Hermas? Answer: :nope:
I’ve been on the CAFs a longggg time and have had many, many discussions with non-Catholic Christians about how the canon of Scripture was discerned without the authority of the Catholic Church.

The conversation typically develops like this:

NonCatholic Christian (NCC): Well, I know that [NT Book A] is inspired because of [fill in the blank]

Me: But [non NT Book X] has that criterion also. Why do you exclude that?

NCC: Because it has [fill in the blank with an arbitrary criterion].

Me: Who decided that this criterion excludes a book from the canon?

NCC: It’s just been understood that this is the case!

Me: Ah. I see.

Bottom line: there is no criteria that allows all of the NT books in and excludes the rest of the >400 early Christian texts. Whatever arbitrary list that may be composed (and I have yet to read this list!), it will undoubtedly (if applied fairly), exclude some of the inspired books and/or include some of the apocryphal books.

There just is no other way to know what’s inspired and what’s not except by saying, “Yes, the Catholic Church told me so!”
 
NCC: Because it has [fill in the blank with an arbitrary criterion].
This segues into another similar discussion I have had with non-Catholic Christians regarding the canon.

The non-Catholic Christian will state that, say, the letter of Clement, proclaims things that are contrary to Scripture. (For example, I believe the letter of Clement talks about a mythical creature, the phoenix).

Firstly, that is begging the question, is it not? If it were part of Scripture, then we would proclaim that allusion to a mythical creature is part of the kerygma, right?

You can’t say, “That message in Clement is not part of Scripture therefore we know it can’t be Scripture!”
That’s just :whacky:

Secondly, if we must exclude texts that proclaim unbelievable things, then, of course, we must exclude the gospels, which talk about a man rising from the dead.

(And isn’t that the argument of atheists: “the gospels can’t be inspired because they talk about mythological events such as a resurrection!”)

In other words, if it were to be part of Scripture then we would have to believe it.

The NCC is getting it backwards here. He is saying, “I don’t believe its message. Therefore it can’t be part of Scripture!”

And what the NCC is actually saying is this truth (yet to be acknowledged): “Clement’s text contains things which are not part of SACRED TRADITION, therefore I don’t believe it is inspired!”

That’s the right answer! :yup:
 
R. C. Sproul, a Calvinist theologian, described the Catholic Church as having claimed to have created the NT canon; he then wrote No, that actually God created the canon, the role of the Church is to receive the canon. (Sorry I don’t have the reference available).
I would say of course God created the canon; and every individual who reads the NT is a recipient of the canon. But what is the role of the Church? The ancient Church - that part of it that was in unity with a visible magisterium - publicly defined what God created. There will be a New Testament. These books are inspired, those books are not. Yes the canon was already in the Mind of God before the magisterium defined it. But it wasn’t in the minds of individual readers until the magisterium defined it. Individual Christians in unity with the magisterium only then began to follow only this particular canon. Individual Christians not in unity with the magisterium followed other canons. The magisterium didn’t simply ratify what Christians were already using; they ratified what some Christians were more or less using, rejected what other Christians were using.
Perhaps a majority of the ancient “Church” (in the sense of individual believers) rejected the magisterium’s canon. We may live to see that happen again. In some places, Christians are quietly adding certain “scriptures” that they claim affirm women, and omitting epistles they don’t like. It’s a small minority now, but tomorrow…
 
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