How is it that you know that the Gospel of Barnabas (who was an apostle) is not inspired?

[CopticChristian]

The question of “where did the canon come from” seldom came up in my Catholic education or reading until recently, and I suspect the same for Protestants. But the magisterium won. Most people respected the magisterium, so in the long run they accepted only their canon.

Commenter,

Look and compare and contrast the explanation of how the Canon was recognized by a Catholic site and a Protestant site…

catholicapologetics.org/ap030700.htm

The Canon of the Bible

All Christians realize that if God has revealed Himself by communicating His will to man, man must be able to know with assurance where that revelation lies. Hence the need for a list (i.e. canon) of books of the Bible. In other words, man needs to know without error (i.e. infallibly) what the books of the Bible are. There must be an authority which will make that decision.

The canon of the Bible refers to the definitive list of the books which are considered to be divine revelation and included therein. A canon distinguishes what is revealed and divine from what is not revealed and human. “Canon” (Greek kanon) means a reed; a straight rod or bar; a measuring stick; something serving to determine, rule, or measure. Because God did not explicitly reveal what books are the inspired books of the Bible, title by title, to anyone, we must look to His guidance in discovering the canon of the Bible.

The Catholic site gives a Biblical, historical account…now look, compare and contrast the Protestant explanation…

bible.org/seriespage/bible-holy-canon-scripture

Historically, the word was first used by the **church **of those doctrines that were accepted as the rule of faith and practice. The term came to be applied to the decisions of the Councils as rules by which to live. All these employ the word in the metaphorical sense of a rule, norm, or standard.

’

Notice the word “church” and “decisions of the Councils”…a person that is not out to lunch would have to ask, What Church? Which Councils?

In the course of time, the terms canon and canonical came to be applied to the catalogue or list of sacred books distinguished and honored as belonging to God’s inspired Word. “Greek Christians by the fourth century A.D. had given the word a quasi-technical religious meaning, applying it to the Bible, especially to the **Jewish books.”**60

Greek Christians. What were they like? What did they believe? Did they believe in the Bible alone? Jewish Books. Notice the set up for the substitution of the Hebrew Old Testament, bait and switch for the Septuagint.

…

It is important to note that religious councils at no time had any power to cause books to be inspired, rather they simply recognized that which God had inspired at the exact moment the books were written.

Why is this important? Notice that early on the writer said Councils made decisions. There is an inherent bias introduced as argument to prove a point that is not historically accurate.

Jews and conservative Christians alike have recognized the thirty-nine books of the Old Testament as inspired. Evangelical Protestants have recognized the twenty-seven books of the New Testament as inspired. **Roman Catholics **have a total of eighty books because they recognize the Apocrypha as semicanonical

Notice the link “Jews and Conservative Christians”…what is a Conservative Christian? When did they originate? Notice the intorduction of Evangelical Protestant and then Roman Catholic as an afterthought not explaining that Protestants stole the book, and translated it without authority…

1. Self-authentication. It is essential to remember that the Bible is self-authenticating since its books were breathed out by God (2 Tim. 3:16). In other words, the books were canonical the moment they were written. It was not necessary to wait until various councils could examine the books to determine if they were acceptable or not. Their canonicity was inherent within them, since they came from God. People and councils only recognized and acknowledged what is true because of the intrinsic inspiration of the books as they were written. No Bible book became canonical by action of some church council.

I am a human being, created by God. I don’t have to belabor this fact. Notice how the writer continually repeats and belabors what is not a fact and the intent is to cause someone to believe this. Say something once, I believe it, say it over and over again, then I question it and you can see the need to try to invoke and deny truth.

God guided groups of people to make correct choices (not without guidelines) and to collect the various writings into the canons of the Old and New Testaments.

How was this done?

1. Completion of canon. Since A.D. 397 the Christian church has considered the canon of the Bible to be complete; if it is complete, then it must be closed.

Christian church. What was that Church like, was it like the “full Gospel” yahoos down the road or the church of what’s happening now or could it be the Catholic Church?

CONTINUED

 

[CopticChristian]

The question of “where did the canon come from” seldom came up in my Catholic education or reading until recently, and I suspect the same for Protestants. I think we assumed it was a “given”, could not have been anything else. Actually some visible human agency had to make decisions. Some authority determined there should be a NT. They determined that the OT was still inspired. Many, perhaps most believers, disagreed. The Church determined 27 books are inspired, those other books are not inspired. The universal church (not some “consensus”) told local congregations to drop some of their favorite books as not being scripture. The universal church authority told scholars which books to treat as scripture. Then this human agency declared the canon was “closed”! There were other Christians, some congregations, that continued promoting their own canons. Eventually the canon promoted by one human agency - those united to the Pope - won over the other Christian canons, even though the other canons may have had more believers. The Christians who supported those other canons all referred to “objective criteria” and “consensus of the faithful” as to why their books should be chosen instead of the magisterium’s canon. But the magisterium won. Most people respected the magisterium, so in the long run they accepted only their canon.

Canonicity of the Old Testament

**The Hebrew Bible **of today is substantially the same as the original writings, with only physical changes like the addition of vowel pointings, reading aids in the margins, and a change to a more open form of the letters, etc.

By the time of the New Testament this three-fold division was recognized (Luke 24:44). Other designations such as “The Scripture” (John 10:35) and “The Sacred Writings” (2 Tim. 3:15) suggest a generally accepted Old Testament canon. This three-fold division was also attested to by Josephus (A.D. 37-95), Bishop Melito of Sardis (ca. A.D. 170), Tertullian (A.D. 160-250), **and others (Gleason L. Archer, Jr., A Survey of Old Testament Introduction, Moody, Chicago, 1964, pp. 62-65). **The **Council of Jamnia in A.D. 90 is **generally considered the occasion whereby the Old Testament canon was publicly recognized (while debating the canonicity of several books).

CONTINUED

There is evidence of the manner in which the Old Testament books were recognized as canonical. Laird Harris (R. Laird Harris, Inspiration and Canonicity of the Bible, Grand Rapids, Zondervan, 1969, pp. 62-65), traces the continuity of recognition

Notice how the intent is to cause the reader to accept the Protocanonical by invoking it as the Hebrew Bible.,…oh yeah the Jews, the chosen people and the council of Jamnia that wasn’t and then notice the jump from Bishop Melito of Sardis

newadvent.org/cathen/10166b.htm

and then include Protestant writers Gleason, Harris…qute a jump…ignoring the history of what was…

This is thought process it is illogical and tantamount to foolish thinking that causes me to believe that the Protestant mind is out to lunch.

 

[Robin_des_Bois]

Robin,

This is the CAF that answers questions and defends the teachings.

How do we know that the Catholic Church was right? Good Question. We have history to show that there was a Church and that Church has teachings that are consistent in time.

You would understand the difficulty when someone says…

How do you prove Mohammed was a prophet?

Which branch of Islam is the true Islam

Sunni?
Shia?
Kharijite?

Who has the truth…those that follow the book, those that follow the descendants of Mohammed or those that agree to disagree?

These questions become similar in many respects and in consideration that Mohammed came long after Christ, the question is how is it that Mohammed has any relevance to what it is we are to know about God that Christainity cannot provide evidence for?

You’re not getting me. This forum is an apologetics, which means it’s a forum to defend the Catholic faith by informing people about it. So to defend your religion against allegations, you need to show convincing arguments that your religion is right. Same thing if you go to an apologetics Muslim or Jewish forum, you expect that people try to show you evidence supporting their religion. It’s not trying to bash Christianity, I’m trying to understand it. You for exemple won’t be able to prove your religion to a Jew by saying that the Church said so.

 

[Robin_des_Bois]

Yes. List 1 or 2 other ones, please.

2 Samuel 24:1

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Census Taken

24 Now again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and it incited David against them to say, “Go, number Israel and Judah.”

1 Chronicles 21:1

New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)

The Census and Plague

21 Satan stood up against Israel, and incited David to count the people of Israel.

Also can someone explain the footnate of the below passage to me?

2 Samuel 24:13

New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)

13 So Gad came to David and told him; he asked him, “Shall three[a] years of famine come to you on your land? Or will you flee three months before your foes while they pursue you? Or shall there be three days’ pestilence in your land? Now consider, and decide what answer I shall return to the one who sent me.”

Footnotes:
a.2 Samuel 24:13 1 Chr 21.12 Gk: Heb seven

 

[Isaiah45_9]

2 Samuel 24:1

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Census Taken

24 Now again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and it incited David against them to say, “Go, number Israel and Judah.”

1 Chronicles 21:1

New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)

The Census and Plague

21 Satan stood up against Israel, and incited David to count the people of Israel.

Also can someone explain the footnate of the below passage to me?

2 Samuel 24:13

New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)

13 So Gad came to David and told him; he asked him, “Shall three[a] years of famine come to you on your land? Or will you flee three months before your foes while they pursue you? Or shall there be three days’ pestilence in your land? Now consider, and decide what answer I shall return to the one who sent me.”

Footnotes:
a.2 Samuel 24:13 1 Chr 21.12 Gk: Heb seven

These are very difficult passages without taking some things into consideration.

When we read Job 1:6-12, it helps understand this better.

New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)

6One day the heavenly beings came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. 7The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?” Satan answered the Lord, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.” 8The Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man who fears God and turns away from evil.”9Then Satan answered the Lord, “Does Job fear God for nothing? 10Have you not put a fence around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11But stretch out your hand now, and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face.” 12The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, all that he has is in your power; only do not stretch out your hand against him!” So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.
All creatures are subject to God. Good ones and bad ones.
*

Further, reading James 1:13-14, we understand things even more.

New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)

13No one, when tempted, should say, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil and he himself tempts no one. 14*But one is tempted by one’s own desire, being lured and enticed by it;
*

It also helps to understand that the wicked acts of creatures are not outside God’s sovereignty - for example: we see this in God’s hardening the Pharaoh’s heart. Also in
1 Kings 20:19-23

19Then Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, with all the host of heaven standing beside him to the right and to the left of him.20And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab, so that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ Then one said one thing, and another said another, 21until a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, saying, ‘I will entice him.’ 22*‘How?’ the Lord asked him. He replied, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ Then the Lord said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do it.’ 23So you see, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has decreed disaster for you.”

Back to the verses you posted,

While Samuel reads the Lord enticed David, in Chronicles we get a detailed account that it was Satan. All under God’s sovereign control in like manner where God allowed Satan to act against Job.

 

[Porknpie]

2 Samuel 24:1

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Census Taken

24 Now again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and it incited David against them to say, “Go, number Israel and Judah.”

1 Chronicles 21:1

New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)

The Census and Plague

21 Satan stood up against Israel, and incited David to count the people of Israel.

Also can someone explain the footnate of the below passage to me?

2 Samuel 24:13

New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)

13 So Gad came to David and told him; he asked him, “Shall three[a] years of famine come to you on your land? Or will you flee three months before your foes while they pursue you? Or shall there be three days’ pestilence in your land? Now consider, and decide what answer I shall return to the one who sent me.”

Footnotes:
a.2 Samuel 24:13 1 Chr 21.12 Gk: Heb seven

Robin, a bit late, but welcome to CAF.

 

[Robin_des_Bois]

Robin, a bit late, but welcome to CAF.

Thanks for the welcome!

 

[MartinJordan]

These are very difficult passages without taking some things into consideration.

When we read Job 1:6-12, it helps understand this better.

New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)

6One day the heavenly beings came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. 7The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?” Satan answered the Lord, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.” 8The Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man who fears God and turns away from evil.”9Then Satan answered the Lord, “Does Job fear God for nothing? 10Have you not put a fence around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11But stretch out your hand now, and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face.” 12The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, all that he has is in your power; only do not stretch out your hand against him!” So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.
All creatures are subject to God. Good ones and bad ones.
*

Further, reading James 1:13-14, we understand things even more.

New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)

13No one, when tempted, should say, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil and he himself tempts no one. 14*But one is tempted by one’s own desire, being lured and enticed by it;
*

It also helps to understand that the wicked acts of creatures are not outside God’s sovereignty - for example: we see this in God’s hardening the Pharaoh’s heart. Also in
1 Kings 20:19-23

19Then Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, with all the host of heaven standing beside him to the right and to the left of him.20And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab, so that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ Then one said one thing, and another said another, 21until a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, saying, ‘I will entice him.’ 22*‘How?’ the Lord asked him. He replied, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ Then the Lord said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do it.’ 23So you see, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has decreed disaster for you.”

Back to the verses you posted,

While Samuel reads the Lord enticed David, in Chronicles we get a detailed account that it was Satan. All under God’s sovereign control in like manner where God allowed Satan to act against Job.

Sorry a slight tangent but Im reminded of Luke 22:31 with regards to Satan’s “request” about sifting the Apostles.

MJ

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I was told to leave contradictions to another thread. But if you insist, I can list some to you.
Now, how do you know the CC was right in choosing the canon? Suppose someone is interested in converting to Christianity, how would you convince him the CC got ut right?

For Catholics Scriptures are viewed in a more broader sense. For us, it is not only a book with the Word of God but a book where the Traditions of the Church have been witnessed and practiced since the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Our Bishops have a direct line of succession to the teachings and traditions from the time of the Apostles. The Catholic Church is the living witness of the Scriptures. Sacred Scriptures and Sacred Tradition are both looked at through the same glasses, never apart.

You can see more of these teachings and tradition in these verses:

2 Thessalonians 2:15
New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)
15So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.
*
1 Corinthians 16:13-14
New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)
13Keep alert, stand firm in your faith, be courageous, be strong. 14*Let all that you do be done in love.
*
Romans 6:17
New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)
17But thanks be to God that you, having once been slaves of sin, have become obedient from the heart to the form of teaching to which you were entrusted,
*
1 Corinthians 11:2
New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)
2I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions just as I handed them on to you.
*
2 Thessalonians 3:6
New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)
6Now we command you, beloved, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to keep away from believers who are living in idleness and not according to the tradition that they received from us.
*
Jude 1:3
New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)
3Beloved, while eagerly preparing to write to you about the salvation we share, I find it necessary to write and appeal to you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.
*

Also, it is not my job to convince anyone. I am to stand fast in the Faith and spread and defend the Gospel of Christ. The convincing part is of God only. I can’t convince you of something that God is not calling you to or that God is not drawing you to the Son. I am accountable for those who the Lord brings to my doorstep for His purpose. I am responsible to defend and to love the Faith I have been privileged to have been given.

Philippians 1:27-30
New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)
27Only, live your life in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that, whether I come and see you or am absent and hear about you, I will know that you are standing firm in one spirit, striving side by side with one mind for the faith of the gospel, 28and are in no way intimidated by your opponents. For them this is evidence of their destruction, but of your salvation. And this is God’s doing. 29For he has graciously granted you the privilege not only of believing in Christ, but of suffering for him as well— 30*since you are having the same struggle that you saw I had and now hear that I still have.
*

I know Scriptures are correct not only because the Catholic Church says so, but because the Catholic Church is God’s witness in the world.

 

[commenter]

The Catholic argument for the canon is not circular reasoning. Faith in Christ is the initial step, the argument based on complementing the magisterium is reasonable. The Protestant argument, consensus, IS circular reasoning.
The Sola Scriptura argument is that there developed a consensus among true believing Christians that these 27 books are inspired, and those books are not. But what about those other Christians, possibly the majority, who followed other canons? The (name removed by moderator)ut of those communities and scholars is supposedly not trustworthy because they did not follow our theology, based on “our” New Testament (according to Sola Scriptura). You say we have “objective criteria” to judge after the fact that our canon was the right one. But the ancient scholars that supported other canons also had objective criteria, that led them to different conclusions. You say that we know those books are not inspired, because their theology doesn’t fit the template of “our” canon. The gnostic Christians then, or today, could reject our canon because it doesn’t fit their template.
Based on Sola Scriptura, the Vatican had no authority to close the canon. So if a consensus of Christians in the future decide the Gospel of Thomas is inspired, then it’s inspired. The Protestant response of course is that only God canonizes books, not consensus, or a magisterium. But God’s will is communicated through one of these means.

 

[GaryTaylor]

St Athanasius in “Thirty Ninth Festal letters”-367-AD. Lists the Canons in use then, they are the same as promulgated at Trent.

And he states… “These and only these are to be admitted as canonical.”

 

[GaryTaylor]

So how do we know the Shepard isn’t inspired? The Saint kept a copy with him and mentioned that he did.

 

[joe370]

You’re not getting me. This forum is an apologetics, which means it’s a forum to defend the Catholic faith by informing people about it. So to defend your religion against allegations, you need to show convincing arguments that your religion is right. Same thing if you go to an apologetics Muslim or Jewish forum, you expect that people try to show you evidence supporting their religion. It’s not trying to bash Christianity, I’m trying to understand it. You for exemple won’t be able to prove your religion to a Jew by saying that the Church said so.

Hey Robin. I know (or at least I think) that Muslims have a certain devotion, for lack of a better word, to Mary. With that said what do you think about the miraculous nature of Fatima, in terms of showing a convincing argument that the catholic faith “is right”? Of course, it’s not part of the deposit of faith, so it can be ignored, but compelling nonetheless…

 

[joe370]

I’m not here to bash Christianity, but the thread is about how to know the CC was right.
If someone were to open a thread about how Muslims know that their religion is right, it wouldn’t be a correct answer for the Muslims to say: “because the Prophet said so”. It wouldn’t be answering the thread.

Actually the thread is about: “How is it that you know that the Gospel of Barnabas (who was an apostle) is not inspired”?

Perhaps you could start a thread and call it: how to know the CC was right?

 

[commenter]

St Athanasius in “Thirty Ninth Festal letters”-367-AD. Lists the Canons in use then, they are the same as promulgated at Trent.

And he states… “These and only these are to be admitted as canonical.”

I haven’t seen your source, but I assume Athansius specified the BOOKS in use then among congregations in union with the (visible, hierarchical) Catholic Church. Not all congregations were in union with the Catholic Church, or the Catholic canon, then. As time went on, the other NT canons faded away, with few exceptions. The congregational “local option” disappeared.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I haven’t seen your source, but I assume Athansius specified the BOOKS in use then among congregations in union with the (visible, hierarchical) Catholic Church. Not all congregations were in union with the Catholic Church, or the Catholic canon, then. As time went on, the other NT canons faded away, with few exceptions. The congregational “local option” disappeared.

What Canons faded away? There is nothng different then or now. The source is his letters mentioned and in two coinciding languages. The OO, EO and RC were all in Communion at the time.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

St Athanasius in “Thirty Ninth Festal letters”-367-AD. Lists the Canons in use then, they are the same as promulgated at Trent.

Actually there are noticeable differences. From Athanasius’s letter:

There are, then, of the Old Testament, twenty-two books in number; for, as I have heard, it is handed down that this is the number of the letters among the Hebrews; their respective order and names being as follows. The first is Genesis, then Exodus, next Leviticus, after that Numbers, and then Deuteronomy. Following these there is Joshua, the son of Nun, then Judges, then Ruth. And again, after these four books of Kings, the first and second being reckoned as one book, and so likewise the third and fourth as one book. And again, the first and second of the Chronicles are reckoned as one book. Again Ezra, the first and second are similarly one book. After these there is the book of Psalms, then the Proverbs, next Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Songs. Job follows, then the Prophets, the twelve being reckoned as one book. Then Isaiah, one book, then Jeremiah with Baruch, Lamentations, and the epistle, one book; afterwards, Ezekiel and Daniel, each one book. Thus far constitutes the Old Testament.
…]
But for greater exactness I add this also, writing of necessity; that there are other books besides these not indeed included in the Canon, but appointed by the Fathers to be read by those who newly join us, and who wish for instruction in the word of godliness. The Wisdom of Solomon, and the Wisdom of Sirach, and Esther, and Judith, and Tobit, and that which is called the Teaching of the Apostles, and the Shepherd. source; emphasis mine]

And now from the Council of Trent:

[Sacred scripture] are as set down here below: of the Old Testament: the five books of Moses, to wit, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; Josue, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, two of Paralipomenon, the first book of Esdras, and the second which is entitled Nehemias; Tobias, Judith, Esther, Job, the Davidical Psalter, consisting of a hundred and fifty psalms; the Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, the Canticle of Canticles, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Isaias, Jeremias, with Baruch; Ezechiel, Daniel; the twelve minor prophets, to wit, Osee, Joel, Amos, Abdias, Jonas, Micheas, Nahum, Habacuc, Sophonias, Aggaeus, Zacharias, Malachias; two books of the Machabees, the first and the second. source]

Some books listed by Athanasius specifically as not being canon are listed as canon, while others not even mentioned by Athanasius are listed as canon.

 

[GaryTaylor]

[The NT remains the same. precisely the 27 used today.]

"Again it is not tedious to speak of the [books] of the New Testament. These are, the four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Afterwards, the Acts of the Apostles and Epistles (called Catholic), seven, viz. of James, one; of Peter, two; of John, three; after these, one of Jude. In addition, there are fourteen Epistles of Paul, written in this order. The first, to the Romans; then two to the Corinthians; after these, to the Galatians; next, to the Ephesians; then to the Philippians; then to the Colossians; after these, two to the Thessalonians, and that to the Hebrews; and again, two to Timothy; one to Titus; and lastly, that to Philemon. And besides, the Revelation of John. "

Of the OT now accepted as Canonical, missing of those are 6, and are Wisdom, Sirach, Tobias, Judith and Esther. the Saint considers them, pious and worthy. Maccabees he makes no mention which explains it omission from the Ethiopic version of sacred scripture. Nevertheless they existed since 100-AD, 1- is a historic 40-year view of the history of the Jews in Palestine, 2- isolates 15 of the 40-years. [Of the books he mentions as uncanonical which are recommended by the Fathers for reading, in the Copic translation, the word “proclaimed” is used… [assumed they were used in the liturgy.]

The Bible was codified within 50-years after the above letters. I understand your source which is slightly different than what I am using, I’m using Migne PG -26, and Lefort PG 15-22 and 58-62 which is a cross reference in Coptic and Greek thus a comparison.

Nevertheless, point is the Church through the HS and its Tradition is what gives us Sacred Scripture and discerns it.

My apology for any confusion, also I admit, I read more through books than on-line.

 

[GaryTaylor]

My mistake with Maccabees, would be BC not AD. Course the Vulgate also includes Prayer for the Dead. 2-Maccabees chp. 12

History [though not a great sight]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayers_for_the_Dead

Course the Jewish history could also be viewed with the Maccabees on-line.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Of the OT now accepted as Canonical, missing of those are 6, and are Wisdom, Sirach, Tobias, Judith and Esther. the Saint considers them, pious and worthy. Maccabees he makes no mention which explains it omission from the Ethiopic version of sacred scripture…[Of the books he mentions as uncanonical which are recommended by the Fathers for reading, in the Copic translation, the word “proclaimed” is used… [assumed they were used in the liturgy.]
…]
Nevertheless, point is the Church through the HS and its Tradition is what gives us Sacred Scripture and discerns it.

You had earlier stated:

St Athanasius in “Thirty Ninth Festal letters”-367-AD. Lists the Canons in use then, they are the same as promulgated at Trent.

And he states… “These and only these are to be admitted as canonical.”

He clearly lists some books as not being canon (certainly worth being read and studied, but not held as canon), while some are not mentioned at all that Trent later considered scripture. Again, there are clear differences between the two sources. If there was a holy tradition which regarded them as canon at that time, Athanasius seemed to not be aware of it. Especially strange given that he says this canon he proposes in the letter was “handed down” and “appointed by the Fathers.”