How is it that you know that the Gospel of Barnabas (who was an apostle) is not inspired?

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jrtrent;10201104][Asked in response to my having written, “there are some groups that could be said to have once been a part of that undivided church and have continued to the present day (such as the afore-mentioned Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Roman Catholic churches)”]
Very true! 👍 I think it is fair to suggest that folks in the fist, second and third centuries, respectively, would not have said, if asked: I belong to the Oriental Church, or I belong to the Eastern Orthodox Church. They would have, if asked, said: I belong to the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic church, IMHO.
 
jrtrent
This is where labels get confusing. Many groups refer to themselves as either the Catholic Church or as being a catholic church, but the term is also used to describe the Roman Catholic Church; however, the church headed by the Bishop of Rome was never, by itself, the undivided church. It was either part of the undivided church (along with the groups headed by other bishops at Antioch, Jerusalem, Alexandria, etc.), or it was one of at least three different churches that made up the divided church (hence the designations Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Roman Catholic).
Agreed; labels get confusing.

Back then, prior to the east - west schism and the protestant reformation, Jesus’ church was simply identified as: the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic church. The following designations were simply unnecessary: Protestant, Evangelical, Non-Denominational, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Roman Catholic. Wish it was like that now, as does Jesus, as per John 17. 🤷
 
Agreed; labels get confusing.

Back then, prior to the east - west schism and the protestant reformation, Jesus’ church was simply identified as: the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic church. The following designations were simply unnecessary: Protestant, Evangelical, Non-Denominational, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Roman Catholic. Wish it was like that now, as does Jesus, as per John 17. 🤷
Me too, Joe.

Jon
 
Me too, Joe.

Jon
Hey Jon, hope you had a great New Year brother. By the way I tried to get my niece and her husband to talk to you, so you could talk some sense into them, regarding Lutheranism and the truth, but no go. I do, when I can, share with them what I have learned from you, but still, no go. Oh well…What ya gonna do…🤷
 
Hey Jon, hope you had a great New Year brother. By the way I tried to get my niece and her husband to talk to you, so you could talk some sense into them, regarding Lutheranism and the truth, but no go. I do, when I can, share with them what I have learned from you, but still, no go. Oh well…What ya gonna do…🤷
Thanks, Joe.

I’m here when they want to talk.

May your new year be blessed.

Jon
 
Did any non-Catholic give a good response to this thread? All I noticed was the possibility that the Catholic Church was not the Early Church which is not historically accurate.
 
[Asked in response to my having written, “there are some groups that could be said to have once been a part of that undivided church and have continued to the present day (such as the afore-mentioned Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Roman Catholic churches)”]

An interesting question in that we could answer either all of them or none of them. Some churches that later belonged to each of those groups were already around in the early centuries, so they all existed, yet those distinctive names were not needed till after separation occurred, so you could also say that none existed.

This is where labels get confusing. Many groups refer to themselves as either the Catholic Church or as being a catholic church, but the term is also used to describe the Roman Catholic Church; however, the church headed by the Bishop of Rome was never, by itself, the undivided church. It was either part of the undivided church (along with the groups headed by other bishops at Antioch, Jerusalem, Alexandria, etc.), or it was one of at least three different churches that made up the divided church (hence the designations Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Roman Catholic).
Trent,

Ok,

Oriental Orthodox split 451
Eastern Orthodox split 1000
Roman Catholic East/West split 1000

I designate the split as 1000 for both so as not to offend…however…if you look at the time line

Oriental Orthodox from 451 until now…1600 years
Eastern Orthodox 1000 until now…1000 plus years
Roman Catholic…I would say 2000 years…

However as you look at these Churches split over

The Bible Alone?
Salvation by Faith alone?
Congregation or Presbyterian?
Ordinance or Sacrament?
Fundamentals?
Speaking in Tongue
Baptism dunking or sprinkling…

Those that you name all look alike and divide over understanding of the deposit of Faith…and in the last 500 years…there is only disunity with

Anglican
Presbyterian
Lutheran
Methodist
Non

all dividing and dividing and dividing and not agreeing on anything except

Sola’s

and none of these Sola’s look like the Church you say did not exist ie the Catholic Church.
 
Did any non-Catholic give a good response to this thread? All I noticed was the possibility that the Catholic Church was not the Early Church which is not historically accurate.
I’m not quite certain you really read it, then.
 
Hi Byzantine_Wolf,

Thanks for your reply, but I read your responses and it belongs to the group that says it is inspired because it is inspired, and you reject that the Catholic Church compiled it, right?

Do you believe that a church or “group of believers” had the authority given from God to discern this? and you just reject in the Catholic Church?

The refutations against your points is that the Catholic Church (which has authority granted by God) compiled the books in the bible, and decisions through councils were made.
 
Non-Catholics,

Why did you accept the early ecumenical councils of the CC (and thus the authority of the Church) when they compiled the Holy Bible with the inspired books, and decided which are not inspired, but still reject the authority of the Catholic Church?
 
Thanks for your reply, but I read your responses and it belongs to the group that says it is inspired because it is inspired, and you reject that the Catholic Church compiled it, right?
Again, I think there’s a misunderstanding. The discussion I attempted to bring forward was, firstly, a work is canon the minute an author writes it, and the works of scripture are the canon of God because God inspired them to be written. When Machiavelli wrote The Prince, it was not part of the Machiavelli canon 500 years later when scholars gathered together and wrote a list of Machiavellian works, but the minute Machiavelli wrote it. Likewise, when Isaiah wrote down his prophecies, they were part of the canon of God. Scripture is God-breathed and hence sourced to God (2 Ti 3:15), and when it is written, it becomes part of His canon then and there, irregardless of the opinions of men.

Secondly, there are internal and external witnesses that credence that a work of literature is indeed inspired. I nowhere denied church councils were historical external witnesses that works had legitimacy - what I rejected was that a work is only canon because a single church body or council said it was (something Vatican I likewise said, as I believe was quoted earlier in the thread). There was no council held when Moses came down from the mountain with the Law, it was accepted as canon. When the apostle Paul referred to Luke’s gospel as scripture (cf. 1 Ti 5:18; see Lk 10:7), there had been no council; when the apostle Peter referred to Paul’s letters as scripture (2 Pe 3:15-16) there had been no “infallible declaration.” For us today, we have internal evidence such as the theology (ie., does it demonstrate Second Temple Judaism or Valentinian Gnosticism?), the study of comparative language (ie., does the author of Luke sound like the author of Acts?), and external evidence such as quotes from other books (ie., do other books of scripture refer to other books as scripture?), or references to it by historical sources (ie., the anti-Christian Celcus referring to all four gospels, and by their authors’ names).

The study of why we can trust the scriptures were written by who they are believed to be written by, and how we can safely say they were written in accordance with the theology of nearly 1500 years of revelation, is an interesting subject that I would encourage people to study in greater detail. It will instill greater faith in the word of God in the face of criticisms from non-believers and worldly criticism.
 
Non-Catholics,

Why did you accept the early ecumenical councils of the CC (and thus the authority of the Church) when they compiled the Holy Bible with the inspired books, and decided which are not inspired, but still reject the authority of the Catholic Church?
Not all non-Catholics accept the early councils, but speaking as a member of one that does:
Lutherans recognize the authority of the united Church that held the early councils, but we do not view them as infallible. I think it was Krauth that said that scripture cannot err, an therefore does not. The Lutheran confessions can err, but do not. ISTM that similar can be said of the early councils.
But the canon of scripture is not directly affirmed by the early 7 councils, but instead by local synods such as Carthage. That’s not to say they are not important, but that they are not infallible. It is also true that sees that attended those councils have different canons than the see of Rome.
I wouldn’t reject the united Church’s authority, but even under that authority there has been permitted dispute about certain books, at least up until Trent (I don’t know the longevity of established canons of scripture in the East).

Jon
 
Again, I think there’s a misunderstanding. The discussion I attempted to bring forward was, firstly, a work is canon the minute an author writes it, and the works of scripture are the canon of God because God inspired them to be written. When Machiavelli wrote The Prince, it was not part of the Machiavelli canon 500 years later when scholars gathered together and wrote a list of Machiavellian works, but the minute Machiavelli wrote it. Likewise, when Isaiah wrote down his prophecies, they were part of the canon of God. Scripture is God-breathed and hence sourced to God (2 Ti 3:15), and when it is written, it becomes part of His canon then and there, irregardless of the opinions of men.

Secondly, there are internal and external witnesses that credence that a work of literature is indeed inspired. I nowhere denied church councils were historical external witnesses that works had legitimacy - what I rejected was that a work is only canon because a single church body or council said it was (something Vatican I likewise said, as I believe was quoted earlier in the thread). There was no council held when Moses came down from the mountain with the Law, it was accepted as canon. When the apostle Paul referred to Luke’s gospel as scripture (cf. 1 Ti 5:18; see Lk 10:7), there had been no council; when the apostle Peter referred to Paul’s letters as scripture (2 Pe 3:15-16) there had been no “infallible declaration.” For us today, we have internal evidence such as the theology (ie., does it demonstrate Second Temple Judaism or Valentinian Gnosticism?), the study of comparative language (ie., does the author of Luke sound like the author of Acts?), and external evidence such as quotes from other books (ie., do other books of scripture refer to other books as scripture?), or references to it by historical sources (ie., the anti-Christian Celcus referring to all four gospels, and by their authors’ names).

The study of why we can trust the scriptures were written by who they are believed to be written by, and how we can safely say they were written in accordance with the theology of nearly 1500 years of revelation, is an interesting subject that I would encourage people to study in greater detail. It will instill greater faith in the word of God in the face of criticisms from non-believers and worldly criticism.
Hi Byzantine_Wolf,
I keep reading this argument here on CAF and as compelling as it is it still hasn’t answered the follow up question. In this scenario, how do you account for all of the other writings that were being used in the first few centuries of Christianity? With all due respect, your scenario continues to overlook this issue.

Peace!!!
 
Hi Byzantine_Wolf,
I keep reading this argument here on CAF and as compelling as it is it still hasn’t answered the follow up question. In this scenario, how do you account for all of the other writings that were being used in the first few centuries of Christianity? With all due respect, your scenario continues to overlook this issue.

Peace!!!
I’m apologize, I’m confused how it does, because I’ve clearly mentioned the “other writings” (I assume by that you mean heretics, Gnostics, etc.) in my posts, even using them as examples of how we can discern teachings, time period, etc. (I even do this in the post you quoted). If you mean the other legitimate writings, I’ve likewise mentioned them before in previous posts.
 
I’m apologize, I’m confused how it does, because I’ve clearly mentioned the “other writings” (I assume by that you mean heretics, Gnostics, etc.) in my posts, even using them as examples of how we can discern teachings, time period, etc. (I even do this in the post you quoted). If you mean the other legitimate writings, I’ve likewise mentioned them before in previous posts.
Oh I’m sure it’s me. Please point out again which writings you are referring to in the provious posts that were being used prior to AD300 that somehow was known not to be cannonical and why did they stop using them? Maybe i’ve read it but I don’t see it. Sorry.
 
Oh I’m sure it’s me. Please point out again which writings you are referring to in the provious posts that were being used prior to AD300 that somehow was known not to be cannonical and why did they stop using them? Maybe i’ve read it but I don’t see it. Sorry.
Just to clarify, are you talking about legitimate works (Polycarp, the Epistle of Barnabas, etc.) or heretical works?
 
Any works the church was using legitimate or heretical. Why did they stop using any of them?
They didn’t stop using them. Later patristics were often reliant on second century and third century patristics.
 
Just to clarify, are you talking about legitimate works (Polycarp, the Epistle of Barnabas, etc.) or heretical works?
I’m confused how you would know that an ancient text needs to be discarded as heretical, or included as canonical?

Certainly, if it’s in the Bible, then it’s not heretical.

But how do you know that it doesn’t belong in the Bible? Because it teaches something heretical?

But how do you know it’s heresy?

Because it teaches something that’s not in the Bible?

Do you see how circular this is?
 
In this scenario, how do you account for all of the other writings that were being used in the first few centuries of Christianity?
Yes. I think this is an issue that needs to be addressed.

What exactly in Jude tells an disinterested observer that it is inspired? And what exactly in Clement’s letter to the Corinthians tells us that it’s not inspired?

Does a reference to a mythological creature tell us that it’s not inspired, as Clement’s letter does?

If so, why?

Wouldn’t that mean that any supernatural events that are mentioned in the Bible ought to necessarily exclude those texts from canonicity?
 
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