Don’t these two sentences sound the same?
So your answer seems to confirm what Dave said. That you don’t believe he has the authority to interpret Scripture. Do you believe that anyone can interpet Scripture without a priest?
Very good post. Of course Mary is no longer a virgin. The quote you gave makes this clear. It is even clearer in the original language. The verb for “had no union with” is means “was not knowing.” So even if “until” means cessation not reversal of the main verb (the normal meaning of the word), then a cessation of “was not knowing” is “began knowing” (knowing being a first century euphamism for the sexual act in marriage). This means Jospeh and Mary began a normal marriage relationship after waiting the time perscribed by the Law. And they had many children as the fruit of this relationship.
Just because the word “until” can mean something different in different context does not mean that it does. The word has the normal meaning of the reversal of the verb in the main clause. The context makes clear weather the normal meaning is to be taken or a special meaning. There is nothing in the context of Matt. 1:25 to suggest that Matthew intented anything but the normal meaning. In fact in chapter 2:15 he uses the same Greek word to mean exactly what it means in Matt. 1:25 a reversal of the verb in the main clause.
So do you have a priest with you each time you read the Bible alone? Are you able to read the Bible alone?YOU are not authorized by God to interpret scripture, but HIS Church IS. The Church wrote the New Testament and decided by the guidance of the Holy Spirit what books were inspired. MEN decided many centuries later that they didn’t like that and removed parts of the Canon and then concocted religions around what THEY THOUGHT the Bible says…or more accurately, what they WANTED it to say.
“Remember man that thou art dust and unto dust thou shalt return”
Pax vobiscum,
Does no one see the irony in arguing over the meaning of the English word “until,” when the original was written in the Koine? And written almost 2,000 years ago?
Your argument seems to be: The meaning of the word “until” is so obscure in this passage that no one knows what it means. Therefore we should all let the RC church decide regardless of what the obvious meaning of the text seems to be. I reply that the obvious meaning of the word (the normal meaning of reversal of the verb in the main clause) stands and that the RC church is simply wrong. This means the Pope is wrong, and not infallible. And it means Mary is not perpetually a virgin and had other children.
The normal meaning of “heos hou” is the same as “until” in english. Most know languages use some word to indicate a reversal of the clause in the main verb. This is the normal meaning. I never said that it cannot have special meanings. I did say that the special meanings must be determined by the context. There is nothing in the context of this passage to indicate a special meaning. The normal meaning must stand.
People who personally knew Mary were wrong. People who spoke the Koine as their mother tongue misinterpreted it.
Very good post!
What is interesting to me is that there is no meaning that needs to discerned here. “hermeneo” means the ablilty to discern the message. There are places in Scripture where we must use the art of intepretation to better understand the meaning of the passage. This is not one of those places. We are simply saying that the passage here simply means what it says that Joseph kept Mary a virgin until the birth of Jesus. After the time prescribed by the Law, Joseph and Mary began a normal marriage relationship that resulted in the birth of at least seven more children!
it’s one thing to read a dictionary, another to learn the language at your mother’s knee.
Basil lived about 300 years after the Resurection – and his opinion is a minority – a distinct minority.
Of the people who knew Mary who said plainly that she remained a virgin? Where in the Scripture does it say "and Mary remained a virgin? I think you will search in vain for this passage.
Do you not have this verse in your abridged Bible?
As far as Mary and Joseph having other children, where is the proof, aside from the word brother which was also used to interpret cousin during the time?
Where in Scripture do you find Basil?http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif
Be as bigoted as you like – you’re still doing exactly what you pretend to see us doing, tortuning a meaning out of the test that files in the face of the plain meaning and the accepted tradition from the earliest days.
Actually the Greek for “had no union with” is “ouk gnowkein” which is an imperfect tense. This means continous action in the past. Hence Matthew brings it into the present with the word “heos hou.” It means that the action of the main verb “not knowing” i.e. not having sexual relations with is reversed. They began a normal marriage relationship with Mary that produced many children. Praise the Lord!
This is not torturing a meaning it is the PLAIN meaning of the words. It is your church that cannot face the normal meaning of such a simple word. If it really means what it says then your whole house of cards falls!
