How is NFP morally different to condoms?

[mike182d]

HpyCatholic:

I was basically trying to point out that having sex for the right reasons is never selfish, but maybe it can be? I’ll have to think about this more

Well, you are actually correct in that sex for the right reasons is never selfish. The real question is whether or not we, as fallible human beings tainted with original sin, are *always *able to enter into the union for the right reasons and entirely selflessly.

But, if you and your bride are able to engage in the martial union selflessly and for the right reasons every time, more power to you! Why stop a good thing?

 

[mercygate]

greenfrog:

I think that anyone who believes that NFP users have higher motives (as some have claimed) are deceiving themselves, for the reasons I have already explained.

At this point, other people’s motives are not the issue. Your motives are the issue.

And so here is my problem.

After listening to all the arguments, praying about them, trying to understand them, they make no sense to me.

My wife and I have good reasons for wanting to delay the birth of our next child.

And yet the Catholic church to which I belong, tells me condom use is wrong.

What should I do?

You should use NFP. If you truly see “no difference” then go with the faith!

If my church were telling me to wear green socks every day, I wouldn’t understand, but I would do it. I see no harm in it.

So you trust the Church in matters that mean little to you but for the salvation of your immortal soul, you have reservations?

However, if it told me to refrain from conversation with my wife at certain times of the month I would be unhappy, and when it tells me to refrain from sex with her at certain times of the month I think it is wrong.

Have you ***tried ***NFP? You have a lot of witnesses here who share their positive experiences.

I don’t just think that would be silly, I think it would be wrong to withold myself from her. St Paul tells us not to, unless there is mutual agreement, and there is not.

You’re saying that you should have sex whenever the mood hits just because the mood has hit. C’mon! Buck up, here! You’re a mature adult. You can DO this!

Should I leave the church?

No.

Should I stop going to Mass?

No.

Should I stop taking the Eucharist?

If you persist in using condoms, you should not receive the Eucharist because you are in a state of mortal sin.

But I do not want to be a hypocrite. I don’t want to be a “Cafeteria Catholic”.

You do WANT to be a cafetria Catholic. The question is WILL you be.

I feel very sad about this issue. I would love to KNOW that the Church is right, and then I would submit my entire life to it, however crazy it seemed to me. But I have very serious concerns that it is WRONG on this, and perhaps other issues. It has changed its mind before. It has condemned usuary as a sin, and now the Vatican is a huge lender.

The concept of infallibility is an extremely recent one.

Here we go: trouble in the genitals = trouble all over the place. Trust me. Get this one right and all the other “troubles” will fall into place.

I fear that if I submit to a teaching my conscience cries out against, when I meet God he will say to me “I gave you a mind, I gave you my Son’s words, I gave you the power to discern, why did you squander them?”

Hogwash. It’s not your conscience. You know perfectly well that everything said on this thread makes excellent sense. You know that not using condoms will not deprive you of your conjugal privileges. You have ample testimony that it enhances your spousal relationship and draws you closer to God. What is lacking to you?

Godspeed.

 

[greenfrog]

mercygate:

You do WANT to be a cafetria Catholic.

Hogwash. It’s not your conscience. You know perfectly well that everything said on this thread makes excellent sense. You know that not using condoms will not deprive you of your conjugal privileges. You have ample testimony that it enhances your spousal relationship and draws you closer to God. What is lacking to you?

Godspeed.

It’s this sort of unthinking attitude that makes me surer that people like you are not questioning their own beliefs, and I think that is a very dangerous state to be in.

No, I do not want to be a cafeteria Catholic, I would love to understand and accept everything declared by a church which I knew to be true.

And no, I do not know perfectly well that everything said on this thread makes excellent sense. If I knew that then I would go and start using NFP. I think it is illogical, and that witholding myself from my wife for no good reason would be immoral. You can tell me whatever you think about my opinions, but please don’t tell me what my opinions are, I know that they are something that I can be sure of, and the fact that you say such inane things takes away any credibility there might have been in whatever else you say.

 

[OhioBob]

greenfrog:

…I fear that if I submit to a teaching my conscience cries out against, when I meet God he will say to me “I gave you a mind, I gave you my Son’s words, I gave you the power to discern, why did you squander them?”…

I don’t think it’s your conscience that your are listening to. I think the voice is coming from somewhere a bit lower on your body.

 

[gardenswithkids]

greenfrog:

I think it would be wrong to withold myself from her. St Paul tells us not to, unless there is mutual agreement, and there is not.

Should I leave the church? Should I stop going to Mass? Should I stop taking the Eucharist? But then where would I go? I love Jesus, my heart burns within me when I hear his words. He is Truth. He is Life. I need him, and I need a church where I can worship him. Leave for another church?

…But I do not want to be a hypocrite. I don’t want to be a “Cafeteria Catholic”.

Peter- I am so sad for you as I read your post. I can feel the pain in your heart that you want to believe. I want to ask something personal that you don’t need to answer, but that might shed some light on the problem. You said that you don’t want to withhold yourself from your wife because St. Paul tells us not to unless there is mutual agreement. Is the problem that your wife refuses to use NFP? I

The Church has a beautiful document written to confessors called Vademecum for Confessors to help priest offer advise to people who struggle with chastity in marriage.

http://www.wf-f.org/PCF-Vademecum.html

If the problem originates with a spouse who refuses to follow Church teachings, I refer you to part 13 of the Vademecum.

1. Special difficulties are presented by cases of cooperation in the sin of a spouse who voluntarily renders the unitive act infecund. In the first place, it is necessary to distinguish cooperation in the proper sense, from violence or unjust imposition on the part of one of the spouses, which the other spouse in fact cannot resist.46, 561).] This cooperation can be licit when the three following conditions are jointly met:
2. when the action of the cooperating spouse is not already illicit in itself;47
3. when proportionally grave reasons exist for cooperating in the sin of the other spouse;
4. when one is seeking to help the other spouse to desist from such conduct (patiently, with prayer, charity and dialogue; although not necessarily in that moment, nor on every single occasion).

Please don’t leave the Church over this struggle. Keep praying. Discuss with your priest if you should receive Communion or not. Jesus wants you even more than you want Him, and He wants to help you through this current struggle in your marriage. He wants your marriage to reflect His love for the Church, and He will help you achieve this if you are willing. I will pray for you.

 

[felra]

greenfrog:

And yet the Catholic church to which I belong, tells me condom use is wrong.

What should I do? If my church were telling me to wear green socks every day, I wouldn’t understand, but I would do it. I see no harm in it. However, if it told me to refrain from conversation with my wife at certain times of the month I would be unhappy, and when it tells me to refrain from sex with her at certain times of the month I think it is wrong.

I don’t just think that would be silly, I think it would be wrong to withold myself from her. St Paul tells us not to, unless there is mutual agreement, and there is not.

I commend you for at least grappling with this most important issue which distinguishes the Catholic Church as the bulwark of faith in the Christian world.

Question: If not to believe/trust the Church on the issue of ABC, then who?

There is no mutual consent in the marriage for embracing the demands and sacrifices (and benefits) of NFP? Perhaps this is the crux of the issue and not the rightness or wrongness of authoritative Church teaching. I know of couples who use ABC for the sake of “marriage stability”.

 

[mike182d]

greenfrog:

Oh dear, we seem to be going round in circles now.

You are quite right. I will attempt to get us back on course here and to the real root of the issue.

First, let set aside everything concerning morality - let’s not even talk about it right now. Let’s suppose, for the sake of argument, that NFP and the use of a condom are the same and there is nothing morally wrong with either. This is a big leap, but follow me for the sake of argument.

You say that you and your bride have a serious reason to not have another child. It is very good to hear of your concern for the welfare of your family and wish to be a responsible parent.

However, when a matter is of serious concern, people naturally will do whatever is best at resolving the matter. For instance, if my child has a terrible disease, I would give them the *best *treatment possible - I would not settle for anything less.

As it has been pointed out, NFP is 99% effective. Condom usage is, at best, 85% effective.

If your reasons for not having another child are really serious, would it not stand to reason that you would do that which is *best *for attaining that end?

I’m not brining any morals into this at all - I’m speaking *purely *pragmatically. To use a condom over NFP when trying to postpone conception would be like taking my child to a low-grade hospital when I could have afforded to send him to a better one. It doesn’t make much sense, does it? Unless: a) the condition of my child really is not serious enough to warrant spending the extra money or b) I just don’t want to spend the extra money.

So, my question to you is: what advantage do condoms have over NFP?

 

[mercygate]

greenfrog:

It’s this sort of unthinking attitude that makes me surer that people like you are not questioning their own beliefs, and I think that is a very dangerous state to be in.

No, I do not want to be a cafeteria Catholic, I would love to understand and accept everything declared by a church which I knew to be true.

And no, I do not know perfectly well that everything said on this thread makes excellent sense. If I knew that then I would go and start using NFP. I think it is illogical, and that witholding myself from my wife for no good reason would be immoral. You can tell me whatever you think about my opinions, but please don’t tell me what my opinions are, I know that they are something that I can be sure of, and the fact that you say such inane things takes away any credibility there might have been in whatever else you say.

Greenfrog – I apologize sincerely. I REALLY do. If my words have turned you away from the truth of this beautiful teaching, I regret it and repent of it.

But I believe you misread my motives. Honestly, the love of God is not “no good reason” but a very good reason for periodic abstinence.

Nevertheless, what I say is neither “unthinking” nor “inane” though I might have ticked you off. As you might have guessed, I am emphatic in what I say because my spouse and I began our married life contracepting with impunity – we weren’t Catholic – but we intuited the things people have been saying here and threw away the contraceptives. Our marriage changed for the better INSTANTLY!

Ultimately, the truth of this teaching of the Catholic Church led to our acceptance of other teachings, and we are now both Catholic.

Again, apologies for my brusque approach. I’m kind of a Marine. I approach my own spirituality with a “play the man” attitude that makes my spiritual director whomp me upside the knot . . .

 

[josea]

greenfrog:

And so here is my problem.

After listening to all the arguments, praying about them, trying to understand them, they make no sense to me.

My wife and I have good reasons for wanting to delay the birth of our next child.

And yet the Catholic church to which I belong, tells me condom use is wrong.
…

Should I leave the church? Should I stop going to Mass? Should I stop taking the Eucharist? But then where would I go? I love Jesus, my heart burns within me when I hear his words. He is Truth. He is Life. I need him, and I need a church where I can worship him. Leave for another church? But then I hear un-Christian teachings elsewhere too. One unique (in my experience) fact about the Catholic church is that it does not condemn non-christians to hell, and that is a big reason that has kept me with it.

But I do not want to be a hypocrite. I don’t want to be a “Cafeteria Catholic”.

I feel very sad about this issue. I would love to KNOW that the Church is right, and then I would submit my entire life to it, however crazy it seemed to me. But I have very serious concerns that it is WRONG on this, and perhaps other issues. It has changed its mind before. It has condemned usuary as a sin, and now the Vatican is a huge lender.
Peter (greenfrog)

Dear Peter (greenfrog),

Some time ago I was opening several threads on the issue. The problem was that my wife can not have more children due to a serious risk for her live. I was (and still I am) in the same situation than you and feeling the same: “Here there must be something wrong”. We (my wife and me) had two alternatives: either stop having sexual relations for the next 25 years and wait for menopause or use NFP methods.

Everybody here and NFP experts talk always about the 99% of effectiveness of the methods. What they do not say is that they are secure ONLY if the methods are used correctly and without making mistakes. But the truth is that those mistakes indeed exist! I know some people, experts in NFP, who accidentally had unwanted although beloved children.

Of course, some answers in this forum were like: “If you love your wife so much you should abstain in order to prevent any danger to your wife’s live”.

First they were accusing me as the person that was urged to have sex. No word about my wife’s feeling on intimacy. The argument is fallacious because one could combine different methods, or use direct sterilization, to be 100% certain of preventing a pregnancy and still enjoy marital union.

I asked many people within the Church, even my own bishop, who wrongly (according to the Church’s teachings) recommended sterilization or use of ABC after applying the moral principle of the integrity and totality.

We do not want to be “cafeteria catholics” and therefore limited ourselves to be engaged in marital relations only by using a mixture of the Billing’s method and the rhythm to have a strict time window of a couple of days just before menstruation occurs. You can imagine that it does not work always because many reasons: illness, stress, menstruation occurs just when we were planning to have relations, etc…

Why am I telling you all this? Because I feel like you but still we decided to follow the Church. I have my own opinions too. I seriously think that in our case the principle of totality could be applied and the Church should revise the case. I am not talking about allowing contraception but about the removal of a reproductive function that is dangerous for the life if used, and preserving the unitive part. I do not think that we are doing evil to get a good thing. I even wrote Cardinal Lopez Trujillo a personal letter about the matter because we are having a very very bad time due to this problem. Yes, I have my own opinions too but they are… only my opinions and they can be also wrong.

We think we should follow the Church teachings even if they seem to be so hard and even if we do not understand them.

I pray for you to be strong and we ask you to pray for us too, hopping that we stay in first line on this hard combat and we do not run away.

My best regards,

Jose

 

[Ray_Scheel]

greenfrog:

when it tells me to refrain from sex with her at certain times of the month I think it is wrong.

~ Here is where the logical ball is getting dropped: the Church doesn’t tell you whether or not you should be refraining from having sex with your wiffe at certain times of the month. Instead, that is a decision you have to make during those times based on what the Church has presented as allowable ways to space one’s children when there is a serious reason to avoid a pregnancy in your family’s current life circumstance.

This goes back to this disctinction I’d made previously, that while use of a condom is problematic bacause of the nature of the condom itself requires a problematic attitude about sex, NFP is only a problem when someone uses it with the same attitude as what led to condom use in the first place (and even then, as pointed out by another poster, the use of NFP is still practically superior to using condoms if avoiding pregnancy is truly a grave necessity).

 

[Ray_Scheel]

josea:

Everybody here and NFP experts talk always about the 99% of effectiveness of the methods. What they do not say is that they are secure ONLY if the methods are used correctly and without making mistakes.
…
The argument is fallacious because one could combine different methods, or use direct sterilization, to be 100% certain of preventing a pregnancy and still enjoy marital union.

Outside of hysterectomy or radical removal of the ovaries, there are no 100% methods of effectiveness at preventing pregnancy outside of total abstinance. There are many post-vas, post-tubal, and even combined pill/condom failure babies out there. Though I’ve never heard it from them, I’ve got good reason to believe my youngest brother was the result of a condom failure (yet my mom is constantly negative about how ineffective NFP is - she insists its just Rhythm, which she never learned either - so go figure).

josea:

We do not want to be “cafeteria catholics” and therefore limited ourselves to be engaged in marital relations only by using a mixture of the Billing’s method and the rhythm to have a strict time window of a couple of days just before menstruation occurs.

~ If you have not already, try to consult with a Creighton / FertilityCare / NaPro practitioner about your situation. That is the NFP model designed to address unusual issues and they may be able to help you increase the available days without diminishing the very high effectiveness rate you require.

 

[felra]

josea:

Some time ago I was opening several threads on the issue. The problem was that my wife can not have more children due to a serious risk for her live. I was (and still I am) in the same situation than you and feeling the same: “Here there must be something wrong”. We (my wife and me) had two alternatives: either stop having sexual relations for the next 25 years and wait for menopause or use NFP methods.

We do not want to be “cafeteria catholics” and therefore limited ourselves to be engaged in marital relations only by using a mixture of the Billing’s method and the rhythm to have a strict time window of a couple of days just before menstruation occurs.

Why am I telling you all this? Because I feel like you but still we decided to follow the Church. I have my own opinions too. …Yes, I have my own opinions too but they are… only my opinions and they can be also wrong.

We think we should follow the Church teachings even if they seem to be so hard and even if we do not understand them.

I pray for you to be strong and we ask you to pray for us too, hopping that we stay in first line on this hard combat and we do not run away.

Jose

Jose,

I find your testimony inspiring. It is good to have companions on the straight and narrow way that leads to life. Pray for me too.

Felra

"How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few.” (**Matthew, ***Chapter 7:14) *

***“***I continue my pursuit toward the goal, the prize of God’s upward calling, in Christ Jesus.” *(**Philippians, **Chapter 3:14) *

"I have competed well; I have finished the race; I have kept the faith. From now on the crown of righteousness awaits me, which the Lord, the just judge, will award to me on that day, …” (**2 Timothy, **Chapter 4:7-8)

 

[HpyCatholic]

greenfrog:

And no, I do not know perfectly well that everything said on this thread makes excellent sense. If I knew that then I would go and start using NFP. I think it is illogical, and that witholding myself from my wife for no good reason would be immoral. You can tell me whatever you think about my opinions, but please don’t tell me what my opinions are, I know that they are something that I can be sure of, and the fact that you say such inane things takes away any
credibility there might have been in whatever else you say.

Greenfrog,

Quick question, if you feel your reason for postponing children is good enough for you to go against church teaching and use condoms then why isn’t it a good enough reason to abstain from sex a handful of days during the month?

Also, what is a good reason for withholding yourself from your wife? A headache? General tiredness? Sickness? Anything else?

Seems to me if you really have a good reason to postpone children it should be a good enough reason to abstain.

Not trying to be accusatory just trying to point out what seems to be a strawman argument.

 

[mercygate]

josea:

We do not want to be “cafeteria catholics” and therefore limited ourselves to be engaged in marital relations only by using a mixture of the Billing’s method and the rhythm to have a strict time window of a couple of days just before menstruation occurs. You can imagine that it does not work always because many reasons: illness, stress, menstruation occurs just when we were planning to have relations, etc…

Whoa! IMPRESSIVE! This is inspiring. REALLY inspiring.

Not to be gross here, but you CAN have relations during menstration.

 

[carynh]

greenfrog:

Hi, I would love to hear an explanation of why NFP is morally better than condoms.

I completely understand the moral difference between NFP and abortifacient contraception (where a human embryo is created by the joining of a sperm and an egg, and that embryo - which I believe to be a human being - is ejected from the mother to die).

However… looking at the issue from a practical, common-sense angle, how are NFP and condoms different from each other?

The idea of NFP is to have sex, but try to make sure that the sperm never get the chance to meet an egg (by time of the month).

The idea of condoms is to have sex, but try to make sure that the sperm never get the chance to meet an egg (by putting a physical barrier between them).

Neither method is 100% effective, so users of either method are open to the possiblilty of procreation.

Users of either method are trying to avoid conception.

If, as Jesus said, sins come from within us - our hearts, our motives, then how can the 2 different external ways of preventing a sperm meeting an egg (with the same motive) be so morally different?

Look forward to any responses, thanks in advance,

greenfrog.

Hey Greenfrog!

I completely understand your confusion. For a very long time I was of the same mindset. Then I discovered NFP, and was so convinced of it that I became an instructor. BUT, I must say nothing really opened up my eyes and my heart to it until I recieved a set of Christopher West CDs (as a gift from a priest/sponsor of our NFP teacher training class) entitled “Naked Without Shame”. I was told that the CDs are even clearer than the book “Theology of the Body Explained”. One thing that I heard him say on those talks immediately jumped out at me as soon as I read your post.

JP II connects using any form of barrier method or surgical or chemical sterilization as a violation of the first Commandment, “I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me”. In essence, he says that you are setting yourself up as a god before God when you tell him “I will decide when to accept a child from You, not You.” You are blocking God’s desire to create, and effectively trying to set yourself up as before and more important than God. This was a tremendous revelation to me and helped a lot with my confusion on this issue.

I really recommend Christopher West to anyone who has trouble with this issue. He has a true reverence for the writings of JP II and has a wonderful way of clarifying them. There’s so much more in the TOTB than just birth control issues, but everything about the body is so interconnected that it’s hard to single out particular parts. Plus, these CDs are great for anyone who doesn’t have a lot of reading time but might have a lot of commute time.

Much love and prayers for you!

PS. I realized that I hadn’t explained why NFP wouldn’t be setting up a false god. It’s because you are not putting up any barrier in any way to prevent procreation. You are simply not having sex at the most fertile time, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that God can’t make procreation possible if it is His will. Most people (I would hope!) who were correctly instructed in the method understand this and so have the attitude of “not my will but Thine O Lord” (keep in mind that there are always those few unscrupulous individuals who use NFP simply as an alternative to ABC). On the other hand, someone who puts on a condom has no consideration of its possibly failing and only wants to have sex without the consequences (this from a former condom user!). There is no intention to be open to the will of God, only to block it.
I’ve never heard of anyone who used condoms who said, “Oh well if it fails we’ll just deal with the consequences.” No the purpose of the condom is to completely avoid the consequences. And when that doesn’t happen…

 

[marina]

mike182d:

I find it amusing that in every one of your examples, a person is trying to prevent death or sickness.

Are you trying to say that having a child is equivalant to death and sickness, something we *should *protect ourselves from?

That’s the contraceptive mentality at work.

I have no doubt you find my examples amusing… afterall… you can’t think outside your own narrow mind… that is to say… if I don’t think like you, well then I can’t possibly make any sense.

Death and sickness is not equal to having a child… but then you already know that and you’re saying this because you are so stuck on ridiculing me because I have a different view point. God forbid anyone else has another opinion.

You put me down by my contraceptive mentality at work…
And what is your mentality? Bigoted against those who don’t think like you?

Everyone here is “it’s God’s will…”
ok … why skirt the death question? Is it because YOU CAN’T ANSWER IT???

What if it’s God’s will that someone die tonight or be conceived tonight?
But that seat belt you had on protected you from that car crash.

And maybe your perfect child would have been conceived if the mood was different.

In other words… How the heck does anyone know these things? we don’t! that’s the answer.
we don’t know… but we all do the best we can.
And hopefully we all do the best possible for our families and ourselves.

You want to practice NFP… go ahead… someone else uses condoms… that is their business not yours.
Leave the judging to God not you.

But if you believed that… you wouldn’t be here now would you.
This is a very bigoted board, not at all the catholic welcoming people that I had in my RCIA classes.

You see I choose Catholicisim… I wasn’t born into it and feel like it’s something I have to do.
I come here to discuss things not have fire thrown at me.
But with your rude comments, and those of others … I guess this is what it means to be a catholic to you…

 

[LittleDeb]

marina:

You put me down by my contraceptive mentality at work…
And what is your mentality? Bigoted against those who don’t think like you?

Everyone here is “it’s God’s will…”
ok … why skirt the death question? Is it because YOU CAN’T ANSWER IT???

What if it’s God’s will that someone die tonight or be conceived tonight?
But that seat belt you had on protected you from that car crash.

And maybe your perfect child would have been conceived if the mood was different.

In other words… How the heck does anyone know these things? we don’t! that’s the answer.
we don’t know… but we all do the best we can.
And hopefully we all do the best possible for our families and ourselves.

Hi Marina and welcome to the Church,

I wanted to answer this because of my experience with this section in particular. Please forgive me for answering when it was not directed at me.

First, “contraceptive mentality” is not meant as a put-down. Please forgive those of us who use the term. It is where many of us who are so passionate about the Church’s teaching once were. For myself, I was raised Catholic all my life and boy did I have an opinion on The Church. Obviously I still do.

I spent years with a contraceptive mentality and a culture of death mentality (a term coined by John Paul The Great.) I was well educated and intelligent. I was pro-life but not against contraception. I also spent a lot of years making choices I am not proud of.

The more I researched my own life I discovered that at the root of many choices I made was my contraceptive mentality. It affected many other choices that until then seemed unrelated. Contraception, by definition means: “against the beginning.” I was against the beginning a lot. I was closed to discovering ideas outside the ones I had intelligently discovered. I believed I was right and everyone else was just misguided. By abandoning my contraceptive mentality I am now more able to see other people as the intelligent educated people that they are. Now my conversations are not to change someone’s mind but to understand them instead.

This got long way too quick but I do want to address the second section.

I had the conversation with my husband about seat belts being related to NFP and “When it’s your time to go it’s your time to go…and conception by God’s will.”

The irony is we were having the disagreement because he refused to wear a seat belt! NFP was fine!

He wears one now because we finally came to the agreement that God asks us to be good stewards of bodies. He asks us to make choices each day that conform to His will.

The turning point came when I asked him if it was “their time to go when a person commits suicide? When did our sinful choices become what God wanted?”

Our main point is to use a condom is not good stewardship of our bodies. The example of not using a seatbelt is also not good stewardship.

Welcome to Catholicism where “One billion Catholics can’t be wrong, but we sure can be opinionated.”

PS. My husband is a convert. We both however, “chose Catholicism.”

 

[mercygate]

marina:

I have no doubt you find my examples amusing… afterall… you can’t think outside your own narrow mind… that is to say… if I don’t think like you, well then I can’t possibly make any sense.Ouch. At risk of provoking another response like this one, it would seem that your examples are less amusing than they are painfully common. They are often mounted by people who have not thought these issues through *at all. *Have you read anythng by Christopher West as I and others have suggested?

Death and sickness is not equal to having a child… but then you already know that and you’re saying this because you are so stuck on ridiculing me because I have a different view point. God forbid anyone else has another opinion.

You put me down by my contraceptive mentality at work…
And what is your mentality? Bigoted against those who don’t think like you?Ouch, again.

Everyone here is “it’s God’s will…”

ok … why skirt the death question? Is it because YOU CAN’T ANSWER IT???The whole active/passive will of God is really a different thread. And people really have addressed this in the context of thwarting the natural law (will of God) by using condoms and of working WITH the natural law by using NFP.

What if it’s God’s will that someone die tonight or be conceived tonight?

But that seat belt you had on protected you from that car crash.

And maybe your perfect child would have been conceived if the mood was different.

In other words… How the heck does anyone know these things? we don’t! that’s the answer.
we don’t know… but we all do the best we can.
And hopefully we all do the best possible for our families and ourselves.

You want to practice NFP… go ahead… someone else uses condoms… that is their business not yours.
Leave the judging to God not you.

But if you believed that… you wouldn’t be here now would you.
This is a very bigoted board, not at all the catholic welcoming people that I had in my RCIA classes.Oh dear. Actually, it may not be MY business if someone uses a condom. But if a Catholic is asking the question, “What’s the difference?” then on this “bigoted board” he will get a Catholic response. If that response precludes the use of condoms, and that is seen to be “unwelcoming,” well, I guess we’ll just have to accept the label.

You see I choose Catholicisim… I wasn’t born into it and feel like it’s something I have to do.

I come here to discuss things not have fire thrown at me.
If you go back and read your first post, you might find that it COULD just possibly have been received as somewhat ridiculing to a person who had nothing else to go by.
But with your rude comments, and those of others … I guess this is what it means to be a catholic to you…

Welcome! When will you be received into the Church? I’m guessing you haven’t covered the Sacrament of Marriage and the whole NFP question yet.

 

[mike182d]

marina:

I have no doubt you find my examples amusing… afterall… you can’t think outside your own narrow mind… that is to say… if I don’t think like you, well then I can’t possibly make any sense.

With all due respect, its actually quite the contrary. Along with may other posters here in favor of NFP, we have provided many logical arguments for the usage of NFP over condoms. And yet, not a single argument for why condoms are *better *than NFP has been given. (please see my latest post to greenfrog and feel free to offer your thoughts)

NFP proponents have presented logical argumentation and opponents such as yourself call us narrow minded and bigoted without ever offering an argument *for *your position.

Until you can discuss this issue with logical and reasoning, I’m afraid that your statement is true what stated in the converse.

Death and sickness is not equal to having a child…

What if it’s God’s will that someone die tonight or be conceived tonight?

Apparently you really don’t find the two different because you keep comparing them as if they were equivelants. That is the nature of analogies: in order for them to work, the truth of one example must be identical to the truth in another and you continually use the analogy of death and sickness to prove your point on contraception.

However, there is a fundamental difference between death and birth: As a married couple we are co-creators with God. This means that in God’s plan for creation, we have an important role in assisting God in this matter. We are not co-killers. What I mean by that is that we do not have a say over when it is time for a person, or myself for that matter, to die. We are not to intentionally do anything that would directly aid in our deaths or the deaths of others. For example, if I were to purposely withold medication from a patient who would die without it, that would be evil.

Thus, you cannot compare the two by virtue of *anything *for death and illness are entirely unrelated to the act of co-creation and our response to God in these matters will differ greatly.

God forbid anyone else has another opinion.

Are we speaking of truth or opinion here? If you read any of the Old Testament, God does indeed forbid people from having another opinion if it blatantly goes against His eternal truth.

You put me down by my

contraceptive mentality at work…

By definition, the contraceptive mentality is that the creation of children is completely at our disposal; they have no right to live in and of themselves, but *only *when we say they can. Children are a disease we need protection from and are an unjust imposition on our lives. Contraception acts in this way by mentally rejecting any possibility of having children in the marital union (I say “mentally” rejecting because contraception is far less effective in attaining this end than NFP, and hence the great irony of this debate).

And what is your mentality? Bigoted against those who don’t think like you?

My mentality is that I have no reason to accept a person’s belief if they do not have any reasoning for it. No one in favor of contraception has been able to provide an argument *for *the use of contraception over NFP.

In other words… How the heck does anyone know these things? we don’t! that’s the answer.

But with contraception, we *think *that we do know the answer to these things because we make a declarative “No!” to God when it comes to fertility. When a person sincerely discerning their vocation is unsure of whether or not they are supposed to become a priest, they wouldn’t completely reject the religious life; they would *only *do so if they *knew *they were not being called to the religious life.

The proponents of contraception are saying they *do *know the answer to these things. Proponents of NFP are like that discerning priest who may be leaning towards a specific vocation, but still leave all options open because they may not know exactly what God wants even when they know what they want.

And hopefully we all do the best possible for our families and ourselves.

When you use contraception, you are authoritatively saying that children are not best for the family at this time. There is no uncertainty about it, otherwise you wouldn’t be using contraception.

 

[mike182d]

You want to practice NFP… go ahead… someone else uses condoms… that is their business not yours.

Apparently, Pope Paul VI didn’t think so. Why is it when the Church tells people they shouldn’t lie, its ok because everyone agrees that lying is wrong, but when the Church tells me not do to something *I *disagree with, they are being judgemental and getting into my business.

Catholicism is an all or nothing proposition.

This is a very bigoted board, not at all the catholic welcoming people that I had in my RCIA classes.

By definition, a bigot is one who is intolerant of people who disagree. I am certainly tolerant of people, just not their positions when they do not have a logical reason for believing them. Thus, if being intolerant of an illogical, ill-formed argument is wrong, then the whole of philosophy and theology is a sham.

You see I choose Catholicisim… I wasn’t born into it and feel like it’s something I have to do.

I come here to discuss things not have fire thrown at me.
But with your rude comments, and those of others … I guess this is what it means to be a catholic to you…

…cont’d.

Where did I throw fire at you? When did I call you names?

I drew a conclusion, logically, from the premises you stated and pointed out the error in such thinking.

What it means to be a Catholic, to me, is that I cannot dissent from non-infallible Church teaching unless I have a logically sound and valid reason for doing so. For example, I *strongly *disagree with Pope John Paul II and the American bishops on their idea of just war, but my reasons for doing so are supported by 1900 years of solid Catholic theology.

On what rational basis do people have to disagree with the Church’s postion on contraception?