How is one regenerated?

[Rocket_Man]

How can a person who was baptized as an infant in the CC, confirmed through the laying of hands of the diocese bishop, received the communion sacrament, received eighteen years of catholic education, served continuously as an alter boy, and gone through the ritual of confession before a priest, not know Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior? Aren’t these graces of knowing Him to have been bestowed upon the person in the sacraments? (Absolutely zero regeneration in his lifestyle)… Yet, having lead a sinful lifestyle and in despair he picked up a “Romans Road” pamphlet and turned to night after night and day after day of bible reading and while doing so, understood the Gospel as it was interpreted to him in the heart through the reading and prayer that went along with it, that Jesus Christ was real and offered the promise of forgiveness and eternal life… and having acknowledged Christ as Savior with repentance and acceptance of the Gospel invitation made evident through a life style change followed with years of real regeneration. How can this person reconcile the CC teaching of regeneration through the sacrament he supposedly received in childhood with the real regeneration he experienced later as an adult? Don’t he have to throw one away which was a very deep and personal experience based on private reading of the Bible and exchange it for something that didn’t happen and ordained by traditions of men?

What a puzzle this is because he has experienced both the Catholic form of regeneration through infant baptism and also the sacrament of penance through a priest as a youth. But he has experienced real regeneration through real penance later in life without a priest. His youthful experiences were never sufficient to bend away from sin to coincide with the very reason Christ Jesus came into the world, to take away sin. Yet in the later case, the regeneration was evident, as the turning away from several sinful vices was manifested in his daily living.

That person is me!

 

[SunnaB16]

How can a person who was baptized as an infant in the CC, confirmed through the laying of hands of the diocese bishop, received the communion sacrament, received eighteen years of catholic education, served continuously as an alter boy, and gone through the ritual of confession before a priest, not know Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior? Aren’t these graces of knowing Him to have been bestowed upon the person in the sacraments? (Absolutely zero regeneration in his lifestyle)… Yet, having lead a sinful lifestyle and in despair he picked up a “Romans Road” pamphlet and turned to night after night and day after day of bible reading and while doing so, understood the Gospel as it was interpreted to him in the heart through the reading and prayer that went along with it, that Jesus Christ was real and offered the promise of forgiveness and eternal life… and having acknowledged Christ as Savior with repentance and acceptance of the Gospel invitation made evident through a life style change followed with years of real regeneration. How can this person reconcile the CC teaching of regeneration through the sacrament he supposedly received in childhood with the real regeneration he experienced later as an adult? Don’t he have to throw one away which was a very deep and personal experience based on private reading of the Bible and exchange it for something that didn’t happen and ordained by traditions of men?

What a puzzle this is because he has experienced both the Catholic form of regeneration through infant baptism and also the sacrament of penance through a priest as a youth. But he has experienced real regeneration through real penance later in life without a priest. His youthful experiences were never sufficient to bend away from sin to coincide with the very reason Christ Jesus came into the world, to take away sin. Yet in the later case, the regeneration was evident, as the turning away from several sinful vices was manifested in his daily living.

That person is me!

Youre taking a lot of things for granted. How do you know that the Sacrament of Baptism you "supposedly" received as an infant didnt lead to your later conversion?
Our Lord said that we have to be born again (or from above) of water and the Holy Spirit. Just ask the thousands who were baptized on that Pentecost Sunday, or Cornelius and co., among others. Water Baptism isnt symbolic: its real.

You say you received 18 years of Catholic education. Just how Catholic was it? If it was anything like the drivel most “Catholic” schools inflict on their victims these days, you would have learned almost nothing of worth about the Faith, along with a lot of distortions. Either that, or you werent paying attention......but i bet it was abominable "catechesis". On their own, the Sacraments can do only so much......instruction in the Truth is also necessary. It sounds like you were ***badly let down.*** Thats tragic. Judas was the first traitor, but he wasnt the last. im referring, of course, to those who should have been teaching you the Truth.

By the way, confession “to a priest” is biblical. See John 21:22-23. The priest just stands in for Christ.

As far as recognising Jesus Christ as real, and as Lord and Saviour goes, so do we Catholics. Where were you all of those years you spent as a “Catholic”? It seems (because of lousy “catechetics”?) that you knew almost nothing about the Church, and still know almost nothing about the Church.

What are the “traditions of men” which you, along with other “Bible Christians” accuse us of?

Who kept the Bible for all of those centuries until the “Reformers” and their spiritual descendants took off with it?

Sola Scriptura and private interpretation of Scripture? 30,000+ denominations show the fallacy of that one.

Why dont you get hold of some ORTHODOX Catholic literature: eg "Catholicism and Fundamentalism" by Karl Keating, published by Ignatius Press......find a decentNovus Ordo parish or TLM community: eg Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter. Find the Real Catholic Church, complete with decent, inspiring sermons. Youll find out what the Church really is, and what the Mass and the Sacraments really are.

Because of all of the silliness and abuses that “crept” in, i got pretty disgusted with the Church…until the discovery that it wasnt directed by Rome, but by self-appointed "liturgists" etc. Modern day false prophets, wolves in sheeps clothing, Judases.

Sorry: it`s a bit rambly…thoughts just came at random. Still coming!

 

[His_little1]

It sounds like you didn’t have the experience you should (have) when you were younger. But later on in life, God kept calling you and you were finally able to have that “regeneration” that you needed. The effects of God’s grace can be like a mighty river. It can gouge out large chunks of the banks at a time (something easy to witness) or it can slowly polish the rocks until they are smooth. Both changes occur because of God’s unrelenting desire to keep those of His children which He has called. I think that (your desire for and eventual “regeneration” as you put it) in itself is a wonderful testimony and it gives glory to God! It’s too bad that some can get it (this feeling of healing or regeneration)immediately and some can’t. They might try several different churches before they find one that “fits”. I hope that now, in your current relationship with God, you have found a church home that keeps you close to God. I wish that you could find a Catholic church to call home and that parish would be able to give you the support and environment that you crave in maintaining that relationship with our Loving and Merciful Heavenly Father, our Beloved Saviour, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit which proceeds from the Father and the Son. In my personal experience, The Catholic church has been like icing on the cake. The relationship I have with God feels strong because of the many Sacraments which we have that are an outward sign of His love. I feel like they give me the opportunity to continually work on my self and my relationship with God. I pray for the best for you too.

Peace.

 

[SunnaB16]

***It sounds like you didn’t have the experience you should (have) … ***

It`s hard finding the Pearl of Great Price among all of the rubbish.

…In my personal experience, The Catholic church has been like icing on the cake. The relationship I have with God feels strong because of the many Sacraments which we have that are an outward sign of His love. I feel like they give me the opportunity to continually work on my self and my relationship with God. I pray for the best for you too.

Peace.

If that 20 minute edit time hadnt run out: i was going to add that all of the seven Sacraments use actions (eg sign of Absolution, laying on of hands) and/or matter (eg water, oil) as outward signs that God is giving Grace. There were similar occurrences in the Gospels: eg our Lord used dust and saliva when He cured a blind man, the woman who was bleeding touched our Lords garment. It didnt have to be that way, but theres a reason for it:
God is telling us that were not just spirit: were an intimate union of spirit and matter, and after the Resurrection, we will be that forever. Were whole persons ***ONLY*** when were both. The Church is not Manichaean.

No angel can receive the Blessed Sacrament. It`s our great privelege! God has exalted His material creation through the Incarnation, and in turn, through us!

---

Rocket Man:
Father John Corapi has two DVDs which are worth watching (among many):
“Come Home! to The Catholic Church”
“Surrender is NOT an Option”.

Your early life could not have been as sinful as his was: money, sex and drugs on a grand scale.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Youre taking a lot of things for granted. How do you know that the Sacrament of Baptism you "supposedly" received as an infant didnt lead to your later conversion? Our Lord said that we have to be born again (or from above) of water and the Holy Spirit. Just ask the thousands who were baptized on that Penticost Sunday, or Cornelius and co., among others. Water Baptism isnt symbolic: its real.

Normally in nature, when you water something it springs into life, not whithers. If regeneration was present in infant baptism and included the light of knowledge of Christ, than why did it take 29 years to know Him?

You say you received 18 years of Catholic education. Just how Catholic was it? If it was anything like the drivel most “Catholic” schools inflict on their victims these days, you would have learned almost nothing of worth about the Faith, along with a lot of distortions. .

The lack of education was horrible not only in the school but also in the CC. Whom having the claim to hold the truth it is then also unforgiving. The CC church claims to uphold the moral laws, yet doesn’t exercise disipline among legislators who send messages otherwise such as those voting for homosexuality and abortion rights. For me anyway, knowing masses of Catholics who frequent the drinking establishments, engage in premarital sex, and live a life of lawlessness, the participation in the sacraments are meaningless. Not that I’m judging by looking at those below Moses under the mountain but it would by appearance seem that the Mormons live a more righteous life than Catholics. Yet only the Catholics claims regeneration at infant baptism.

Either that, or you werent paying attention......but i bet it was abominable "catechesis". On their own, the Sacraments can do only so much......instruction in the Truth is also necessary. It sounds like you were ***badly let down.*** Thats tragic. Judas was the first traitor, but he wasnt the last. im referring, of course, to those who should have been teaching you the Truth.

If their were any instruction along the way, I was not interested in it cause I did not know God or have any desire to learn of Him. This isn’t a attititude from somebody whom was suppose to have been regenerated.

By the way, confession “to a priest” is biblical. See John 21:22-23. The priest just stands in for Christ.

Never did anything for me. Only time it did was when I knew who Jesus Christ was and I fell on my knees before Him on my bedroom floor. Why go the agent when the you got the phone number of the King sown in your heart.

As far as recognising Jesus Christ as real, and as Lord and Saviour goes, so do we Catholics. Where were you all of those years you spent as a “Catholic”? It seems (because of lousy “catechetics”?) that you knew almost nothing about the Church, and still know almost nothing about the Church.

The Spirit has yet to draw me or ever lead me to pickup a Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Because of all of the silliness and abuses that “crept” in, i got pretty disgusted with the Church…until the discovery that it wasnt directed by Rome, but by self-appointed "liturgists" etc. Modern day false prophets, wolves in sheeps clothing, Judases.
Sorry: it`s a bit rambly…thoughts just came at random. Still coming!

One of those is buying Masses for those that have passed on.

 

[Rocket_Man]

It sounds like you didn’t have the experience you should (have) when you were younger. .

I am a sibling among six others. All of us are no longer Catholics for the same reason.

But later on in life, God kept calling you and you were finally able to have that “regeneration” that you needed.

We didn’t desire to put away sin until we were called outside the CC.

I wish that you could find a Catholic church to call home and that parish would be able to give you the support and environment that you crave in maintaining that relationship with our Loving and Merciful Heavenly Father, our Beloved Saviour, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit which proceeds from the Father and the Son.

If someone could reconcile the regeneration issue, that would eliminate one stumbling block. But I can’t overcome the CC teaching on regeneration by having lived the real expierence.

 

[SunnaB16]

Normally in nature, when you water something it springs into life, not whithers. If regeneration was present in infant baptism and included the light of knowledge of Christ, than why did it take 29 years to know Him?

In a desert environment, life can lie dormant for years, even decades. There has to be follow-up rain. You didn`t get it.

In my own case, it took 36 years to know Him!!!
My “catechesis” probably wasnt much better than yours. As well, Gods ways are not our ways. Stayed away from the Sacraments for 23 consecutive years into the bargain! But what a relief after coming back!
At secondary school, i thought flying saucers were more exciting. This time around, i want to stick with the Real Thing.

The lack of education was horrible not only in the school but also in the CC. Whom having the claim to hold the truth it is then also unforgiving. The CC church claims to uphold the moral laws, yet doesn’t exercise disipline among legislators who send messages otherwise such as those voting for homosexuality and abortion rights.

Living in Australia, its hard to follow events elsewhere, but the US Bishops put out a statement before the last Presidential elections......the legislators thumb their noses at the Church: look at the late Edward Kennedy, J. Biden, N. Pelosi et al. Add to that those in certain places who, for reasons of cowardice or whatever, refuse to enforce the Truth......in the past 1,980 years, theyve let the side down countless times. So have we: by not praying for them.

For me anyway, knowing masses of Catholics who frequent the drinking establishments, engage in premarital sex, and live a life of lawlessness, the participation in the sacraments are meaningless. Not that I’m judging by looking at those below Moses under the mountain but it would by appearance seem that the Mormons live a more righteous life than Catholics.

Dont judge all of us by the lousy example of the not-so good. Our Lords words to the Laodiceans still apply, and most self-proclaimed “Catholics” are in danger of the same treatment: being vomited from His mouth.

Yet only the Catholics claims regeneration at infant baptism.

Eh?
Who told you that one? You`ve definately embraced a certain stream of Fundamentalism, or similar.

If their were any instruction along the way, I was not interested in it cause I did not know God or have any desire to learn of Him. This isn’t a attititude from somebody whom was suppose to have been regenerated.

As already said, sound religious instruction is also required. You were cheated.

Never did anything for me. Only time it did was when I knew who Jesus Christ was and I fell on my knees before Him on my bedroom floor. Why go the agent when the you got the phone number of the King sown in your heart.

Sure! Go to Jesus first! He then tells you to go to a priest , who represents Him. You`ll then hear the words: “I absolve you…” Total certainty. Totally Biblical.

The Spirit has yet to draw me or ever lead me to pickup a Catechism of the Catholic Church.

You`re quite ready to believe anti-Catholic stuff, but not at all interested in allowing the Church to defend Herself. Yes? No?

One of those is buying Masses for those that have passed on.

No one buys a Mass for anybody!
Asking a priest to specifically remember a particular person, and giving him a few dollars is hardly “buying Masses”.
But: the labourer is worth his wage…

All of the above shows your mistaken ideas about the TRUE Catholic Church. Stop reading those anti-Catholic tracts for a while. And don`t take for granted that what an anti-Catholic preacher says is right. He probably knows no more about the Church than you do.

i dont blame you for being angry at being misled when you were young, but it would be an idea to aim it at the right target. im cranky about all of the lost time, as well, but it`s the fault of individuals, INCLUDING YOURS UNTRULY, and not the Church as such.

Sorry: long winded again.

 

[fhansen]

How can a person who was baptized as an infant in the CC, confirmed through the laying of hands of the diocese bishop, received the communion sacrament, received eighteen years of catholic education, served continuously as an alter boy, and gone through the ritual of confession before a priest, not know Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior? Aren’t these graces of knowing Him to have been bestowed upon the person in the sacraments? (Absolutely zero regeneration in his lifestyle)… Yet, having lead a sinful lifestyle and in despair he picked up a “Romans Road” pamphlet and turned to night after night and day after day of bible reading and while doing so, understood the Gospel as it was interpreted to him in the heart through the reading and prayer that went along with it, that Jesus Christ was real and offered the promise of forgiveness and eternal life… and having acknowledged Christ as Savior with repentance and acceptance of the Gospel invitation made evident through a life style change followed with years of real regeneration. How can this person reconcile the CC teaching of regeneration through the sacrament he supposedly received in childhood with the real regeneration he experienced later as an adult? Don’t he have to throw one away which was a very deep and personal experience based on private reading of the Bible and exchange it for something that didn’t happen and ordained by traditions of men?

What a puzzle this is because he has experienced both the Catholic form of regeneration through infant baptism and also the sacrament of penance through a priest as a youth. But he has experienced real regeneration through real penance later in life without a priest. His youthful experiences were never sufficient to bend away from sin to coincide with the very reason Christ Jesus came into the world, to take away sin. Yet in the later case, the regeneration was evident, as the turning away from several sinful vices was manifested in his daily living.

That person is me!

That person was also me. In the end-after 25 yrs-with most of that time spent as a Protestant- I found out that, by continuing to do what the gospel tells us, asking, seeking, and knocking, the Catholic Church had taught the truth all along-I just needed to find that part out for myself.

 

[elvisman]

How can a person who was baptized as an infant in the CC, confirmed through the laying of hands of the diocese bishop, received the communion sacrament, received eighteen years of catholic education, served continuously as an alter boy, and gone through the ritual of confession before a priest, not know Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior? Aren’t these graces of knowing Him to have been bestowed upon the person in the sacraments? (Absolutely zero regeneration in his lifestyle)… Yet, having lead a sinful lifestyle and in despair he picked up a “Romans Road” pamphlet and turned to night after night and day after day of bible reading and while doing so, understood the Gospel as it was interpreted to him in the heart through the reading and prayer that went along with it, that Jesus Christ was real and offered the promise of forgiveness and eternal life… and having acknowledged Christ as Savior with repentance and acceptance of the Gospel invitation made evident through a life style change followed with years of real regeneration. How can this person reconcile the CC teaching of regeneration through the sacrament he supposedly received in childhood with the real regeneration he experienced later as an adult? Don’t he have to throw one away which was a very deep and personal experience based on private reading of the Bible and exchange it for something that didn’t happen and ordained by traditions of men?

What a puzzle this is because he has experienced both the Catholic form of regeneration through infant baptism and also the sacrament of penance through a priest as a youth. But he has experienced real regeneration through real penance later in life without a priest. His youthful experiences were never sufficient to bend away from sin to coincide with the very reason Christ Jesus came into the world, to take away sin. Yet in the later case, the regeneration was evident, as the turning away from several sinful vices was manifested in his daily living.

That person is me!

Rocketman** – **
THANK YOU** for this thread.**
This is a PRIME example of the grace of faith and the need for our cooperation with it.

---

You speak of Baptism being the “tradition of men”. * WHAT??*
Jesus told his Apostles to do just that in the Great Commission (Matt. 28:16-20). Jesus HIMSELF baptized (John 3:22).

---

As for Confession/Reconciliation being a tradition of men, ask Jesus about that. Ask him why he instituted it and gave the Apostles instruction on it no less than THREE times (Matt 16:19; 18:18, John 20:23).
When he instituted it in John 20:21-23 – he breathed on the Apostles. The only other time in ALL of Scripture where God breathed on man is when he breathed life into Adam back in Genesis 2:7.

---

While you’re at it – tell Paul that he was wrong in practicing “this tradition of men” when he spoke of this Sacrament in 2 Cor. 5:18-20.**

---

Bottom line: You were regenerated at Baptism but you refused to cooperate with God’s grace until YOU decided it was time – then you chose another road . . .

 

[Publisher]

We are regenerated through the ministry and work of the Holy Spirit as He baptizes us into the Body of Christ by grace. Regeneration is a continuous act of the Holy Spirit as we are “conformed into the image of His Son”…as we “put on Christ” as when we experience being “translated into the Kingdom of His dear Son.”

 

[Rocket_Man]

Bottom line: You were regenerated at Baptism but you refused to cooperate with God’s grace until YOU decided it was time – then you chose another road . . .

I was not regenerated in child baptism as you claim. I know who I was and I expressly swear to you that the light of Christ was not in me. I was an unregenerated heathen without any knowledge of God. Without any knowledge of Him I also knew not mercy or grace. The faith of the church did not heal me. Jesus did not tell the Centurion to go home and wait twenty nine years.

Do you not think that I have laid in bed time after time and tried to reconcile the infant baptism with my life and what I knew and lived as child and an adult?

 

[Rocket_Man]

That person was also me. In the end-after 25 yrs-with most of that time spent as a Protestant- I found out that, by continuing to do what the gospel tells us, asking, seeking, and knocking, the Catholic Church had taught the truth all along-I just needed to find that part out for myself.

I do now think I understand the offering of the Mass and the endless sacrifice in eternity. What was once on earth is everlasting on the heavenly altar so to say. That Christ is a priest forever… and the “sat down on the right hand of God” is an expression of power and authority not a physical location of leaving the altar.

 

[Rocket_Man]

We are regenerated through the ministry and work of the Holy Spirit as He baptizes us into the Body of Christ by grace. Regeneration is a continuous act of the Holy Spirit as we are “conformed into the image of His Son”…as we “put on Christ” as when we experience being “translated into the Kingdom of His dear Son.”

Thank you for your explanation of regeneration. This is exactly what I did not experience having been baptized as an infant in the CC.

 

[Rocket_Man]

In a desert environment, life can lie dormant for years, even decades. There has to be follow-up rain. You didn`t get it…

I had no need of the second rain because I was still lying dead because the first was non existent. Had I needed the second, then supposedly being one of His adopted children, God in His mercy and grace would had provided it.

Living in Australia, its hard to follow events elsewhere, but the US Bishops put out a statement before the last Presidential elections......the legislators thumb their noses at the Church: look at the late Edward Kennedy, J. Biden, N. Pelosi et al. Add to that those in certain places who, for reasons of cowardice or whatever, refuse to enforce the Truth......in the past 1,980 years, theyve let the side down countless times. So have we: by not praying for them…

Even Moses asked those below to make a choice and then threw the tablets…

Dont judge all of us by the lousy example of the not-so good. Our Lords words to the Laodiceans still apply, and most self-proclaimed “Catholics” are in danger of the same treatment: being vomited from His mouth.

I’m trying not to judge but truthful doctrine leads to truthful living and actions. I don’t see that from 90% of the Catholics I know.

As already said, sound religious instruction is also required. You were cheated.

If the Spirit indeed lives in you when your adopted into God’s family in the act of the CC baptism, then the Spirit would testify of Christ Jesus, and draw you to the instruction of the Father, which is His Word. When the Ethiopian needed a teacher, God called Philip to instruct. The problem here is the Spirit was not present in my childhood, there was no calling and therefore no instruction was required.

Sure! Go to Jesus first! He then tells you to go to a priest , who represents Him. You`ll then hear the words: “I absolve you…” Total certainty. Totally Biblical.

I knew “Total certainty” when changes were evident in my life that spoke of forgiveness without a priest.

You`re quite ready to believe anti-Catholic stuff, but not at all interested in allowing the Church to defend Herself. Yes? No?

I’m giving you the opportunity, right? I have studied the CC doctrine as far as I’m able to understand on the CC encyclopedia etc. But, many times I find even there that the doctrines speak from two mouths.

No one buys a Mass for anybody!
Asking a priest to specifically remember a particular person, and giving him a few dollars is hardly “buying Masses”.
But: the labourer is worth his wage…

Tell that to your own flock…Because they have been horrible taught as well and are under the pretense that they are buying Masses for the dead. Where are your teachers? The lack of teaching is resident because although you say one is true they desire and practice the other.

All of the above shows your mistaken ideas about the TRUE Catholic Church. Stop reading those anti-Catholic tracts for a while. And don`t take for granted that what an anti-Catholic preacher says is right. He probably knows no more about the Church than you do.

Sincerely, I have torn apart those anti-Catholic tracts and found many lies. But that alone doesn’t authenticate the CC. The church needs to stand true on it’s own.

 

[elvisman]

I was not regenerated in child baptism as you claim. I know who I was and I expressly swear to you that the light of Christ was not in me. I was an unregenerated heathen without any knowledge of God. Without any knowledge of Him I also knew not mercy or grace. The faith of the church did not heal me. Jesus did not tell the Centurion to go home and wait twenty nine years.

Do you not think that I have laid in bed time after time and tried to reconcile the infant baptism with my life and what I knew and lived as child and an adult?

Just as with circumcision in the Old Covenant, the faith of the parents/guardians guides the child in the direction of the Lord until they come to an age of reason. In the Jewish culture, the age of manhood was set at around 13 years old.

Regeneration (rebirth) is one thing. It is the initial grace of salvation. What happens after requires cooperation from the person. Either you were not guided well in your faith, which led to its demise - or you stopped cooperating it from a very young age.

The bottom line is that you can blame the Church and everybody else - or you can look in the mirror and face the facts.

 

[wmscott]

This may or may not apply here, however when I read posts like this one I have to wonder where is the personal responsibility and accountability for one’s own spiritual welfare. They did not do this for me, they did not do that for me, they did not give me this, or they did not give me that. Whatever happened to grabbing onto your faith with all your heart and might, to learn, grow, and actively participate in your own salvation? The grace of salvation given by God is a gift, our faith is a gift from God, the spiritual graces of the Sacraments are a gift from God, but we must do something in return, we must accept them, care for them, and we must grow in them. Far too many folks want the gift, but only put it away in the closet somewhere when they do get it. Then when things get tough or one gets disillusioned they forget about the beautiful gifts from God and complain and blame others for their own shortfalls. Being a Christian and receiving these gifts from God is not a passive event. We must take them, we must be responsible to understand the magnitude of them, and we must be grateful stewards of these precious gifts. Otherwise they are meaningless. So in the end what have WE done to be grateful stewards and worthy of the gifts God has freely given us?

 

[Rocket_Man]

**Just as with circumcision **in the Old Covenant, the faith of the parents/guardians guides the child in the direction of the Lord until they come to an age of reason. In the Jewish culture, the age of manhood was set at around 13 years old.

Regeneration (rebirth) is one thing. It is the initial grace of salvation. What happens after requires cooperation from the person. Either you were not guided well in your faith, which led to its demise - or you stopped cooperating it from a very young age.

The bottom line is that you can blame the Church and everybody else - or you can look in the mirror and face the facts.

Elvisman, I was sinning because sinning is all that I knew or desired. Those are the facts! This is contrary to regeneration the cc water baptism supposedly invokes and the argument I suggest. I am not blaming my sin on anyone but myself. It is an doctrinal argument based on real events in my life. I am fully responsible for my past sins and repented of them. But not until I understood in my heart that the one I was kneeling and repenting to was true and had the power to absolve sin. This I learned outside the CC and through the reading of God’s Word when I was twenty nine. I did not seek God or desire it or fall away from anything as a child cause I couldn’t fall from something I didn’t know.

 

[Rocket_Man]

This may or may not apply here, however when I read posts like this one I have to wonder where is the personal responsibility and accountability for one’s own spiritual welfare. They did not do this for me, they did not do that for me, they did not give me this, or they did not give me that. Whatever happened to grabbing onto your faith with all your heart and might, to learn, grow, and actively participate in your own salvation? The grace of salvation given by God is a gift, our faith is a gift from God, the spiritual graces of the Sacraments are a gift from God, but we must do something in return, we must accept them, care for them, and we must grow in them. Far too many folks want the gift, but only put it away in the closet somewhere when they do get it. Then when things get tough or one gets disillusioned they forget about the beautiful gifts from God and complain and blame others for their own shortfalls. Being a Christian and receiving these gifts from God is not a passive event. We must take them, we must be responsible to understand the magnitude of them, and we must be grateful stewards of these precious gifts. Otherwise they are meaningless. So in the end what have WE done to be grateful stewards and worthy of the gifts God has freely given us?

That’s extremely simple to answer. You can’t grab onto anything that you did not know existed. Not knowing God is contrary to the workings of the Holy Spirit within a regenerated soul. You seem to misunderstand that I am trying to lay blame. Rather, I am challenging the infant baptismal doctrine with real life events.

 

[wmscott]

That’s extremely simple to answer. You can’t grab onto anything that you did not know existed. Not knowing God is contrary to the workings of the Holy Spirit within a regenerated soul. You seem to misunderstand that I am trying to lay blame. Rather, I am challenging the infant baptismal doctrine with real life events.

As I stated this may or may not apply, however with regards to infant baptism, I still stand by the statement “grabbing onto your faith with all your heart and might, to learn, grow, and actively participate in your own salvation”. Did you even try, as a Catholic, to actively learn your faith rather than waiting for someone to tell you what it is? Just wondering, not accusing.

 

[elvisman]

Elvisman, I was sinning because sinning is all that I knew or desired. Those are the facts! This is contrary to regeneration the cc water baptism supposedly invokes and the argument I suggest. I am not blaming my sin on anyone but myself. It is an doctrinal argument based on real events in my life. I am fully responsible for my past sins and repented of them. But not until I understood in my heart that the one I was kneeling and repenting to was true and had the power to absolve sin. This I learned outside the CC and through the reading of God’s Word when I was twenty nine. I did not seek God or desire it or fall away from anything as a child cause I couldn’t fall from something I didn’t know.

Like I said – maybe you had no guidance from your parents/guardians. It sounds to me like they just didn’t care about your being raised with God. If they DID - sinning is NOT all that you would have known or desired. It sounds like they had little to no faith to guide you in the ways of the Lord. I’m not trying to besmirch your parents, but this is the picture YOU are painting. If sinning was all you desired, it sounds like they failed at their responsibilities.

My daughter is anything but perfect, but she knows the Lord because of the guidance of my wife and I - and the difference between right and wrong. She tries to do God’s will (Matt. 7:21) but stumbles sometimes as we all do.

Infant baptism is regenerative. The child must be guided by the parents until he or she can decide for themselves if they want to continue to cooperate with God’s grace - in the same way Jewish parents guide THEIR children. Our children are not omitted from God’s promises as Acts 2:38-39 tells us.