How is one regenerated?

[DCNBILL]

Some would say that God also gives all men the desire to live eternally and without the desire no one would ever choose life. So even the desire to live forevermore is God breathed into the creature. Just don’t give yourself too much credit for making the right choice for the other choice is denying the very existence of life itself. I’m not sure how free your choice really is but I challenge you to try to choose the other, to deny life offered through His Son.

Without doubt! God creates us for Himself, Augustine put this aptly when he stated “Lord our souls are restless until they rest in Thee.” But as you can see very readily from looking around in the world, even though God gives us the grace and the innate desire, not all choose to follow. As for giving myself or anyone else credit for making the choice to follow the will of God, I would have to again agree with you, without the help of the salvation brought to me from the Cross on Calvary I would have no redemption at all, but this does not change the fact that I must cooperate with this gift of salvation if I am to move forward in my faith.

As for your final statement I believe you will find numerous discussions on free will on other threads so as not to derail your current concern.

 

[elvisman]

Just because God wills that all men be saved it does not mean all men have the ability. There’s a comedian who tells a story of being thrown out of a bar because of his vulgar language and drunkenness. The police show up and pick him up out of the gutter and announce “You have the right to remain silent” to where the drunk replies, “Ya I have the right but I don’t have the ability.”

Some would say that all mankind by there own deeds are all in the same fiery furnace of the master glass maker. The glass maker places his rod into the molten glass and pulls some from the furnace and spins and molds them according to his own sovereign will. Other glass he doesn’t mold because it is His sovereign choice not ours. This does not make God a tyrant or unjust to those whom are remaining in the furnace as they rightfully remain in the fiery furnace as they deserved.

Now that’s what I call twisting the Scriptures to one’s own desctruction (2 Pet. 3:16) . . .

John 3:16 tells us that God loved the WORLD (not just some IN the world) so much that he gave his only begotten son and that WHOSOEVER (anybody) believes in him would have everlasting life. There are varying degrees of knowledge of God and there are varying degrees of accountability.
Not everybody has the exact same opportnity to have God’s truth revealed to them as do others - but everybody is exposed to truth - EVERYBODY and we leave them to the mercy of God:

---

Luke 12:48
**"But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."

John 9:41 speaks to those who - through no fault of their own- are ignorant of him and will have less to account for:
"If you were blind, you would have no sin. But you say, ‘We see’, so your sin remains."

You’re still painting God aas a monster who wills the eternal damnation of most of humankind. You have to do some pretty impressive Scriptural acrobatics to arrive at that faulty place. That is NOT the God of Christianity.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Now that’s what I call twisting the Scriptures to one’s own desctruction (2 Pet. 3:16) . . .

John 3:16 tells us that God loved the WORLD (not just some IN the world) so much that he gave his only begotten son and that WHOSOEVER (anybody) believes in him would have everlasting life. There are varying degrees of knowledge of God and there are varying degrees of accountability.
Not everybody has the exact same opportnity to have God’s truth revealed to them as do others - but everybody is exposed to truth - EVERYBODY and we leave them to the mercy of God:

---

Luke 12:48
***“But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment ***will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.”

John 9:41 speaks to those who - through no fault of their own- are ignorant of him and will have less to account for:
"If you were blind, you would have no sin. But you say, ‘We see’, so your sin remains."

You’re still painting God aas a monster who wills the eternal damnation of most of humankind. You have to do some pretty impressive Scriptural acrobatics to arrive at that faulty place. That is NOT the God of Christianity.

I’m not painting God as a monster. He is the creator and we are His creation. He did not will the damnation of mankind, our father Adam choose that for all of us. But now on this side of Adam’s choice all humanity is born into Adam’s sin. Because God pulls some out of the fiery furnace and leaves others to their own demise does not make him unjust. In fact His love is magnified to those whom He has molded, because they recognize that it’s all Him from the beginning to end whom has spoken in the heavenly places the rights of salvation and the ability to the individual through Jesus His Son. The declaration made in the eternal realm is communicated to each individual in present time through the commands, exhortations, and warnings from Scripture.

 

[Carlan]

It is obvious that you had to be completely closed to the catechizes you rec’d in your early growth.
What ever caused you to respond to God’s actual grace at age 29 was a good thing, however , it is too bad you did not return to the Truth of the Apostolic Church when you finally came to your senses and got somewhat wise to yourself, for, whatever brand of Christianity you turned to, has certainly sidetracked you from the Truth.
Not that you are here to ask for guidance but may i suggest a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church as a refresher course in what you were taught during those 12 early years.Peace, Carlan

 

[Rocket_Man]

It is obvious that you had to be completely closed to the catechizes you rec’d in your early growth.
What ever caused you to respond to God’s actual grace at age 29 was a good thing, however , it is too bad you did not return to the Truth of the Apostolic Church when you finally came to your senses and got somewhat wise to yourself, for, whatever brand of Christianity you turned to, has certainly sidetracked you from the Truth.
Not that you are here to ask for guidance but may i suggest a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church as a refresher course in what you were taught during those 12 early years.Peace, Carlan

Carlan, there was no catechizes of the flock from the Church from where I came from. And as I said before, I did not seek God because the Spirit of God was not resident in my life, not because of sin, but because I was an unregenerate. If the Spirit was resident, then He would have testified Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. You can try to lame blame in the mortar and brick, but it was the foundation himself, Jesus Christ, that was obsolete.

When you can answer how all these supposedly regenerated infant baptized Catholics you and I know, in the definition of what regeneration means, do not know God, then you can send me the book. Until then, I remain in my confusion of having to throw away the real regeneration to accept the false doctrine of the other.

 

[elvisman]

I’m not painting God as a monster. He is the creator and we are His creation. He did not will the damnation of mankind, our father Adam choose that for all of us. But now on this side of Adam’s choice all humanity is born into Adam’s sin. Because God pulls some out of the fiery furnace and leaves others to their own demise does not make him unjust. In fact His love is magnified to those whom He has molded, because they recognize that it’s all Him from the beginning to end whom has spoken in the heavenly places the rights of salvation and the ability to the individual through Jesus His Son. The declaration made in the eternal realm is communicated to each individual in present time through the commands, exhortations, and warnings from Scripture.

Rocket_Man -
Your original question was about how we are regenerated. You claim you were not regenerated at Baptism because you never felt a burning passion for your faith. Whatever excuse you have given - it all sounds like poor catechesis and little to no guidance from your parents.

**I have inundated you with verse after verse of Scripture and all you come back with is you own philosophy about God. You’re not even on the same page here.

There is nothing I can say to make you change your mind about WHY you left God’s only Church except to tell you that it was all your own doing. God never leads anybody out of the fullness of truth to a partial truth. We do that ourselves out of spiritual pride, ignorance or rebellion.

 

[Carlan]

.

Carlan, there was no catechizes of the flock from the Church from where I came from. And as I said before, I did not seek God because the Spirit of God was not resident in my life, not because of sin, but because I was an unregenerate. .

Quote from your first post Rocket man,
How can a person who was baptized as an infant in the CC, confirmed through the laying of hands of the diocese bishop, received the communion sacrament, received eighteen years of catholic education, served continuously as an alter boy, and gone through the ritual of confession before a priest, not know Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior? Aren’t these graces of knowing Him to have been bestowed upon the person in the sacraments? (Absolutely zero regeneration in his lifestyle)…. That person is me!

---

Now, Rocket,according to what you wrote about your history above, As an infant you were Baptized( regenerated if you like) cleansed of original sin,justified,saved by the Cross of Jesus and filled with sanctifying grace all in the name of the Trinity. If you, after you reached the age of reason(7years) and began catechizes as you described in your 1st post, and you closed your mind to it all out of disobedience or what ever, that was your fault(sin) face it and stop blaming the Church and Christ’s gifts of the Sacraments.
:banghead: Tell me , am I missing something? sorry I don’t get you!
Peace, CArlan

 

[Rocket_Man]

Rocket_Man -
Your original question was about how we are regenerated. You claim you were not regenerated at Baptism because you never felt a burning passion for your faith. Whatever excuse you have given - it all sounds like poor catechesis and little to no guidance from your parents.

Come on Elvisman, your adding to my words! I knew not God, period. I had no passion, no desire, no interest, no internal recognition. Everything contrary to one who is regenerated by definition of the term.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Carlan, there was no catechizes of the flock from the Church from where I came from. And as I said before, I did not seek God because the Spirit of God was not resident in my life, not because of sin, but because I was an unregenerate. .

Quote from your first post Rocket man,
How can a person who was baptized as an infant in the CC, confirmed through the laying of hands of the diocese bishop, received the communion sacrament, received eighteen years of catholic education, served continuously as an alter boy, and gone through the ritual of confession before a priest, not know Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior? Aren’t these graces of knowing Him to have been bestowed upon the person in the sacraments? (Absolutely zero regeneration in his lifestyle)…. That person is me!

---

Now, Rocket,according to what you wrote about your history above, As an infant you were Baptized( regenerated if you like) cleansed of original sin,justified,saved by the Cross of Jesus and filled with sanctifying grace all in the name of the Trinity. If you, after you reached the age of reason(7years) and began catechizes as you described in your 1st post, and you closed your mind to it all out of disobedience or what ever, that was your fault(sin) face it and stop blaming the Church and Christ’s gifts of the Sacraments.
:banghead: Tell me , am I missing something? sorry I don’t get you!
Peace, CArlan

So your saying then, that I out sinned grace? So that grace is no longer unearned but earned?

 

[elvisman]

Come on Elvisman, your adding to my words! I knew not God, period. I had no passion, no desire, no interest, no internal recognition. Everything contrary to one who is regenerated by definition of the term.

Rocket_Man -
I don’t think you’re being completely honest here.
In an earlier post you said that ALL you desired was sin. I don’t know a single person - nor have I ever - that desired ONLY sin. Do YOU know anybody like that? If you were honest, you’d have to say NO.

Did your parents/guardians actively engage you in the faith or were they spiritually and catechetically absent?

---

Did you know your Catholic faith? My guess is NO. Nobody leaves the fullness of truth if they KNOW it. Again - it sounds to me like simply another poorly-catechised Catholic jumping ship for a false “feel-good” message. The very same thing happened in my family.

 

[elvisman]

So your saying then, that I out sinned grace? So that grace is no longer unearned but earned?

**Nope. You simply STOPPED cooperating with it. **

We don’t simply cooperate with grace ONCE - it is a lifelong struggle. That’s why Jesus said that we must pick up our cross DAILY and follow him (Luke 9:23). It is not a slam-dunk. Either that’s a FALSE Gospel or Jesus is a LIAR.
**Take your *pick . . . ***

 

[Carlan]

So your saying then, that I out sinned grace? So that grace is no longer unearned but earned?

No Roc, I am not saying that. Once you reach the age of reason, God’s actual grace gives you what it takes to discern right from wrong.
If you start being disobedient(sinning) you lose the sanctifying grace you were given in the Sacrament of Baptism and lose your friendship with God,
When and if you repent of your sin,and seek forgiveness in the most wonderful Sacrament of Reconciliation, you receive absolution from the Priest who is acting in Persona Christe.

That is what it takes to be reunited with God and his wonderful sanctifying grace.

According to your history in the Church and how you ended up before you woke up,so to speak, it all went for naught for even tho’ you were taught it never left the head and on into your heart where it was meant to end up, sad… ponder deeply what you have thrown away and still refuse to acknowledge.
Read the CCC with an open mind ,with the thought of sincerely seeking the whole Truth.

What do you have to lose , believe it now that you are grown up or not believe it.It is your call, believe in the gift of free will.Peace, Carlan

 

[autdrew]

From my personal experience, I will venture a guess that the Holy Spirit WAS in you all along. If you are anything like me, you KNEW what you were doing was wrong. Maybe in the beginning it was exciting, it was a bit of a thrill to do things that you knew were sins but thought you got away with. The problem is, the longer we do things like that, the more we turn off our “God receptor”. We become spiritually dry or dead inside. But you get flashes of conscious, times where you feel so bad about something you have done or someone you have hurt, that you vow to do better. I believe THAT is the Holy Spirit given to us in our Baptism. That is God speaking to us. If you are like me, it is hard to admit you have to submit to authority or any rules about your behavior. It is a very self centeredness about me, me, me & what I want. I wanted to do everything MY way. Yet time after time, I made a complete mess of things, doing it my way. If you are like me, it takes a moment of breakdown & saying Please Help Me, I cant do it without your help. That too, is Him. I have a belief that He draws us to Himself. Sometimes things we do seem to close ourselves off to Him, but He IS trying. I knew I believed in Jesus but I didnt want to submit my will for His. It is just my personality. Eventually I had to recognize that I was making a mess of it all & gave it to Him, for good this time. I thought I had done that before but as soon as things got better, I fell back. This time, I refused to fall back on my promise because I didnt want to go back to that dark place.
I look at it as I received Him at my baptism almost like a seed planted in my soul. But without nourishment, (my cooperation with hiss will and even my active fighting it) caused the seed to go dormant. It still was there but not growing. When the time came & I began to nourish it, it sprung back to life & started thriving. I also know that unless I keep nourishing it, it will again go dormant.
Its like the fairy shrimp we had in Souther California. When it rains they form in the little pools of water on the land & when it dries up, they go dormant. As soon as it rains again, they spring back to life. They are tiny, pretty much invisible.
So I honestly think, if you are like me, you did get your seed planted at your baptism but my selfish pride kept me from recognizing it, accepting it & nourishing it, until I fell flat on my face. But it was always there. I would hate to see how I would have turned out had I not had that baptism as a kid!

 

[Rocket_Man]

Rocket_Man -
I don’t think you’re being completely honest here.
In an earlier post you said that ALL you desired was sin. I don’t know a single person - nor have I ever - that desired ONLY sin. Do YOU know anybody like that? If you were honest, you’d have to say NO.

Did your parents/guardians actively engage you in the faith or were they spiritually and catechetically absent?

---

Did you know your Catholic faith? My guess is NO. Nobody leaves the fullness of truth if they KNOW it. Again - it sounds to me like simply another poorly-catechised Catholic jumping ship for a false “feel-good” message. The very same thing happened in my family.

Elvisman, I am sincere as my remembrance allows me. While it may be true that I had knowledge of the Ten Commandments in my youth, knowing the Holy Law is not the same as knowing Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Even Israel had knowledge of the Holy Commandments but that doesn’t mean they had Faith.

I find in my early life my experiences more identifiable with these verses and suggestions:

Romans 8:7, "The mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God, it does not subject itself to the law of God, it is not even able to do so.

Romans 3:10, “There is none righteous, not even one, none who understands, none who comprehends,” I had no ability to respond to His commands. "None who seeks for God, they’re all turned aside, they’ve all become useless, there’s none who does good, not even one.

1 Corinthians 2:14, "The natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, they are foolishness to him, I did not understand them, I was spiritually appraised, and I was spiritually dead.

Ephesians 2:1, and where Paul is speaking about the condition of individuals prior to salvation, “You were dead.” And again, the picture is one of absolute inability to respond. “You were dead in your trespasses and sins.” That’s what characterized me.

Because I can identify my younger years more with the works of the flesh and can’t ever once recall my soul yearning for God, or ever calling out “Father Father!”, or wanting to spend one second with Him, I mean why would I? Religion was just a figment of someone’s imagination imposed on me. Like going to school to learn a subject not because you wanted too, but because it was a required course.

All of these above are uncharacteristic of regeneration. For me anyway, the desire to do His will came came not with infant baptism but after I learned of Him through reading the Scriptures and repented of my sin.

 

[Rocket_Man]

From my personal experience, I will venture a guess that the Holy Spirit WAS in you all along. If you are anything like me, you KNEW what you were doing was wrong. Maybe in the beginning it was exciting, it was a bit of a thrill to do things that you knew were sins but thought you got away with. The problem is, the longer we do things like that, the more we turn off our “God receptor”. We become spiritually dry or dead inside. But you get flashes of conscious, times where you feel so bad about something you have done or someone you have hurt, that you vow to do better. I believe THAT is the Holy Spirit given to us in our Baptism. That is God speaking to us. If you are like me, it is hard to admit you have to submit to authority or any rules about your behavior. It is a very self centeredness about me, me, me & what I want. I wanted to do everything MY way. Yet time after time, I made a complete mess of things, doing it my way. If you are like me, it takes a moment of breakdown & saying Please Help Me, I cant do it without your help. That too, is Him. I have a belief that He draws us to Himself. Sometimes things we do seem to close ourselves off to Him, but He IS trying. I knew I believed in Jesus but I didnt want to submit my will for His. It is just my personality. Eventually I had to recognize that I was making a mess of it all & gave it to Him, for good this time. I thought I had done that before but as soon as things got better, I fell back. This time, I refused to fall back on my promise because I didnt want to go back to that dark place.
I look at it as I received Him at my baptism almost like a seed planted in my soul. But without nourishment, (my cooperation with hiss will and even my active fighting it) caused the seed to go dormant. It still was there but not growing. When the time came & I began to nourish it, it sprung back to life & started thriving. I also know that unless I keep nourishing it, it will again go dormant.
Its like the fairy shrimp we had in Souther California. When it rains they form in the little pools of water on the land & when it dries up, they go dormant. As soon as it rains again, they spring back to life. They are tiny, pretty much invisible.
So I honestly think, if you are like me, you did get your seed planted at your baptism but my selfish pride kept me from recognizing it, accepting it & nourishing it, until I fell flat on my face. But it was always there. I would hate to see how I would have turned out had I not had that baptism as a kid!

Don’t get knowing Jesus Christ personally as Lord and Savior confused with your conscious convicting you for sin. Maybe there’s an answer in there for me somewhere, that is where my first nature had to die through sin before I would know Him. And the Holy Spirit was convicting me of sin that I would finally crumble and reach out for something? But that isn’t the nature of regeneration but rather degeneration.

 

[Rocket_Man]

No Roc, I am not saying that. Once you reach the age of reason, God’s actual grace gives you what it takes to discern right from wrong.
If you start being disobedient(sinning) you lose the sanctifying grace you were given in the Sacrament of Baptism and lose your friendship with God,

Carlan, let’s say I reached the age of reason and all you say is true. But my reason did not ever understand in my heart that Jesus Christ came into the world to save us and He was the eternal God. Religion for me was 2+2=4, it was not grasped in my soul. How could I loose a friendship with a friend I never had or knew?

Different than my early years, today in all that I live and do God is ever present with me. My mind is overwhelmed and consumed with thoughts of Him and I seek to the best of my ability to follow Him, knowing that all of this including the ability is God breathed. I never ever ever had this love or knowledge of Jesus Christ as Savior before learning of Him through reading the Scripture and then being convicted of my sins and repenting. I was regenerated then, a new creation, a different heart and desire.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Nope. You simply STOPPED cooperating with it.

We don’t simply cooperate with grace ONCE - it is a lifelong struggle. That’s why Jesus said that we must pick up our cross DAILY and follow him (Luke 9:23). It is not a slam-dunk. Either that’s a FALSE Gospel or Jesus is a LIAR.
**Take your *pick . . . ***

I just have a hard time with the phrase “cooperating with grace”. As if you have in your humanness the desire to cooperate with anything regarding God. I know that I didn’t until I was twenty-nine and was given a new nature. Israel missed the target too thinking that by keeping the commandments they were earning salvation.

 

[elvisman]

I just have a hard time with the phrase “cooperating with grace”. As if you have in your humanness the desire to cooperate with anything regarding God. I know that I didn’t until I was twenty-nine and was given a new nature. Israel missed the target too thinking that by keeping the commandments they were earning salvation.

God’s grace is a gift. The grace to believe, the grace to endure, the grace to be finally saved. It’s all a free gift, right?

A gift is something that can be accepted or refused or it’s not a gift - it’s a sentence.
God does not force his love on ANY of us - even though he wills the salvation of ALL (1 Tim. 2:4). Being regenerate means that you have a full experiential knowledge (epignosis) of God - like Judas did. He healed the lame, cured the sick and cast out demons in the name of Christ (Mark 6:7-13). BUT - he did not endure to the end.

If you feel God forced his grace upon you at 29 - you worship a false God.**

 

[SteveVH]

I just have a hard time with the phrase “cooperating with grace”.

The sacraments are not magic. The priest does not wave a wand and “poof” you know Christ. Of course you must cooperate with grace and when you reach the age of reason you must be properly disposed to receive the graces that are made available to you in the sacraments. In confession we “firmly resolve, with the help of [God’s] grace, to sin no more and to avoid the near occassion of sin”. That means that when you leave the confessional and see an attractive woman walking down the street wearing “short shorts” you look elsewhere and don’t focus on her. That is cooperating with God’s grace. Every temptation is also an opportunity to receive even more grace if we chose to overcome it. He gives us the strength to look away and it is up to us whether or not to cooperate.

As if you have in your humanness the desire to cooperate with anything regarding God. I know that I didn’t until I was twenty-nine and was given a new nature. Israel missed the target too thinking that by keeping the commandments they were earning salvation.

Well, actually, in our humanness we do have the desire to cooperate, maybe not the ability, so this thing you learned when you were twenty-nine is actually an error. When you were “given a new nature” did you stop sinning? Unfortunately, because of the “fall”, we also have to deal with a little thing called “concupiscence”, or the disordered appetite for sin. This can only be overcome by grace and our willingess to cooperate with that grace. We will always have free will and the tendancy toward sin, even when we “know Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior”.
That is why we must “persevere to the end”.

I am in agreement with many of the posters here that you were poorly catechized; many Catholics are. It’s one of my pet peeves.

I pray that you will explore the one, true faith again. You obviously have truth, but you are only picking up scraps. Come to the feast!

God bless you.

 

[elvisman]

All of these above are uncharacteristic of regeneration. For me anyway, the desire to do His will came came not with infant baptism but after I learned of Him through reading the Scriptures and repented of my sin.

**So, let me get this straight. **

For the first 400 years of Christianity, there was no canon of Scripture. The had, in effect - no Bible. It wouldn’t have mattered anyway because MOST of the population was illiterate until about 200 years ago. Did THEY know God? According to YOU - you have to READ the Bible to be saved. Please show me where it says that in the Bible.

According to 1 Pet. 3:21 - “baptism now saves you”, yet YOU reject Baptismal Regeneration. Is Peter a liar?
Am I the only one who sees something wrong with this picture?