How is one regenerated?

[SteveVH]

So, let me get this straight.

For the first 400 years of Christianity, there was no canon of Scripture. The had, in effect - no Bible. It wouldn’t have mattered anyway because MOST of the population was illiterate until about 200 years ago. Did THEY know God? According to YOU - you have to READ the Bible to be saved. Please show me where it says that in the Bible.

According to 1 Pet. 3:21 - “baptism now saves you”, yet YOU reject Baptismal Regeneration. Is Peter a liar?
**Am I the only **one who sees something wrong with this picture?

No, you’re not.

 

[Rocket_Man]

The sacraments are not magic. The priest does not wave a wand and “poof” you know Christ. Of course you must cooperate with grace and when you reach the age of reason you must be properly disposed to receive the graces that are made available to you in the sacraments. In confession we “firmly resolve, with the help of [God’s] grace, to sin no more and to avoid the near occassion of sin”. That means that when you leave the confessional and see an attractive woman walking down the street wearing “short shorts” you look elsewhere and don’t focus on her. That is cooperating with God’s grace. Every temptation is also an opportunity to receive even more grace if we chose to overcome it. He gives us the strength to look away and it is up to us whether or not to cooperate.

Well, actually, in our humanness we do have the desire to cooperate, maybe not the ability, so this thing you learned when you were twenty-nine is actually an error. When you were “given a new nature” did you stop sinning? Unfortunately, because of the “fall”, we also have to deal with a little thing called “concupiscence”, or the disordered appetite for sin. This can only be overcome by grace and our willingess to cooperate with that grace. We will always have free will and the tendancy toward sin, even when we “know Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior”.
That is why we must “persevere to the end”.

I am in agreement with many of the posters here that you were poorly catechized; many Catholics are. It’s one of my pet peeves.

I pray that you will explore the one, true faith again. You obviously have truth, but you are only picking up scraps. Come to the feast!

God bless you.

You have it all wrong. All that was in my power to do after being baptized as a child was to follow my desire to add sin to sin. I sought after sin, hungered for it, and if the choice was to stay home and masturbate or go to church on Sunday, I would choose the flesh every time. I had no power or ability to overcome my desire to sin. If there was a choice to do good then sin won out every time. This sin, it being a destroyer, did what sin does, as the wages of sin is death. It took me to the end where I had nothing left, not even life

Yet, all men are naturally created with the desire to live everlasting. God while making Himself known to me when I was twenty nine, worked within the desire that was given to all men to have eternal life with the knowledge and understanding that what I truly deserved was eternal death. What He offered was a free gift, that being His Son, Jesus Christ. The gift was not presented to me as a second chance or a gift that could be taken away over and over when I sinned and then given back. But the gift was presented to me with the promise that it contained all things and it was everlasting no matter what I did or could ever do again. Absolutely Everything! And once the gift was opened, the gift would bloom forevermore and could not be killed by man or angel or any other heavenly power, because the gift was eternal life himself, Jesus Christ. And when I am disobedient, it continues to bloom, and when I without faith it blooms, and when I am undeserving, it blooms.

I don’t earn grace or loose grace by my obedient actions or sinfulness. I don’t cooperate with grace. Rather grace consumes me and overtakes me and changes my will from the desire to sin to the will to be obedient. It’s all God from beginning to end.

 

[CaptainPicard]

Hi Rocketman,
Your story is that of the Prodigal son. He really was the son of the Father, he then fell away and suffered a sort of spiritual death (the father said that he was dead to him). He was then graciously welcomed back by the father. He wasn’t born when the father welcomed him back. He was already a member of the family even before he fell away.

Likewise, you were born again into God’s family at baptism, you fell away, and then came back to God. Your conversion must have been a very powerful emotional experience (just as the prodigal son must have been elated to return home). To come back to God is a great thing. But just because the emotion happened then, and just because the reconciliation happened then, doesn’t mean that the regeneration didn’t happen earlier. Again, the prodigal son wasn’t born when he came back to the Father. He was already a member of the family.

You were a member of God’s family the whole time, and you were even a member in right standing with God until you were old enough to willfully reject him. You are quite right to say that you could not respond to God and dig yourself out of the hole alone. But God, just as a loving Father would, beckoned you back and did everything He could to get you to chose to come back home. But just as a Father wont force a wayward son to love him, neither will God. Likewise, a Father forgives his son anything, but when a son refuses forgiveness and is so deep in transgression, the Father can only wait and beckon him, and in the case of God, send his grace as an invitation to come back home.

The more you realize that the earthly father is a figure of our Father in heaven, the more you realize that the Catholic model makes sense. I have no doubt that the scriptures teach baptismal regeneration. I’m hoping to be done with an essay on baptismal regeneration very shortly. If you want, I can send you a personal message when I have it posted, so you can read it.

 

[SteveVH]

You have it all wrong. All that was in my power to do after being baptized as a child was to follow my desire to add sin to sin. I sought after sin, hungered for it, and if the choice was to stay home and masturbate or go to church on Sunday, I would choose the flesh every time. I had no power or ability to overcome my desire to sin. If there was a choice to do good then sin won out every time. This sin, it being a destroyer, did what sin does, as the wages of sin is death.

Sounds like you had a good case of the hormones along with every other kid your age. That is why Christ gave us the gift of the sacrament of Reconciliation. Together with the Eucharist, you would have received strength. But those are tough years, years which I believe our Lord understands very well. In many ways you can chalk it up to immaturity. It is sin, nevertheless, and confession and absolution of those sins are absolutely necessary. We dont’ go to church because we are holy. We go to church because we are broken and in need of healing.

Yet, as all men are naturally created with the desire to live everlasting. God while making Himself known to me, worked within the desire that was given to all men to have eternal life with the knowledge and understanding that what I truly deserved was eternal death. What He offered was a free gift, that being His Son, Jesus Christ.

I’m with you 100%.

The gift was not presented to me as a second chance or a gift that could be taken away over and over when I sinned and then given back. But the gift was presented to me with the promise that it contained all things and it was everlasting no matter what I did or could ever do again. Absolutely Everything! And once the gift was opened, the gift would bloom forevermore and could not be killed by man or angel or any other heavenly power, because the gift was eternal life himself, Jesus Christ. And when I am disobedient, it continues to bloom, and when I without faith it blooms, and when I am undeserving, it blooms.

I don’t earn grace or loose grace by my obedient actions or sinfulness. I don’t cooperate with grace. Rather grace consumes me and overtakes me and changes my will from the desire to sin to the will to be obedient.

Well, now I’m confused. Are you saying you do not sin? I am also consumed by grace when I receive the Eucharist, the most intimate relationship possible on this earth. I consume Him and He consumes me; physically, spiritually and every way possible. I am consumed by Him to the degree that I surrender. I can go to Communion and receive no grace whatsoever if I am not spiritually disposed to receive. That is why some do not seem to derive any benefit from the sacrament. The graces are available, always. But I have a part to play in this also.

You have bought into the “Once Saved Always Saved” doctrine and I would just say that it is a very dangerous doctrine to follow. You certainly cannot claim to be free from sin. But, you say it doesn’t matter. You can’t lose grace by your sinfulness. But Jesus tells us that "…the one who perseveres to the end will be saved". (Mt 24:13) Paul tells us "See then, the kindness and severity of God; severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.. (Rom 11:22) We cannot remain in our sin and He has provided a way to escape it through the sacraments of the Catholic Church and our cooperation with the graces received through them. "If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgement and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries." (Heb 10:26-27) You really should re-think your position on this Rocket_Man. If Paul had to work out his salvation through “fear and trembling”, why not you?

God bless.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Well, now I’m confused. Are you saying you do not sin? I am also consumed by grace when I receive the Eucharist, the most intimate relationship possible on this earth. I consume Him and He consumes me; physically, spiritually and every way possible. I am consumed by Him to the degree that I surrender. I can go to Communion and receive no grace whatsoever if I am not spiritually disposed to receive. That is why some do not seem to derive any benefit from the sacrament. The graces are available, always. But I have a part to play in this also.

You have bought into the “Once Saved Always Saved” doctrine and I would just say that it is a very dangerous doctrine to follow. You certainly cannot claim to be free from sin. But, you say it doesn’t matter. You can’t lose grace by your sinfulness. But Jesus tells us that "…the one who perseveres to the end will be saved". (Mt 24:13) Paul tells us "See then, the kindness and severity of God; severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.. We cannot remain in our sin and He has provided a way to escape it through the sacraments of the Catholic Church and our cooperation with the graces received through them. "If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgement and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries." (Heb 10:26-27) You really should re-think your position on this Rocket_Man. If Paul had to work out his salvation through “fear and trembling”, why not you? God bless.

I do not claim to be free of sin. There is still sin that I hold on too and can’t overcome. He will purge that from me in His time. I don’t have the ability. I can try to do it on my own, it may last for a short time but without His purging I will fall back into the sin. I am being made Holy not that I am already perfect.

I haven’t bought into OSAS, I learned of Jesus Christ through reading scripture night after night and day after day and a continued crying my heart out to God in repentance. What was in the gift He offered is what I understood it to be and it was spoken to me by His love. The gift is something you open and once it is opened the promises contained within are carried out. Because the promises are spoken by the Most Holy God eternal. Who’s voice commands all thing into being. The promise contains the preservation, the working out, etc.

To the rest like Rom 11:22, Paul is writing about the election of the “corporate gentile church” and the grafting of Israel back into the vine. He wrote it with the intent to warn them not to be high minded towards Israel as they were the true vine.

In Heb 10:26-27, the author is writing about Jews who have learned of Christ and the sacrifice provided through His atonement. Having known this if the Jew returns to the old covenant system of sacrifice, there remains no more sacrifice for sin and a most certain judgment. This is the drive of the Book of Hebrews, the old covenant replaced with a new and better covenant through the atonement. Read the verse in such manner!

 

[Rocket_Man]

Hi Rocketman,
Your story is that of the Prodigal son. He really was the son of the Father, he then fell away and suffered a sort of spiritual death (the father said that he was dead to him). He was then graciously welcomed back by the father. He wasn’t born when the father welcomed him back. He was already a member of the family even before he fell away.

Likewise, you were born again into God’s family at baptism, you fell away, and then came back to God. Your conversion must have been a very powerful emotional experience (just as the prodigal son must have been elated to return home). To come back to God is a great thing. But just because the emotion happened then, and just because the reconciliation happened then, doesn’t mean that the regeneration didn’t happen earlier. Again, the prodigal son wasn’t born when he came back to the Father. He was already a member of the family.

You were a member of God’s family the whole time, and you were even a member in right standing with God until you were old enough to willfully reject him. You are quite right to say that you could not respond to God and dig yourself out of the hole alone. But God, just as a loving Father would, beckoned you back and did everything He could to get you to chose to come back home. But just as a Father wont force a wayward son to love him, neither will God. Likewise, a Father forgives his son anything, but when a son refuses forgiveness and is so deep in transgression, the Father can only wait and beckon him, and in the case of God, send his grace as an invitation to come back home.

The more you realize that the earthly father is a figure of our Father in heaven, the more you realize that the Catholic model makes sense. I have no doubt that the scriptures teach baptismal regeneration. I’m hoping to be done with an essay on baptismal regeneration very shortly. If you want, I can send you a personal message when I have it posted, so you can read it.

I like your analogy, but also in the story the prodigal knew His father and asked him for his share of his inheritance. No such knowing the Father in my case. Just an unregenerate sinner doing what the flesh desires. You can’t willfully reject someone you don’t know.

I would enjoy reading your paper so please let me know.

 

[elvisman]

Hi Rocketman,
Your story is that of the Prodigal son. He really was the son of the Father, he then fell away and suffered a sort of spiritual death (the father said that he was dead to him). He was then graciously welcomed back by the father. He wasn’t born when the father welcomed him back. He was already a member of the family even before he fell away.

Likewise, you were born again into God’s family at baptism, you fell away, and then came back to God. Your conversion must have been a very powerful emotional experience (just as the prodigal son must have been elated to return home). To come back to God is a great thing. But just because the emotion happened then, and just because the reconciliation happened then, doesn’t mean that the regeneration didn’t happen earlier. Again, the prodigal son wasn’t born when he came back to the Father. He was already a member of the family.

You were a member of God’s family the whole time, and you were even a member in right standing with God until you were old enough to willfully reject him. You are quite right to say that you could not respond to God and dig yourself out of the hole alone. But God, just as a loving Father would, beckoned you back and did everything He could to get you to chose to come back home. But just as a Father wont force a wayward son to love him, neither will God. Likewise, a Father forgives his son anything, but when a son refuses forgiveness and is so deep in transgression, the Father can only wait and beckon him, and in the case of God, send his grace as an invitation to come back home.

The more you realize that the earthly father is a figure of our Father in heaven, the more you realize that the Catholic model makes sense. I have no doubt that the scriptures teach baptismal regeneration. I’m hoping to be done with an essay on baptismal regeneration very shortly. If you want, I can send you a personal message when I have it posted, so you can read it.

Very well put.
The only thing I would change is that he didn’t exactly come home. There is only one home.
He came back to the neighborhood . . .

 

[Rocket_Man]

**Very well **put.
The only thing I would change is that he didn’t exactly come home. There is only one home.
He came back to the neighborhood . . .

Well we had the party anyway Elvisman, He called His friends and neighbors, how come you aren’t coming?

 

[SteveVH]

I do not claim to be free of sin. There is still sin that I hold on too and can’t overcome. He will purge that from me in His time. I don’t have the ability. I can try to do it on my own, it may last for a short time but without His purging I will fall back into the sin. I am being made Holy not that I am already perfect.

Well said. I think we could all agree with that. I notice you used the word “purging”. How do you feel about the final purging in Purgatory, or do you believe we can reach that state of holiness here on earth?

I haven’t bought into OSAS, I learned of Jesus Christ through reading scripture night after night and day after day and a continued crying my heart out to God in repentance. What was in the gift He offered is what I understood it to be and it was spoken to me by His love. The gift is something you open and once it is opened the promises contained within are carried out. Because the promises are spoken by the Most Holy God eternal. Who’s voice commands all thing into being. The promise contains the preservation, the working out, etc.

To the rest like Rom 11:22, Paul is writing about the election of the “corporate gentile church” and the grafting of Israel back into the vine. He wrote it with the intent to warn them not to be high minded towards Israel as they were the true vine.

In Heb 10:26-27, the author is writing about Jews who have learned of Christ and the sacrifice provided through His atonement. Having known this if the Jew returns to the old covenant system of sacrifice, there remains no more sacrifice for sin and a most certain judgment. This is the drive of the Book of Hebrews, the old covenant replaced with a new and better covenant through the atonement. Read the verse in such manner!

Well, you can put that spin on it if you wish, but it says what it says.

***“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgement and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.” *** (Heb 10:26-27)

That’s pretty clear to me, regardless to who he is speaking. He is speaking of Jesus’ sacrifice, not some animal sacrifice. He is speaking to them "after receiving knowledge of the truth" The point is one can know the truth, and squander it by returning to his old ways, whether Jew or Gentile. And they can both end up in hell.

 

[Carlan]

Well said. I think we could all agree with that. I notice you used the word “purging”. How do you feel about the final purging in Purgatory, or do you believe we can reach that state of holiness here on earth?

Well, you can put that spin on it if you wish, but it says what it says.

***“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgement and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.” *** (Heb 10:26-27)

That’s pretty clear to me, regardless to who he is speaking. He is speaking of Jesus’ sacrifice, not some animal sacrifice. He is speaking to them "after receiving knowledge of the truth" The point is one can know the truth, and squander it by returning to his old ways, whether Jew or Gentile. And they can both end up in hell.

Yep, and Christ gives us the best and easiest way to persevere in grace until the end which is through his seven grace filled Sacraments.Peace, Carlan

 

[Rocket_Man]

Well said. I think we could all agree with that. I notice you used the word “purging”. How do you feel about the final purging in Purgatory, or do you believe we can reach that state of holiness here on earth?

The purging comes from Psalm 65:

Iniquities prevail against me: as for our transgressions, thou shalt purge them away. Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

Well, you can put that spin on it if you wish, but it says what it says.

***“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgement and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.” *** (Heb 10:26-27)

That’s pretty clear to me, regardless to who he is speaking. He is speaking of Jesus’ sacrifice, not some animal sacrifice. He is speaking to them "after receiving knowledge of the truth" The point is one can know the truth, and squander it by returning to his old ways, whether Jew or Gentile. And they can both end up in hell.

It may seem to you that I am spinning the verse since you want to use if differently for your purpose. The author of Hebrews was a Jewish Christian who was writing to other Jewish brothers whom had an elevated knowledge of the Levitical priesthood and the temple ceremonies. The author is making an argument for the superiority of Christ and the old priesthood and sacrificial system being replaced with the new covenant. Early in Chapter two the author warns his audience: “How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him”. He then continues while arguing Christ’s superiority over the angels and begins contrasting the old priesthood and sacrificial system with the atonement offered by Jesus Christ while comparing the earthly resemblance with that of the heavenly altar. The old covenant has been replaced with the new and better covenant as Christ being the sinless High Priest from the order of Melchizedek having no beginning or end and after atoning for the sins of the world sat in authority forever on the right hand of God. He then encourages His audience by another comparison to the old sacrificial system when he instructs them “Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.” The picture of the High Priest sprinkling Israel with the hyssop dipped in blood and water. The author then repeats the same warning he made in Hebrews 2 with a similar. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins. The “we”, being the common bond with his Jewish brothers as the author was a Jew, the same “we” in chapter two. The “sin willfully” is to “neglect so great salvation”. The “we have received the knowledge of the truth” is the same as “which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him”. The “there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins” is the same as “How shall we escape” if one rejects the atonement made by Jesus Christ? And in this case it was his Jewish brother returning to the old covenant.system of sacrifice.

 

[SteveVH]

The purging comes from Psalm 65:

Iniquities prevail against me: as for our transgressions, thou shalt purge them away. Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

It may seem to you that I am spinning the verse since you want to use if differently for your purpose. The author of Hebrews was a Jewish Christian who was writing to other Jewish brothers whom had an elevated knowledge of the Levitical priesthood and the temple ceremonies. The author is making an argument for the superiority of Christ and the old priesthood and sacrificial system being replaced with the new covenant. Early in Chapter two the author warns his audience: “How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him”. He then continues while arguing Christ’s superiority over the angels and begins contrasting the old priesthood and sacrificial system with the atonement offered by Jesus Christ while comparing the earthly resemblance with that of the heavenly altar. The old covenant has been replaced with the new and better covenant as Christ being the sinless High Priest from the order of Melchizedek having no beginning or end and after atoning for the sins of the world sat in authority forever on the right hand of God. He then encourages His audience by another comparison to the old sacrificial system when he instructs them “Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.” The picture of the High Priest sprinkling Israel with the hyssop dipped in blood and water. The author then repeats the same warning he made in Hebrews 2 with a similar. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins. The “we”, being the common bond with his Jewish brothers as the author was a Jew, the same “we” in chapter two. The “sin willfully” is to “neglect so great salvation”. The “we have received the knowledge of the truth” is the same as “which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him”. The “there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins” is the same as “How shall we escape” if one rejects the atonement made by Jesus Christ? And in this case it was his Jewish brother returning to the old covenant.system of sacrifice.

And we reject the atonement made by Jesus Christ when we sin. The point is, it is not enough to accept Jesus once. We must persevere every day, pick up our cross and carry it. I understand what you are saying, I just don’t see how these verses contradict what I am saying.

 

[elvisman]

Well we had the party anyway Elvisman, He called His friends and neighbors, how come you aren’t coming?

When you finally DO come home - nobody will celebrate more than I will, brother.

 

[Matthew_P_Muehl]

I have known a great many Christians who do not follow Christ in their behavior. When I was a baptist, my pastor was charged with embezzlement. There have been a great many people who have felt regenerated after saying their sinners prayer, yet fell right back into sin. That high feeling didnt last & they had to actually DO something & didnt know what to do. They thought that things would just somehow fall into place. I have known people who believed that they are saved & it really doesnt matter what they do because they are saved.I have known many people who kick God out of their lives until they cant handle the mess they made & try to pray, or rather, demand He do what they want him to. If he doesnt, they get angry & denounce him.
I have known Catholics who are cultural Catholics. Their parents were & they received the sacraments but they didnt practice or go to Mass but 2 times a year. Their whole education amounted to time forced to attend to get their box checked & you didnt see them again. I have known Catholics who take no responsibility for educating themselves about their faith at all. They may or may not go to Mass. I have heard some actually say stuff like I can do that, I’ll just go to confession, as a joke.
(btw, going to drinking establishments is not sinful, only Protestants (some) have the idea that all drink is bad, Jesus drank wine & used it for the Last Supper. DRUNKENNESS is the sin)
We have had Presidents who proclaimed to be a follower of Christ while cheating on their wives & lying to the public (Catholic & non). We have people in society that like to put on their Christianity when it is convenient,& shed it when it is convenient.
We have also had Presidents who were good, honest men.
I have known some wonderful, solid Christians, who lived what they believed. They teach their children the same. They love the Lord. But I did not find my home with them. I said my sinner’s prayer, I was baptized as a kid. I lead a sinful, shameful life. I felt judged & looked down upon. I ran away from church & from Christ for years. I pushed away the great gift he wanted to give me. I had problems with promiscuity, drugs & drinking. I hated myself.
I felt drawn to Jesus, but I wanted to know which church to find him in. He grabbed a hold of me through my love of history. I was surprised to discover that Catholic/Orthodox were His church! So I investigated intellectually.
I have known some wonderful, solid, faithful Catholic Christians, who love the Lord & teach their children the same. I found my home there at the age of 32. I found acceptance & regeneration there. For the 1st time in my life, I felt forgiven. My 1st confession was hard but hearing those words, your sins are forgiven, I felt the weight of the world lift from my shoulders. When I go to Mass on Sunday, I receive that Eucharist with grateful thanks. When I was confirmed, I was given a gift that people find hard to believe. I was painfully shy & couldnt speak in front of crowds. Afterwards, I found that I could be a lector. I can stand at the podium & proclaim God’s word clearly & strongly, in a voice that bears no resemblance to my normal voice.

So basically, what I am trying to point out is this, your experience of dryness & renewal from Catholic to Protestant, is your experience. As you can see, mine is the exact opposite. Someone else has something else. Why does that then lead you to the idea that the church is somehow wrong about a doctrine because it was not that way for you? Can we not agree that God is wonderful & mysterious & his ways are not our ways? There are some people who just dont care to know Him because they are attached to the world, their are those who are ignorant of him, there are those who are stubborn & obstinate (guilty) & have to lose everything before they give up their will to His. God gave us His Son who gave us His Church who gave us His Scriptures & His Traditions. He also promised us that the gates of hell will not prevail against it. I will take that assurance over any personal interpretation made by fallible men any day

I’m late coming to this thread and just wanted to say that was a wonderful post!
I find it amazing all the bible study protestants/baptist do and yet learn almost nothing about the church that Christ gave us…
I guess they are only taught scriptures that lines up with their theology and discard the rest. It’s a shame that much of the truth is kept from these people and the keeping from them will have much to answer for…
God bless and thanks again for a great post

Matthew

 

[Rocket_Man]

And we reject the atonement made by Jesus Christ when we sin. The point is, it is not enough to accept Jesus once. We must persevere every day, pick up our cross and carry it. I understand what you are saying, I just don’t see how these verses contradict what I am saying.

Some of Jewish people the author was warning were sitting on the fence, playing religion. They were acting as Christians but while faced with persecution they were returning to the former sacrificials system for the forgiveness of sin. The author has just spent argument upon argument making it very clear to them that the old covenant has been replaced by the new. Having heard the goodness in the Gospel they were rejecting the mercy and forgiveness offered in the new covenant and considered the old to be still better. There was never an inner conversion in the heart of these people.

 

[elvisman]

It may seem to you that I am spinning the verse since you want to use if differently for your purpose. The author of Hebrews was a Jewish Christian who was writing to other Jewish brothers whom had an elevated knowledge of the Levitical priesthood and the temple ceremonies. The author is making an argument for the superiority of Christ and the old priesthood and sacrificial system being replaced with the new covenant. Early in Chapter two the author warns his audience: “How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him”. He then continues while arguing Christ’s superiority over the angels and begins contrasting the old priesthood and sacrificial system with the atonement offered by Jesus Christ while comparing the earthly resemblance with that of the heavenly altar. The old covenant has been replaced with the new and better covenant as Christ being the sinless High Priest from the order of Melchizedek having no beginning or end and after atoning for the sins of the world sat in authority forever on the right hand of God. He then encourages His audience by another comparison to the old sacrificial system when he instructs them “Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.” The picture of the High Priest sprinkling Israel with the hyssop dipped in blood and water. The author then repeats the same warning he made in Hebrews 2 with a similar. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins. The “we”, being the common bond with his Jewish brothers as the author was a Jew, the same “we” in chapter two. The “sin willfully” is to “neglect so great salvation”. The “we have received the knowledge of the truth” is the same as “which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him”. The “there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins” is the same as “How shall we escape” if one rejects the atonement made by Jesus Christ? And in this case it was his Jewish brother returning to the old covenant.system of sacrifice.

WRONG - if you know your Greek, that is.

The work used for knowledge in verse 26 is not simply a knowledge (Gnosis). No - the word used here is Epignosis, which is the full, experiential knowledge that a true believer has. He is speaking about TRUE believers who have been reborn in Christ - NOT “fence-sitters” as you assert.

**Nice try, though . . . **

 

[Rocket_Man]

And we reject the atonement made by Jesus Christ when we sin. The point is, it is not enough to accept Jesus once.

As I’ve tried to make it clear in earlier post, accepting Jesus’s work on the cross for the atonement of your sin is everything. As the “once” is the seed that generates the necessary graces that overcome your human will to sin and transform you to do His will instead. It’s a bending from doing the deeds of your old nature and the willing to do the new although your old man still hangs on. Before being converted I had no willingess and even if I had been willing, I had no ability. The ability I do have today is because He has through grace purged that sin from me and I live to be further purged of the sin I hold near. I am wholly and solely depended upon Him and His molding.

I would assume that when I pass on the humaness I inherited in this corrutable body will finnally cease as final judgement for sin has been rendered on this corrutable body through death. There will be no further need to purge the old man because the old man is finally dead.

The problem that you have with the “once” is that for some it hasn’t had any noticable effect. Just as I have tried to fustrate my infant baptism as having any noticable effect.

 

[Rocket_Man]

WRONG - if you know your Greek, that is.

The work used for knowledge in verse 26 is not simply a knowledge (Gnosis). No - the word used here is Epignosis, which is the full, experiential knowledge that a true believer has. He is speaking about TRUE believers who have been reborn in Christ - NOT “fence-sitters” as you assert.

Nice try, though . . .

Your right and wrong. They had been given all the grace and full knowledge as you say to accept the invitation. But full experiential knowledge doesn’t make one a Christian. And like Judas they choose to trample on it instead by returning to the old religious system. That is why it is impossible to renew them. How much more grace can God give someone than the complete enlightement in their being of knowing the Christ through the Gospel? If they won’t come to Him with full enlightment, than there is nothing God can do.

 

[elvisman]

Your right and wrong. They had been given all the grace and full knowledge as you say to accept the invitation. But full experiential knowledge doesn’t make one a Christian. And like Judas they choose to trample on it instead by returning to the old religious system. That is why it is impossible to renew them. How much more grace can God give someone than the complete enlightement in their being of knowing the Christ through the Gospel? If they won’t come to Him with full enlightment, than there is nothing God can do.

You’re changing your position Rocket.
You said that this verse in Hebrews was speaking to Jews who heard Christ and rejected him. You referred to them as fence-sitters.

Epignosis** means that they are ****true **believers and have ad a full, experiential knowledge. A full, experiential knowledge is a regenerated person.
As for Judas - he had an Epignosis of Christ. He cast out demons and healed the sick in Jesus’ name.

---

In Matt. 5:14, Jesus told the Apostles (INCLUDING Judas), “You are the light of the world. A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden.”

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In Matt. 18:18, Jesus told the Apostles (INCLUDING Judas), “Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

---

To say that Judas didn’t have an Epignosis of Christ is to deny the Scriptures.
To say the the author of Hebrew ISN’T speaking about true, regenerated believers is to hide your head in the sand . . .**

 

[Rocket_Man]

You’re changing your position Rocket**.**
You said that this verse in Hebrews was speaking to Jews who heard Christ and rejected him. You referred to them as fence-sitters.

Epignosis** means that they are ****true **believers and have ad a full, experiential knowledge. A full, experiential knowledge is a regenerated person.
As for Judas - he had an Epignosis of Christ. He cast out demons and healed the sick in Jesus’ name.

---

**In Matt. 5:14, Jesus told the Apostles (**INCLUDING Judas), “You are the light of the world. A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden.”

---

In Matt. 18:18, Jesus told the Apostles (INCLUDING Judas), “Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

---

To say that Judas didn’t have an Epignosis of Christ is to deny the Scriptures.
To say the the author of Hebrew ISN’T** speaking about true, regenerated believers is to hide your head in the sand . . .

Elvisman, I’m changing nothing. You need to let the author of Hebrews speak like a laywer making his case. They were fence sitters, they had been given the full knowledge of the Gospel but had not come to Christ. While under the direct pursecution from other Jews they were falling back into the old system.

I’m sorry you don’t like it, but that is what the Epsitle holds for us. There is a real conversion that takes place in the hearts of a real believers. Maybe what your lacking is the understanding of the invitation.

“But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.”