How is one regenerated?

[Rocket_Man]

You have a terrible understanding not only of the Commandments but also of Sanctifying Grace and God’s nature.

The Commandments are not an arbitrary “system”; they stem dirctly from God’s eternal nature. They are true because God is Truth.

Where did I ever say they were arbitrary? Where did I ever say they were not true? Where did I ever say they do not stem from God’s nature?

The Commandments have not changed. Rather our relationship to them has changed from the time when we were without Christ. Wherein before the Commandments convicted sin to bring us to death and acceptance of God’s mercy in Christ Jesus, now as partakers of His mercy we are free of the Law’s wrath. But understand that I am not saying that man is free to live lawlessly. If a man continues to produce habitual sin then these acts would be contrary to the nature and ministry of Christ. Jesus came into the world to take away sin and in Him is no sin. One who believes in Christ purifies himself as He is pure. The Commandment has gone internal in Christ and we serve Him in the newness of Spirit, having the love of God shed in our hearts.

We can follow the commandments because by virtue of the sacraments we are filled with Sanctifying Grace(Divine Life). The Israelites did not have this because God did not send them the Holy Spirit until Pentecost.

Israel did not have this because they thought that Holiness was something that could be achieved rather than desiring God’s mercy and so He hardened them. Doing so He could make His mercy known to the worst of sinners who desired His mercy and provoke Israel to jealously. Our sanctification begins when we accept His mercy, Jesus Christ, into our hearts. Just as those of old who believed in the one who was to come were sanctified.

continued in the next post…

 

[Rocket_Man]

Salvation as the mere “covering up” of sin is an unbiblical notion. God does not merely cover over our sin as with a blanket. Through Sanctifying Grace and adherence to the Law of Grace we are actually made perfect through this Grace.

And where in the Bible does Jesus command us only to “accept”? I do know of several places where He commands us to “do” as in “do this in remembrance of me”. How do you expalin this?..

There was a man living in a desert being scorched daily by the light of the overhead sun. He soon noticed after the sun had passed over him and into the western sky that it would burn gloriful with color. He said to himself, “I will go and follow the sun until it takes me to the spot that I may also live under it’s glory.” So he packed all that he had and followed the sun. He walked for days, and days became months, and months turned to years. But instead of coming closer and under it’s glory the sun’s scorching light followed him everywhere he went. So it is with every one walking after the Commandments as if through working them glory can be achieved. God’s purpose for them to us is that they are unattainable and endlessly Holy as He is Holy, hoping that all will rest in His mercy, Jesus Christ.

 

[Rocket_Man]

You still show a terrible understanding of Catholic theology. If what you say is true no Catholic would ever attend another Mass beyond the Sacraments of initiation.

To say that would be utterly absurd. To assume that “Their dependence is on Christ mercy but only when they fall short otherwise they remain righteous” is begging the question, assuming that you know what is in the hearts of Catholics across the globe.

As I said earlier, when men refuse to accept His mercy they begin to invent ways to remain righteous before Him is so that through those acts they may justify themselves. The acts themselves become their religion. Knowing that men seek justification the church delivers the acts for profit that it may line it’s pillars with gold rather than teaching men where they may find mercy. Just the same as in the old days your church has gone astray.

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

Where did I ever say they were arbitrary? Where did I ever say they were not true? Where did I ever say they do not stem from God’s nature?

The Commandments have not changed. Rather our relationship to them has changed from the time when we were without Christ. Wherein before the Commandments convicted sin to bring us to death and acceptance of God’s mercy in Christ Jesus, now as partakers of His mercy we are free of the Law’s wrath. But understand that I am not saying that man is free to live lawlessly. If a man continues to produce habitual sin then these acts would be contrary to the nature and ministry of Christ. Jesus came into the world to take away sin and in Him is no sin. One who believes in Christ purifies himself as He is pure. The Commandment has gone internal in Christ and we serve Him in the newness of Spirit, having the love of God shed in our hearts.

You claimed that the Ten Commandments was an external code. This is false. Being made in the image and likeness of God, i.e. having a rational human soul, God has written His law into all of our hearts. Hence Paul writes in Romans 2:
"[6]** For he will render to every man according to his works**:
[7] to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
[8] but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.
[9] There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek,
[10] but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.
[11] For God shows no partiality.
[12] All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.
[13] **For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. **
[14] When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
[15]They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them
[16] on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

To believe in Christ is to believe in and DO all that He taught and commanded us to do.

Israel did not have this because they thought that Holiness was something that could be achieved rather than desiring God’s mercy and so He hardened them. Doing so He could make His mercy known to the worst of sinners who desired His mercy and provoke Israel to jealously. Our sanctification begins when we accept His mercy, Jesus Christ, into our hearts. Just as those of old who believed in the one who was to come were sanctified.

You really have alot of flawed understandings of Jewish history. I do not have the time to explain it here. To claim that the Israelites did not seek God’s mercy through the only means that they knew how to is begging the question.

Where in the Bible does it say that all that we need to do to “accept His mercy” is “to accept Jesus as our personal Lord and Savior”?

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

I posted:…

Salvation as the mere “covering up” of sin is an unbiblical notion. God does not merely cover over our sin as with a blanket. Through Sanctifying Grace and adherence to the Law of Grace we are actually made perfect through this Grace.

And where in the Bible does Jesus command us only to “accept”? I do know of several places where He commands us to “do” as in “do this in remembrance of me”. How do you expalin this?..

You replied:…

There was a man living in a desert being scorched daily by the light of the overhead sun. He soon noticed after the sun had passed over him and into the western sky that it would burn gloriful with color. He said to himself, “I will go and follow the sun until it takes me to the spot that I may also live under it’s glory.” So he packed all that he had and followed the sun. He walked for days, and days became months, and months turned to years. But instead of coming closer and under it’s glory the sun’s scorching light followed him everywhere he went. So it is with every one walking after the Commandments as if through working them glory can be achieved. God’s purpose for them to us is that they are unattainable and endlessly Holy as He is Holy, hoping that all will rest in His mercy, Jesus Christ.

While this may be according to you a fine story it does not answer my question. There is nothing from the Bible, all I see is your opinion. Could you please answer my question?

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

As I said earlier, when men refuse to accept His mercy they begin to invent ways to remain righteous before Him is so that through those acts they may justify themselves. The acts themselves become their religion. Knowing that men seek justification the church delivers the acts for profit that it may line it’s pillars with gold rather than teaching men where they may find mercy. Just the same as in the old days your church has gone astray.

I converted from atheism to the Church. I went to atheism because of Protesantism. Never once-from the time I entered the RCIA to today-have I ever gotten a bill from the Church for the sacraments that I had received at Easter Vigil, to all of the times I have received the Eucharist and the times I have been to Confession. The above is the typical anti-Catholic rant. If you are trying to convince me of the truth of Protestantism you are not doing a very good job to back up your claim.

Now we get to the heart of your objection-the Church. Your not objecting to the Church on Biblical grounds or even factual grounds, you just object to an “idea”-your preconceived notion- to what you think the Church is. I sense that you feel personally wronged by the Church because it didn’t “feed” you as you thought it should. Although you yourself have admitted that becuase of your youth you did nothing to foster your faith, that you lived the life that you wanted to live; is it fair to blame the Church for your failure to tend your spiritual garden?

To cover this objection would be to derail the topic at hand. If you wish to treat with it start another thread an I’m sure many, myself included, would love to discuss this with you.

Secondly, and forgive me if I’m wrong, you seem to implicitly assert that the Catholic Church invented baptism, the Eucharist, Confession, Confirmation, and the other sacraments and their effects as merely a means to make “profits”. If the Church is as Paul repeatedly says “the Body of Christ”-the physical manifestation of Christ on earth-then Christ has ordained that His mercy be given through the ministers of His Church through His grace that resides in the sacraments.

So are you asserting that Jesus didn’t command us to do these things? If so where is your biblical proof?

 

[Carlan]

As I said earlier, when men refuse to accept His mercy they begin to invent ways to remain righteous before Him is so that through those acts they may justify themselves. The acts themselves become their religion. Knowing that men seek justification the church delivers the acts for profit that it may line it’s pillars with gold rather than teaching men where they may find mercy. Just the same as in the old days your church has gone astray.

Rocket, Catholic Answer forums are here for all to learn and discover the whole Truth of Christ’s revelation which He commissioned his Apostles to hand on down through His Church until he returns again.
You as a Baptized and now an anti- Catholic are not invited here to proselytize the doctrine of men such as the lawyer Calvin and others, or your own wrong and misinformed ideas.The dust has been shaken from our sandals.
Harsh? yes! I will continue to pray God’s will.Peace, Carlan

 

[Rocket_Man]

You claimed that the Ten Commandments was an external code. This is false. Being made in the image and likeness of God, i.e. having a rational human soul, God has written His law into all of our hearts. Hence Paul writes in Romans 2:
"[6]** For he will render to every man according to his works**:
[7] to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
[8] but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.
[9] There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek,
[10] but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.
[11] For God shows no partiality.
[12] All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.
[13] **For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. **
[14] When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
[15]They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them
[16] on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

Paul is building a case by instructing his Jewish brothers in the faith that although they were given the law of circumcision, ordinances, and the Holy Commandments they were not any better off than the Gentile. As you supplied above in the scripture verses, having been given the whole law written on stone the Jew was not any better for having heard the whole law read over and over and not doing than the gentile who had not heard the whole law but had obeyed from the heart the partial light they had been given. The argument comes to a conclusion when Paul states “For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.”

You do need to be careful when pulling from within this argument your idea that working the law is the passage of salvation. Rather it is with the heart man believes unto righteousness and with the lips confession is made onto salvation. Through these alone will every man’s work be evident and judged righteously.

 

[Rocket_Man]

I converted from atheism to the Church. I went to atheism because of Protesantism. Never once-from the time I entered the RCIA to today-have I ever gotten a bill from the Church for the sacraments that I had received at Easter Vigil, to all of the times I have received the Eucharist and the times I have been to Confession. The above is the typical anti-Catholic rant. If you are trying to convince me of the truth of Protestantism you are not doing a very good job to back up your claim.

We have seen with our own eyes the priest come into the nursing home to visit the wealthy widows and pass over the rooms of catholic poor. Do you think they would really send you a bill? Tell me, do they still publish the annual givings of the parish members for all to be seen?

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

Paul is building a case by instructing his Jewish brothers in the faith that although they were given the law of circumcision, ordinances, and the Holy Commandments they were not any better off than the Gentile. As you supplied above in the scripture verses, having been given the whole law written on stone the Jew was not any better for having heard the whole law read over and over and not doing than the gentile who had not heard the whole law but had obeyed from the heart the partial light they had been given. The argument comes to a conclusion when Paul states “For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.”

You do need to be careful when pulling from within this argument your idea that working the law is the passage of salvation. Rather it is with the heart man believes unto righteousness and with the lips confession is made onto salvation. Through these alone will every man’s work be evident and judged righteously.

I don’t need to be careful of anything because I have the 2000 year witness of the Church that gives me assurance that I am standing in the truth(1 Tim 3:15).

Paul is not writing to “Jewish brothers” in his letter to the Romans. He is writing " To all God’s beloved in Rome, who are called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."(Rom 1:7). These are already Christians that he is writing to.

You take Rom 10 out of context, these verses are directed to those who-according to your Protestant understanding-have already been saved.

I never asserted any type of “works alone” salvation because the Church doesn’t teach “works alone” salvation. If it did, show me from the Catechism where it teaches “works alone” salvation and I will leave the Church. Good luck.

You are trying to push in your ignorance this false dichotomy that either only good works save-that you erroneously assert is the Catholic position- or faith alone saves. As both Paul and James testify “we are saved by grace through faith” and “faith without works is dead.”

** It is not either “works” or “faith”; it is both “works” and “faith”.**-That is the Biblical truth.

Paul writes that the only thing that matters “is faith working through love.”

Jesus himself says that if we do not forgive others their trespasses the Father in Heaven will not forgive us our trespasses. Is not forgiveness “a work”?

In fact isn’t the very act of faith a “work” of the human intellect?

Do I need to list the litany of Bible verses that show that we will be judged by our works, our acts, what we do?

 

[Rocket_Man]

Where in the Bible does it say that all that we need to do to “accept His mercy” is “to accept Jesus as our personal Lord and Savior”?

Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

We have seen with our own eyes the priest come into the nursing home to visit the wealthy widows and pass over the rooms of catholic poor.

I see a lot of prejudice in this statement…

Who is “we”? How do you know that he is “passing over” as you put it over the “Catholic poor” only just to vist the “wealthy widows”? How do you know that he wasn’t called for a specific reason? How do you know that he didn’t already attend to them? How do you know what is in his heart as he comes into the home to begin with?

Do you think they would really send you a bill? Tell me, do they still publish the annual givings of the parish members for all to be seen?

You said they only seek “profit”, logic would dictate that is that’s all it was I would either be billed or they would require COD. They have never asked for such and I have never given such payment for such. It seems that you want to find reasons to justify a feeling that you already hold. Pretty much the same way you interpret the Bible…

As far as “annual givings of the parish members” I have never seen that in my parish bulletin.

Let me ask you, do you honestly believe that the Pope, Bishops, or even the local Pastors are ordering such “lists” to be printed? Or-if such lists are being printed-is it possible that these lists are being printed-albeit erroneously-by the local Parish lay councils?

If it is happening in other parishes I would invite Catholics to run for parish council to remove such people who do these kind of things.

If that possiblity be true is it fair to blame the entire Church for the bad witness of it members? Does it immediately follow that the Church’s doctrines are false based on this?

If a Protesant pastor-or even a congregant-steals money from his congregation would it be right for me to condemn all of Protestantism based solely on this act? Does this act make the it’s doctrines false?

I didn’t leave Protestantism because “all that they ask for is money”’(even though they are not shy in their own right when asking for support from congregants). I left Protestantism for atheism because of inconsistencies in teachings, abuse of the Bible, and erroneous interpretations.

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Sorry, that does not say “all that you need to do to be saved is accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior.”

Where is the verse in the Bible that says this?

 

[Third_Day]

How can a person who was baptized as an infant in the CC, confirmed through the laying of hands of the diocese bishop, received the communion sacrament, received eighteen years of catholic education, served continuously as an alter boy, and gone through the ritual of confession before a priest, not know Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior? !

The answer is simple. I’m surprised you missed it.
Titus 3:1-5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us**, by **the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior. That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

You were regenerated and justified by His grace in baptism.

Throughout your life you freely choose to resist His grace.

“You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit” Acts 7:51

 

[Rocket_Man]

I don’t need to be careful of anything because I have the 2000 year witness of the Church that gives me assurance that I am standing in the truth(1 Tim 3:15).

Paul is not writing to “Jewish brothers” in his letter to the Romans. He is writing " To all God’s beloved in Rome, who are called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."(Rom 1:7). These are already Christians that he is writing to.

I wrote “Jewish brothers ** in the faith**”. Sorry it didn’t clearly stand out for you that way. While the epistle is to all, both Gentile and Jewish believer, Paul addresses those who are Jewish Christians in this argument.

Romans 2:17 “Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God”

He does the same in Romans 7 when he writes: “Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?”

You take Rom 10 out of context, these verses are directed to those who-according to your Protestant understanding-have already been saved.

If I am out of context, then please explain these to me in context that I may understand rather than accusing.

 

[Rocket_Man]

I never asserted any type of “works alone” salvation because the Church doesn’t teach “works alone” salvation. If it did, show me from the Catechism where it teaches “works alone” salvation and I will leave the Church. Good luck.

You are trying to push in your ignorance this false dichotomy that either only good works save-that you erroneously assert is the Catholic position- or faith alone saves. As both Paul and James testify “we are saved by grace through faith” and “faith without works is dead.”

** It is not either “works” or “faith”; it is both “works” and “faith”.**-That is the Biblical truth.

I’m not pushing this as you say. While I think it’s necessary to separate the two in order to define them in the plan of salvation, I do think they are inseparable in the life of a true believer. While Abraham believed God and it was accounted to Him as righteousness, so we also believe and do the works of Abraham. Our faith is made evident in our works else faith would be dead.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Let me ask you, do you honestly believe that the Pope, Bishops, or even the local Pastors are ordering such “lists” to be printed? Or-if such lists are being printed-is it possible that these lists are being printed-albeit erroneously-by the local Parish lay councils?

If it is happening in other parishes I would invite Catholics to run for parish council to remove such people who do these kind of things.

Back when my parents were still members of the Catholic Church, my niece was attending a Catholic elementary school. The classroom she was in had a reading hour where the children were instructed to go to the library and pick out a book. Instead, my niece would reach into her book bag and read her Bible. This came to a head when the teacher asked my niece to put the Bible away and go to the library and get a book. To which she rejected and was grabbed by the arm and escorted to the principal’s office. Fortunately the principal wasn’t there and while the teacher was out looking for her, my niece picked up the office phone and called my mother.

My father, who’s heritage before him included a long time diocese bishop and several regional parish priests could not understand how an institution that was supposed to the the mirror of Jesus wouldn’t allow a girl to read a Bible. He asked to be heard by the church council and at the meeting a Monsignor also attended. To my dad’s surprise the council upheld the schools position that a Bible couldn’t be read in the classroom and the Monsignor blessed the decision. Needless to say their decision was the passage of my parents finally leaving the church.

I quizzed my parents on this incident to make sure that my niece wasn’t given a reading assignment in a literature class rather than it being a general reading time like a study hall. I was assured by them that it was a study time and the teacher had the students to go to the library to pick out a book to occupy their time to stay out of trouble.

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

I wrote “Jewish brothers ** in the faith**”. Sorry it didn’t clearly stand out for you that way. While the epistle is to all, both Gentile and Jewish believer, Paul addresses those who are Jewish Christians in this argument.

Romans 2:17 “Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God”

He does the same in Romans 7 when he writes: “Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?”

You are making my point for me…

If I am out of context, then please explain these to me in context that I may understand rather than accusing.

In Rome the Emperor was the Lord, the Savior of the world, and the Father of the people. The Emperor deemed himself a god and demanded worship. To profess that someone else was Lord or Savior of the world was not only to be a traitor of Rome but an atheist-both punishable by death by either beheading if your were a Roman citizen or crucifixtion if your were not.

Jews in Rome were turning in Christians who professed their faith in Christ as traitors to the Emperor.

Paul was reassuring Christians in Rome who were afraid of persecution and would not profess their faith in Christ.

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

Back when my parents were still members of the Catholic Church, my niece was attending a Catholic elementary school. The classroom she was in had a reading hour where the children were instructed to go to the library and pick out a book. Instead, my niece would reach into her book bag and read her Bible. This came to a head when the teacher asked my niece to put the Bible away and go to the library and get a book. To which she rejected and was grabbed by the arm and escorted to the principal’s office. Fortunately the principal wasn’t there and while the teacher was out looking for her, my niece picked up the office phone and called my mother.

My father, who’s heritage before him included a long time diocese bishop and several regional parish priests could not understand how an institution that was supposed to the the mirror of Jesus wouldn’t allow a girl to read a Bible. He asked to be heard by the church council and at the meeting a Monsignor also attended. To my dad’s surprise the council upheld the schools position that a Bible couldn’t be read in the classroom and the Monsignor blessed the decision. Needless to say their decision was the passage of my parents finally leaving the church.

I quizzed my parents on this incident to make sure that my niece wasn’t given a reading assignment in a literature class rather than it being a general reading time like a study hall. I was assured by them that it was a study time and the teacher had the students to go to the library to pick out a book to occupy their time to stay out of trouble.

When did this happen?

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

I’m not pushing this as you say. While I think it’s necessary to separate the two in order to define them in the plan of salvation, I do think they are inseparable in the life of a true believer. While Abraham believed God and it was accounted to Him as righteousness, so we also believe and do the works of Abraham. Our faith is made evident in our works else faith would be dead.

And this is where we differ. You think it necessary to seperate the two in order to define them in the plan of salvation.

I, and the Church, as testified to in the Bible believe that they are inexorably linked, brought to fulfillment, and made even efficacious by God’s grace. We could not have faith and we could not work without God working in us first to will us to faith and to good works.

When the priest does the “work” of Christ in baptism it is Christ who baptizes, it is Christ and the Father who willed that person to be baptized and drew them to the priest to be baptized. God’s “mercy” had already been given way before the person had accepted it, but he was not saved until the baptism was done(1 Pet 3:21; Rom 6).