How is the LDS a cult? Part 2

[aspirant]

Another thing that you seem to be forgetting/ignoring is that if they don’t tithe, they don’t go to the temple. If they don’t go to the temple, they don’t get their ordinances done. If they don’t get their ordinances done, they don’t get to go to the Celestial Kingdom.

I have no idea why you think I am either forgetting or ignoring this, but it appears you’re not reading what I’m writing.

Your examples all came from their website right? …Do you think they’re going to put themselves in a bad light on their own website?

None of them were from the LDS Church’s website, they were from a variety of Mormon websites, mostly forums. (I think their biggest weakness was not that they were official, but that they were not.)

If you want to do that of your own accord, then bravo for you. How would you like to be called in by your pastor every year and discuss your financial situation?

Since I am morally obligated to do it of my own accord, as we all are, I don’t think it deserves any special praise. And I wouldn’t be terribly surprised if a priest did bring up contributing in confession, since priests frequently do assist penitents with examination of conscience (especially this time of year). I’ve certainly been asked far more personal questions in the sacrament of reconciliation!

Really, now you want we mean by the word “is” ala Bill Clinton?

I’m saying that the best way to advance a conversation on the stated topic would be to clarify what it is we’re talking about. You seem to think I’m not serious, but I am trying to follow Socrates’ lead to some extent. You said “the dictionary definition” as if there’s only one that everyone understands and agrees to, but that’s simply not the case. Here are some dictionary definitions of cult:

A system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.
or, similarly
A group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
A group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.

Is Mormonism a cult? According to these definitions, yes. So are most other religions, including Christianity.

**A relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister.
**

Is Mormonism a cult? According to this definition, no; it’s not a small group. There are millions of LDS around the world.

A religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious.

Is Mormonism a cult? According to this definition, Catholics would regard it as a cult. But this, like the latter part of the preceding definition, is a relative definition: Any religion may be and probably is a cult from someone’s perspective. I know ours is.

A system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator.

I think this one is intended to be a looser usage, not necessarily a reference to religion, as might be applied to something like the Atkins Diet. Still, it could be applied to a religion such as Christian Science. According to this definition, Mormonism is not a cult. (Unless, perhaps, one was to regard “sin” as a disease, in which case both Mormonism and Christianity are cults.)

An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.

As with the definition above, I don’t think this definition is intended primarily for religions. I think it’s intended to refer to folks such as “Rocky Horror Picture Show” devotees and Trekkies. Mormonism is not this sort of cult.

An organized group of people, religious or not, with whom you disagree.

This one is (and, I think, is intended to be) amusing. Is Mormonism a cult? According to this definition, sure. But, as above, it’s a relative definition: Any religion may be and probably is a cult from someone’s perspective.

“Cult” is not a word with just one definition. If we really mean to take the question posed by the thread seriously, we should probably be working with a common, agreed-upon definition.

The Catholic Church tends to use “cult” in positive contexts, such as “the cult of St. Nicholas” or “the Eucharistic cult.” Even when the word is used in a negative context, the term itself is not loaded with negative connotations, as in “{morality} rejects a neo-pagan notion that tends to promote the cult of the body.”

So I think we ought to look somewhere other than dictionaries for a useful definition, and we’ll probably have to look somewhere other than Catholic Church teaching for definition with negative connotations.

Perhaps we might use one such as this, suggested by a Christianity Today writer:
Marshall Shelley:

A religious group that is:

1. Exclusive. They may say, “We’re the only ones with the truth; everyone else is wrong; and if you leave our group your salvation is in danger.”
2. Secretive. Certain teachings are not available to outsiders or they’re presented only to certain members, sometimes after taking vows of confidentiality.
3. Authoritarian. A human leader expects total loyalty and unquestioned obedience.

A definition such as this might actually get us somewhere, even if we don’t all end up agreeing whether and to what extent Mormonism is cultish.

 

[Marie5890]

OT, with the changed publication of the Mormon scriptures, every Mormon will be out buying new, expensive, scriptures again. I’m thinking the shoplifting increases.

I don’t mean this as a dig on Mormons, every retailer experiences theft. I just always thought it was ironic to steal scriptures.

LOL…yea, that is ironic.

My first two years at BYU (early 80s) the beginning of each school year the women would get a talk by one of the BYU police on what to do if they are raped or in danger of being raped.

And by that time they were urging girls NOT to do as Kimball suggest in MoF.

 

[Lochias]

Huh? Where did I say that lying, in the LDS church gets you into heaven?

It was implied, whether you meant it to be or otherwise…

People enter the temple unworthly. People partake of communion and are not in a state of grace.

So…you do admit that you have to pay money in the Mormon “church” in order to get to Heaven? So that you can enter the temple in a “worthy” manner?

 

[Marie5890]

It was implied, whether you meant it to be or otherwise…

So…you do admit that you have to pay money in the Mormon “church” in order to get to Heaven? So that you can enter the temple in a “worthy” manner?

I didnt imply anything.

A Mormon has to claim that you are a full tithe payer to get into the temple amongst other things.

Are you surprised that people enter the temple unworthily?

Some of you seem to be struggling with this one, the way non-Catholics seem to think Catholics worship Mary and statue.

No, we Catholics dont worship Mary and other statues
And No, Mormons dont think when they go to the temple they are entering Heaven.

 

[Lochias]

I didnt imply anything.

A Mormon has to claim that you are a full tithe payer to get into the temple amongst other things.

Are you surprised that people enter the temple unworthily?

Some of you seem to be struggling with this one, the way non-Catholics seem to think Catholics worship Mary and statue.

The two are not equal; they’re not even close. The Catholic Church isn’t forcing ANYONE to stay out of Church unless they pay money.

People can spin it any way they want, but the bottom line is: If you’re Mormon and you don’t pay your tithes, you don’t see the face of God, according to their belief.

Absolutely reeks of being a cult, to me.

 

[Stephen168]

It is their responsiblity though. TRs were good for 2 years. A person doesnt go thru a temple recommend interview each time they want to go to the temple.

So in those two years, even if a person got one worthily, they then could end up sinning in such a way that they would not be temple worthy.

If one was paying a full tithe, living the WoW, etc etc, at the time of the interview, gets their TR, and they say a year later, hasnt been paying a full tithe, etc or drinking coffee, they still have their TR and can enter the temple.

Examining one’s conscience about one’s worthiness is still expected just like we are expected to examine ours before partaking of Communion

I still find the fact there is a TR interview creepy, but not why I would call them a cult. I think a cult is:

A group that irrationally follows a person.

 

[twopekinguys]

I have no idea why you think I am either forgetting or ignoring this, but it appears you’re not reading what I’m writing.

None of them were from the LDS Church’s website, they were from a variety of Mormon websites, mostly forums. (I think their biggest weakness was not that they were official, but that they were not.)

Since I am morally obligated to do it of my own accord, as we all are, I don’t think it deserves any special praise. And I wouldn’t be terribly surprised if a priest did bring up contributing in confession, since priests frequently do assist penitents with examination of conscience (especially this time of year). I’ve certainly been asked far more personal questions in the sacrament of reconciliation!

I’m saying that the best way to advance a conversation on the stated topic would be to clarify what it is we’re talking about. You seem to think I’m not serious, but I am trying to follow Socrates’ lead to some extent. You said “the dictionary definition” as if there’s only one that everyone understands and agrees to, but that’s simply not the case. Here are some dictionary definitions of cult:

A system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.
or, similarly
A group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
A group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.

Is Mormonism a cult? According to these definitions, yes. So are most other religions, including Christianity.

**A relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister.
**

Is Mormonism a cult? According to this definition, no; it’s not a small group. There are millions of LDS around the world.

A religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious.

Is Mormonism a cult? According to this definition, Catholics would regard it as a cult. But this, like the latter part of the preceding definition, is a relative definition: Any religion may be and probably is a cult from someone’s perspective. I know ours is.

A system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator.

I think this one is intended to be a looser usage, not necessarily a reference to religion, as might be applied to something like the Atkins Diet. Still, it could be applied to a religion such as Christian Science. According to this definition, Mormonism is not a cult. (Unless, perhaps, one was to regard “sin” as a disease, in which case both Mormonism and Christianity are cults.)

An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.

As with the definition above, I don’t think this definition is intended primarily for religions. I think it’s intended to refer to folks such as “Rocky Horror Picture Show” devotees and Trekkies. Mormonism is not this sort of cult.

An organized group of people, religious or not, with whom you disagree.

This one is (and, I think, is intended to be) amusing. Is Mormonism a cult? According to this definition, sure. But, as above, it’s a relative definition: Any religion may be and probably is a cult from someone’s perspective.

“Cult” is not a word with just one definition. If we really mean to take the question posed by the thread seriously, we should probably be working with a common, agreed-upon definition.

The Catholic Church tends to use “cult” in positive contexts, such as “the cult of St. Nicholas” or “the Eucharistic cult.” Even when the word is used in a negative context, the term itself is not loaded with negative connotations, as in “{morality} rejects a neo-pagan notion that tends to promote the cult of the body.”

So I think we ought to look somewhere other than dictionaries for a useful definition, and we’ll probably have to look somewhere other than Catholic Church teaching for definition with negative connotations.

Perhaps we might use one such as this, suggested by a Christianity Today writer:

A definition such as this might actually get us somewhere, even if we don’t all end up agreeing whether and to what extent Mormonism is cultish.

you are trying to over analyze everything.
it really isn’t that difficult
you can’t see the forest for the trees

 

[Marie5890]

I still find the fact there is a TR interview creepy, but not why I would call them a cult. I think a cult is:

I agree with the irrationally following a person as being a cult, in a non-Catholic definition

(“cult” in Catholic theology is different for those who may not know. It’s actually something looked for when it comes to causes of canonization)

 

[twopekinguys]

The two are not equal; they’re not even close. The Catholic Church isn’t forcing ANYONE to stay out of Church unless they pay money.

People can spin it any way they want, but the bottom line is: If you’re Mormon and you don’t pay your tithes, you don’t see the face of God, according to their belief.

Absolutely reeks of being a cult, to me.

we have a winner

 

[Marie5890]

The two are not equal; they’re not even close. The Catholic Church isn’t forcing ANYONE to stay out of Church unless they pay money.

People can spin it any way they want, but the bottom line is: If you’re Mormon and you don’t pay your tithes, you don’t see the face of God, according to their belief.

Absolutely reeks of being a cult, to me.

Lets be clear,

Mormons, regardless of paying a full tithe or not, are not forced out of their wards.
They are denied TRs, which they renew every 2 years.

If they have one already they still have access to the temples, however, even if they havent paid tithing. What kind of conscience they have at that point will play a role in whether or not they go.

 

[Marie5890]

The two are not equal; they’re not even close.

You missed the point.

People misunderstand Catholic practices all the time.
People misunderstand Mormon practices all the time.

Perfect example was the idea that God dwells in Mormon temples or that Mormon temples are heaven.

 

[aspirant]

I did pay tithing as a Mormon. The one similarity between Catholics and Mormons is that we view providing for the needs of our respective churches as an obligation.

The differences:

• Catholics give according to their own conscience. We don’t have a set amount.
• No one is checking up on every individual Catholic to make sure we’re meeting our obligation.
• It is not a grave sin to withhold money from the church.
• It isn’t required that you show you’re on board with giving 10% of your income to the Catholic church before you can be baptized.

I think this is good.

I don’t think all theologians would agree with the bolded part, however. Some clearly consider the Church’s precepts to be grave matter (e.g. Bishop John C. Nienstedt), while others do not consider the precepts to be grave matter (with the exception of Sunday obligation, which is also matter relevant to the Ten Commandments, e.g. Fr. Vincent Serpa).

If you’ve ever heard anyone suggest that it’s grave matter to eat meat on Good Friday, for example, they’re in the former camp. The Catechism of Pope St. Pius X said that “Knowingly to transgress a Precept of the Church in grave matter is a mortal sin,” but this catechism was used in Rome and never prescribed for use throughout the universal Church. I haven’t been able to find anything definitive, but about a different preceptdubium might be relevant?

Sorry that’s not more helpful, but someone else might have better sources.

 

[aspirant]

you are trying to over analyze everything.

I’m attempting a meaningful discussion.

 

[Stephen168]

I agree with the irrationally following a person as being a cult, in a non-Catholic definition

(“cult” in Catholic theology is different for those who may not know. It’s actually something looked for when it comes to causes of canonization)

I think it might still apply in a Catholic sense. Like I said on the previous thread:

My definition of cult did not change just to call Mormonism a cult. Within Catholicism we have our cult of the saints. I never thought of Mormons as a cult because I assumed their President was like our Pope; they followed a position and not a person, like Catholics do. But the more I learned about how Mormon belief can turn 180 degrees because of what the current President of Mormonism teaches; I began to look at Mormonism differently. I hate to use the word cult because it seems to have a lot of baggage but I think even the older pure definition of cult fits them; as explained by Ezra Taft Benson.

In conclusion let us summarize this grand key, these “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet”, for our salvation depends on them.

1. The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.
   **2. The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.
2. The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.**
3. The prophet will never lead the church astray.
   5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.
4. The prophet does not have to say “Thus Saith the Lord,” to give us scripture.
5. The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.
   **8. The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.
6. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.**
7. The prophet may advise on civic matters.
8. The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.
9. The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.
10. The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church.
11. The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed—reject them and suffer.

 

[Marie5890]

I think this is good.

I don’t think all theologians would agree with the bolded part, however. Some clearly consider the Church’s precepts to be grave matter (e.g. Bishop John C. Nienstedt), while others do not consider the precepts to be grave matter (with the exception of Sunday obligation, which is also matter relevant to the Ten Commandments, e.g. Fr. Vincent Serpa).

If you’ve ever heard anyone suggest that it’s grave matter to eat meat on Good Friday, for example, they’re in the former camp. The Catechism of Pope St. Pius X said that “Knowingly to transgress a Precept of the Church in grave matter is a mortal sin,” but this catechism was used in Rome and never prescribed for use throughout the universal Church. I haven’t been able to find anything definitive, but this dubium about a different precept might be relevant?

Sorry that’s not more helpful, but someone else might have better sources.

Thanks for that more indepth look at the different camps of thought.

Sometimes, because of it’s complexities, Catholic thought and history can give me an unintended headache

 

[Marie5890]

I think it might still apply in a Catholic sense. Like I said on the previous thread:

Thanks for that expanded explanation.
Even what Benson had said , though, may have shifted.

I have been part of a forum where his grandson is participant. He had the opportunity to talk privately with Oaks and Maxwell.

When discussing the past (IE 19 Century Mormonism) Oaks made the comment that he wished BYoung had had a couple of really good couselors to guide him (ie admitting that a great deal of what BYoung had said was problematic to say the very least.

More and more as the years go by, the structure of how the LDS’s heirarchy works and is seen is shifting.
Becoming much more corporate in nature.

 

[aspirant]

admitting that a great deal of what BYoung had said was problematic to say the very least.

A very generous expression

 

[twopekinguys]

I’m attempting a meaningful discussion.

Sorry, I’m not getting that impression from you at all I’m afraid.

Things can only be repeated and explained so many times before it gets tiresome. :banghead:

As I said before, I’m not sure you have had much exposure to mormonism, and those who have.

Why not try checking out places where former mormons hang out. You’ll get a whole new perspective.

Until then, I’m done, believe what you want about them. Let me know when you finally get it figured out.

Peace.

ETA: The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I think this is good.

I don’t think all theologians would agree with the bolded part, however. Some clearly consider the Church’s precepts to be grave matter (e.g. Bishop John C. Nienstedt), while others do not consider the precepts to be grave matter (with the exception of Sunday obligation, which is also matter relevant to the Ten Commandments, e.g. Fr. Vincent Serpa).

If you’ve ever heard anyone suggest that it’s grave matter to eat meat on Good Friday, for example, they’re in the former camp. The Catechism of Pope St. Pius X said that “Knowingly to transgress a Precept of the Church in grave matter is a mortal sin,” but this catechism was used in Rome and never prescribed for use throughout the universal Church. I haven’t been able to find anything definitive, but this dubium about a different precept might be relevant?

Sorry that’s not more helpful, but someone else might have better sources.

Thanks.

 

[twopekinguys]

Lets be clear,

Mormons, regardless of paying a full tithe or not, are not forced out of their wards.
They are denied TRs, which they renew every 2 years.

Maybe not a formal excommunication, but you and I both know how the gossip mill, love bombing, etc. works in a mormon ward.

It has driven many a mormon out.