How is the LDS a cult? Part 2

[Marie5890]

After a while it’s not so much the proselytizing it’s just the tiresomeness of their company. A friend of my husband’s is equally tiresome with his conversation one hit wonder on the subject of raw food diets.

Understood.
It can be tiresome when someone’s focus is limited or small whatever the topic.

 

[Aramis]

Yes, I have never heard of anyone getting treated by Cathlocs they way I was treated by Mormons…but I HAVE heard of other ex LDs getting treated like I was treated.

I’ve never been LDS, bt had two different roommates who were.

One was a jack-mormon, now atheist… and I had to threaten to sue when the ward kept calling and not accepting that he wouldn’t talk to them.

The other, well, he was well cared for until he (1) fraudulently enlisted in the Army, then (2) deserted just ahead of being arrested. His mom told me not to give him her number, and asked me to forward his excommunication notice to him. The letter arrived with red ink on the outside stating notice of excommunication. I’ve not heard from him since… but It took a couple years to get it through to the ward that I hadn’t, because they wanted his mailing address to notify him he’d been stripped of all callings… And kept telling me of this.

There is some serious level shaming done by at least some wards.

This did involve two different wards, mind you.

I’ve other ex-mormon friends, and in every case, it’s not just family - they’ve been cut off by almost everyone in the ward, too.

 

[TexanKnight]

I’ve never been LDS, bt had two different roommates who were.

One was a jack-mormon, now atheist… and I had to threaten to sue when the ward kept calling and not accepting that he wouldn’t talk to them.

The other, well, he was well cared for until he (1) fraudulently enlisted in the Army, then (2) deserted just ahead of being arrested. His mom told me not to give him her number, and asked me to forward his excommunication notice to him. The letter arrived with red ink on the outside stating notice of excommunication. I’ve not heard from him since… but It took a couple years to get it through to the ward that I hadn’t, because they wanted his mailing address to notify him he’d been stripped of all callings… And kept telling me of this.

There is some serious level shaming done by at least some wards.

This did involve two different wards, mind you.

I’ve other ex-mormon friends, and in every case, it’s not just family - they’ve been cut off by almost everyone in the ward, too.

Yes. It is sad that there are those who would compare this kind of stuff and the kind of stuff that happened to me to the very minor things I have heard Catholics might do. It truly minimizes what Ex-Mormons have gone thru just for sake of sounding charitable.

We, as Catholics, have a duty to uncover heresy and fight it tooth and nail…not toothpaste and nail polish.

If our Catholic ForeFathers had fought heresy with the same charitable inclusiveness some here would have us use, the Catholic Church would likely not exist today.

 

[Phntm]

I can not relate to Tex’s experience. My own transition has been twenty years in the making.
Never felt comfortable in my own skin in the LDS faith. So, I always feel judged by the folks, was not living up to the LDS expectations. The combination of trouble and failure to go on a mission and the ward essentially disowned me. Hardly noticed, to tell the truth, was not interested. Most still ignore or avoid me to this day (live in the same town, see them about from time to time)
Spent the majority of the next twenty years avoiding religion in general - would not call myself atheist or agnostic - but really did not have a religion. Got angry at those that discussed it, really got angry at evangelizers/proselytizers or other “born-again” types. But, if I was pushed to name a religion, I claimed LDS.

Thanks be to God, He opened my eyes and I am coming home this Easter to the Catholic church.

 

[aspirant]

I think what makes me consider them a cult is having to pay (tithings) in order to be able to go to a temple.

From their perspective, I would think, this does not appear to be “paying an entry fee” but assuring their leaders that they are following the precepts of their church as they live their lives.

One of the ways this differs from an entry fee, for example, is that tithing is, I assume, a percentage of income. If I want a soft drink at a restaurant or a ticket to a movie, I must pay the same amount of money as anyone else (or, at least, anyone else in my age bracket). Some people can afford to do this often, others only rarely. Tithing is different in that it’s based on what you personally have, and I would guess that one’s “temple recommend” is not dependent on having contributed any particular amount.

If its truly Christ church why would you need to pay to enter it? Wouldnt all be welcome there?

Some spaces and activities, as I understand it, are open to everyone, such as communal worship at the ward. Others are reserved for those who are following certain precepts.

Although there are many dissimilarities, this isn’t entirely foreign to us. In some Catholic churches, in times past, the liturgy of the word was open to all and the liturgy of the Eucharist was open only to to those who had been initiated. Even now, when anyone may attend both, we still have a closed communion, and even members of the Church are asked to consider whether they are prepared to approach the altar to receive the Eucharist.

Of course there are differences. A Mormon must provide some evidence of his temple worthiness before receiving the recommend necessary to enter. A Catholic, on the other hand, is on a kind of honor system when it comes to preparation to receive the Eucharist. But despite the many differences, I don’t think it’s an entirely alien line of thinking.

There are many non-Catholics who tend to think “If its truly Christ’s church why isn’t communion open to all, at least to all Christians?”

If your not mormon (in good standing or a non-mormon) why cant you enter a temple and witness lets say, your loved ones marriage? You must wait outside.

As I understand it, though, there is usually some portion of the celebration for everyone invited, such as a reception.

I’m not a Mormon, in fact I’m generally pretty critical of Mormonism, but I think other dimensions of Mormonism are much more problematic than these.

 

[kimg901]

From their perspective, I would think, this does not appear to be “paying an entry fee” but assuring their leaders that they are following the precepts of their church as they live their lives.

One of the ways this differs from an entry fee, for example, is that tithing is, I assume, a percentage of income. If I want a soft drink at a restaurant or a ticket to a movie, I must pay the same amount of money as anyone else (or, at least, anyone else in my age bracket). Some people can afford to do this often, others only rarely. Tithing is different in that it’s based on what you personally have, and I would guess that one’s “temple recommend” is not dependent on having contributed any particular amount.
Yes it is a percentage of income. But what about those devout mormons who dont have alot of money and dont tithe? Why are they not welcome into their temples? The temple recommend does in fact have to do with money and standing

Some spaces and activities, as I understand it, are open to everyone, such as communal worship at the ward. Others are reserved for those who are following certain precepts.

Although there are many dissimilarities, this isn’t entirely foreign to us. In some Catholic churches, in times past, the liturgy of the word was open to all and the liturgy of the Eucharist was open only to to those who had been initiated. Even now, when anyone may attend both, we still have a closed communion, and even members of the Church are asked to consider whether they are prepared to approach the altar to receive the Eucharist.

Of course there are differences. A Mormon must provide some evidence of his temple worthiness before receiving the recommend necessary to enter. A Catholic, on the other hand, is on a kind of honor system when it comes to preparation to receive the Eucharist. But despite the many differences, I don’t think it’s an entirely alien line of thinking.

There are many non-Catholics who tend to think “If its truly Christ’s church why isn’t communion open to all, at least to all Christians?”
True, but one only needs to read the Bible and see you must truly believe in the Eucharist.

As I understand it, though, there is usually some portion of the celebration for everyone invited, such as a reception.
Reception yes. The marriage itself one cant, very heartbreaking for the people I know that this has happened to.
I’m not a Mormon, in fact I’m generally pretty critical of Mormonism, but I think other dimensions of Mormonism are much more problematic than these.

 

[twopekinguys]

Let’s not forget the Tithing settlement meeting that everyone goes through ever year.

One of the temple recommend questions asked by the bishop has to do with tithing. Do you pay a **full **tithe.

 

[aspirant]

Yes it is a percentage of income. But what about those devout mormons who dont have alot of money and dont tithe?

I’m not a Mormon, but the reasoning appears to be “if you have an income, you should be giving a percentage of it to support the work of the church.”

I’m not saying I agree with this line of thinking, but neither do I think it necessarily constitutes an “entry fee.”

 

[twopekinguys]

I’m not a Mormon, but the reasoning appears to be “if you have an income, you should be giving a percentage of it to support the work of the church.”

I’m not saying I agree with this line of thinking, but neither do I think it necessarily constitutes an “entry fee.”

Try walking into a mormon temple sealing room without a recommend. mormon or not.

In order to get a recommend, you have to have fulfilled the tithing requirement.

Being married in the temple, receiving all of their ordinances is required for them to obtain the highest degree of mormon heaven.

They have to learn all of the handshakes etc. to get past the bad spirits, and that can only be done by going to the temple.

Tie it all together, and they are buying their way into heaven. Or, their idea of heaven.

Temple Recommend Questions

 

[aspirant]

In order to get a recommend, you have to have fulfilled the tithing requirement.

In other words, “In order to get a recommend, you have to follow the teaching and precepts of the church.” That doesn’t strike me as a totally wild and crazy idea. I do think that they ought to make some allowance for those to whom even 10% would be a hardship, but that people would generally be expected to contribute to their church is not by itself some far-fetched, abusive or degrading thing.

Being married in the temple, receiving all of their ordinances is required for them to obtain the highest degree of mormon heaven.

Yes. As a non-Mormon I don’t believe any of that, but neither do I understand why anyone would think this makes Mormonism a cult (in some pejorative sense). If thinking that engaging in some action(s) is necessary in order to attain the highest goal makes a religion a cult, almost all religions are cults. How are we defining cult (in the pejorative sense) here?

Tie it all together, and they are buying their way into heaven.

I’ve known a number of Baptists who make the same claims about our Church’s precepts.

 

[zaffiroborant]

As I understand it, though, there is usually some portion of the celebration for everyone invited, such as a reception.

In what way does anyone of any religion or no religion think that attendance at a reception is any way comparable to attending a wedding?

In this country an LDS couple must marry in a secret ceremony, if they don’t and they get married by say a JP they have to wait a year to be “sealed” in the temple. In many LDS circles this has an attached social stigma, it leaves folks discussing just why they couldn’t be married in the temple. In countries outside the US the norm for the most part is to get married by a civil authority in a wedding that everyone can attend and later be sealed in the temple. So only in the US can and does the LDS church punish those who decide to have a wedding that includes everyone, everywhere else it’s the norm.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Let’s not forget the Tithing settlement meeting that everyone goes through ever year.

One of the temple recommend questions asked by the bishop has to do with tithing. Do you pay a **full **tithe.

Not to mention the worthiness interviews done by bishops on young members of the church behind closed doors. I found it hard to believe the first time I read a description of these interviews but more and more described probing questions about masturbation and pornography, often describing how as a 12 year old they did not understanding the words or questions. In these interviews bishops would explain just what masturbation was and what might qualify as pornography. I don’t find it acceptable for a 40 year old acquaintance to explain masturbation and pornography to a 12 year old and I find the acceptance of this behavior on the part of parents in the LDS church to be at least a borderline cult aspect.

 

[aspirant]

In what way does anyone of any religion or no religion think that attendance at a reception is any way comparable to attending a wedding?

Since I’ve known people to skip the ceremony and attend only a reception, I think some people do! Obviously, that’s not going to satisfy everyone, and I wouldn’t want our marriages to be done that way. But within the LDS community, I think many people are going to have different expectations than I do about what a wedding is like.

In countries outside the US the norm for the most part is to get married by a civil authority in a wedding that everyone can attend and later be sealed in the temple. So only in the US can and does the LDS church punish those who decide to have a wedding that includes everyone, everywhere else it’s the norm.

Sounds like folks in the US should start doing as done elsewhere.

 

[TexanKnight]

From their perspective, I would think, this does not appear to be “paying an entry fee” but assuring their leaders that they are following the precepts of their church as they live their lives.

Funny, though, you can say whatever you like, it does not change the facts. One must ay their way to heaven as a Mormon.

One of the ways this differs from an entry fee, for example, is that tithing is, I assume, a percentage of income. If I want a soft drink at a restaurant or a ticket to a movie, I must pay the same amount of money as anyone else (or, at least, anyone else in my age bracket). Some people can afford to do this often, others only rarely. Tithing is different in that it’s based on what you personally have, and I would guess that one’s “temple recommend” is not dependent on having contributed any particular amount.

That is still an entry fee. I have been places where a person can only enter if they pay a fee based on some formula. It dies not make it less an entry fee.

Although there are many dissimilarities, this isn’t entirely foreign to us. In some Catholic churches, in times past, the liturgy of the word was open to all and the liturgy of the Eucharist was open only to to those who had been initiated. Even now, when anyone may attend both, we still have a closed communion, and even members of the Church are asked to consider whether they are prepared to approach the altar to receive the Eucharist.

That is not based, however, on paying money, but on being worthy. Even true Catholics often refrain from taking the Eucharist if they feel they are not worthy. Your analogy does not work

As I understand it, though, there is usually some portion of the celebration for everyone invited, such as a reception.

A reception is not the ceremony. It is sad that, when I got sealed in the Temple, none of my family could attend to watch the wedding. To think it was somehow made better because they could attend a reception is fallacious thinking.

I’m not a Mormon, in fact I’m generally pretty critical of Mormonism, but I think other dimensions of Mormonism are much more problematic than these.

Which do not make these any less problematic

 

[aspirant]

That is still an entry fee.

If one insists on reading a precept to support a church financially as an “entry fee,” then being a Catholic in good standing also requires an “entry fee”: “the faithful are obliged to assist with the material needs of the Church, each according to his own ability.”

aspirant:

Although there are many dissimilarities, this isn’t entirely foreign to us. In some Catholic churches, in times past, the liturgy of the word was open to all and the liturgy of the Eucharist was open only to to those who had been initiated. Even now, when anyone may attend both, we still have a closed communion, and even members of the Church are asked to consider whether they are prepared to approach the altar to receive the Eucharist.

That is not based, however, on paying money, but on being worthy.

And being worthy, even in our understanding, includes “assisting with the material needs of the Church.”

Look, I think there are plenty of points on which to criticize Mormonism, ploytheism not least among them. But I think it’s really overreaching to consider tithing as such a “cult” practice.

 

[TexanKnight]

If one insists on reading a precept to support a church financially as an “entry fee,” then being a Catholic in good standing also requires an “entry fee”: “the faithful are obliged to assist with the material needs of the Church, each according to his own ability.”

Not true. I am never prohibited in going to Mass or taking the Eucharist because I do not pay tithing. Your analogy fails again. And sorry…I do not roll my eyes. Seems childish.

And being worthy, even in our understanding, includes “assisting with the material needs of the Church.”

Yes…but we are not withheld from doing things in the Church if we fail to pay. You keep missing this point.

Look, I think there are plenty of points on which to criticize Mormonism, ploytheism not least among them. But I think it’s really overreaching to consider tithing as such a “cult” practice.

Tithing, by itself, is not a cult practice. The way the LDS do it is.

 

[aspirant]

I am never prohibited in going to Mass or taking the Eucharist because I do not pay tithing.

Because the Church doesn’t specify a percentage (though the Old Testament did-- 10%) and we’re on an honor system. But we are obliged to assist with the material needs of the Church. That’s a precept, not optional, and it’s not an “entry fee.”

we are not withheld from doing things in the Church if we fail to pay.

We’re not checked because we’re supposed to check ourselves. We are expected to examine ourselves and refrain from receiving the Eucharist if we find we are not following the precepts of the Church.

Tithing, by itself, is not a cult practice. The way the LDS do it is.

Then the complaint should be about the methodology rather than the claim that the obligation to tithe constitutes an “entry fee.” If the latter were true, we would have to conclude that God imposed an “entry fee” on his own people.

 

[TexanKnight]

Because the Church doesn’t specify a percentage (though the Old Testament did-- 10%) and we’re on an honor system. But we are obliged to assist with the material needs of the Church. That’s a precept, not optional, and it’s not an “entry fee.”

True, but again, we are not excluded from anything due to a failure to pay like you are in the LDS Church

We’re not checked because we’re supposed to check ourselves. We are expected to examine ourselves and refrain from receiving the Eucharist if we find we are not following the precepts of the Church.

Again, true. But if we were asked by the priest if we are paying and we said no, we would still not be excluded from anything.

Then the complaint should be about the methodology rather than the claim that the obligation to tithe constitutes an “entry fee.” If the latter were true, we would have to conclude that God imposed an “entry fee” on his own people.

Nope. The way they implement it MAKES it an entry fee. You are grilled about whether you pay, and if you do not, you are excluded from things. That makes it a cult.

 

[Marie5890]

Look, I think there are plenty of points on which to criticize Mormonism, ploytheism not least among them. But I think it’s really overreaching to consider tithing as such a “cult” practice.

I agree.
Unless there is a new policy, when one goes into a TR interview or tithing settlement, one does not have to prove that they have paid a full tithe. It’s the honor system. Those in the NOM movement can get recommends even though they dont believe that Smith was a prophet and that today’s GA’s are " prophet seers and revelators"

Infact, all of the TR interview is the honor system. You dont have to prove it. It’s why there are locks on the lockers in the dressing room of the temples.

Certainly there is the honor system in the Catholic church as well. The priest has no way of knowing if everyone who presents themselves for Communion is in a state of grace.

 

[Jessie5000]

My first thought to answering your question about whether the LDS church is a cult is: Who cares!

Upon further reflection, I am aware of many christian denominations who consider Catholics to be a cult and inservice of the devil. These churches extend great efforts to save Catholics from a church they consider evil. When I first encountered these christians who considered my faith as evil, I was very hurt and felt abused, attacked and just horrible.

Sure, the LDS church is very different, they are polytheistic and adhere to many tenants not associated with traditional christianity.

I think we all spend too much energy working against cults and participating in anti-cult activities. I do not remember God calling us to be the people against cults, the people against materialism… No, we are called to be the people of God. Attacking another faith seems counter productive when trying to spread the good news.

I think we are wiser to learn how to be loving, inclusive and good witnesses so that others may experience the love of God through us.

This being said, there are individuals who are called and prepared to address theological issues with other faith groups. For example, the ecumenical council often debates theological issues with other faiths and have been successful in coming to new understandings between faiths. I am sure that most of us are not called to this office. We are, however, all called to love others as part of our evangelical mandate.