How is the LDS a cult? Part 2

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I have said that people who were never baptized Christian might not be heretic, but a large portion of Mormons are converts from Christianity…as was Joseph Smith and all the first Mormons. So, the Mormon Church is heretic BECAUSE it was founded and doctrines corrupted by baptized Christians
I think actually (and ironically) that they are apostates, not heretics. Apostasy may begin with heresy (Joseph Smith would be a heretic extrodinaire), but no one could call modern day Mormons heretics. It is an entirely different religion altogether.
 
I have said that people who were never baptized Christian might not be heretic, but a large portion of Mormons are converts from Christianity…as was Joseph Smith and all the first Mormons. So, the Mormon Church is heretic BECAUSE it was founded and doctrines corrupted by baptized Christians
Yes, but I don’t know that they understood orthodox Christianity. I leave that judgment to God.
 
I think actually (and ironically) that they are apostates, not heretics. Apostasy may begin with heresy (Joseph Smith would be a heretic extrodinaire), but no one could call modern day Mormons heretics. It is an entirely different religion altogether.
while I might agree with you, the fact is, Joseph was a heretic and started a church. The church would be a heretical church. Does that mean members of a heretical church are heretics? I don’t know. Possibly, I guess. Especially since the truth is available to them and they reject it.
 
Yes, but I don’t know that they understood orthodox Christianity. I leave that judgment to God.
If you read their quotes, etc. I think they DID understand it…especially since several were pastors. How else could Joseph claim everyone else was wrong if he did not understand what it was that was wrong?
 
If you read their quotes, etc. I think they DID understand it…especially since several were pastors. How else could Joseph claim everyone else was wrong if he did not understand what it was that was wrong?
Joseph Smith & Co. were not heretics from Catholicism before they created Mormonism because they weren’t heretics as Protestants. Can we say they are heretics from Protestantism? Possibly. As far as I’ve read, Smith was raised by his parents to read the Bible and believe in Jesus, but they weren’t all that religious. He joined a Methodist church, but that was short-lived, and who knows what he really understood?

People say Catholicism is wrong, the whore of Babylon, the beast of Revelations, etc., that doesn’t mean they have an orthodox understanding. I’ve never read anything of Smith’s that indicates he understood orthodox Christian teachings. Sidney Rigdon was a Christian pastor before joining Smith to form Mormonism and helped formulate the Mormon view of God as three distinct beings. I think there is a stronger case to claim Rigdon was a heretic from Protestantism than there is for Smith.

Proclaiming a person is an unrepentant heretic is claiming they are damned. As I said, I leave judgment of individuals to God. The religion itself is of course heretical in its teachings.
 
Joseph Smith & Co. were not heretics from Catholicism before they created Mormonism because they weren’t heretics as Protestants. Can we say they are heretics from Protestantism? Possibly. As far as I’ve read, Smith was raised by his parents to read the Bible and believe in Jesus, but they weren’t all that religious. He joined a Methodist church, but that was short-lived, and who knows what he really understood?

People say Catholicism is wrong, the whore of Babylon, the beast of Revelations, etc., that doesn’t mean they have an orthodox understanding. I’ve never read anything of Smith’s that indicates he understood orthodox Christian teachings. Sidney Rigdon was a Christian pastor before joining Smith to form Mormonism and helped formulate the Mormon view of God as three distinct beings. I think there is a stronger case to claim Rigdon was a heretic from Protestantism than there is for Smith.

Proclaiming a person is an unrepentant heretic is claiming they are damned. As I said, I leave judgment of individuals to God. The religion itself is of course heretical in its teachings.
Rebecca,

Thank you for your sense of justice and right understanding. It’s something we need to support and encourage in ourselves and each other.
Your parish is fortunate to have you part of their community, esp living in Utah.

God Bless
 
Joseph Smith & Co. were not heretics from Catholicism before they created Mormonism because they weren’t heretics as Protestants. Can we say they are heretics from Protestantism? Possibly. As far as I’ve read, Smith was raised by his parents to read the Bible and believe in Jesus, but they weren’t all that religious. He joined a Methodist church, but that was short-lived, and who knows what he really understood?

People say Catholicism is wrong, the whore of Babylon, the beast of Revelations, etc., that doesn’t mean they have an orthodox understanding. I’ve never read anything of Smith’s that indicates he understood orthodox Christian teachings. Sidney Rigdon was a Christian pastor before joining Smith to form Mormonism and helped formulate the Mormon view of God as three distinct beings. I think there is a stronger case to claim Rigdon was a heretic from Protestantism than there is for Smith.

Proclaiming a person is an unrepentant heretic is claiming they are damned. As I said, I leave judgment of individuals to God. The religion itself is of course heretical in its teachings.
I do not judge anyone to damnation. That is above my paygrade. The definition said baptized “Christians” it did not say baptized “Catholics”. They teach a form of Arianism. The Catholic Church has spoken on what Arianism is. They Catholic Church says they will not accept LDS Baptisms.

I have quoted Canon Law.

Anything else is left up to God. I am just glad that we had strong Catholics back in the First and Second Centuries. From what I have seen here…the Catholic Church would have been in big trouble back then if some of today’s Catholics had been dealing with it all.

God knows what He is doing. He always has.
 
Sadly, I have helped get off topic. The question of the thread is “is the LDS Church a cult”.

Yes. Based on what they teach, how they conduct business, and from what I experienced, it is.

But I am not the final judge of that, either…and I still love the LDS Church members anyway
 
Rebecca,

Thank you for your sense of justice and right understanding. It’s something we need to support and encourage in ourselves and each other.
Your parish is fortunate to have you part of their community, esp living in Utah.

God Bless
😊 Thanks Marie.
 
Hi TK, the code of canon law was updated in 1983. 🙂 Where there once was a hardline against “Protestant heresies”, Vatican II brought in the spirit of ecumenism, which is reflected in the 1983 code.

Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

Can. 752 Although not an assent of faith, a religious submission of the intellect and will must be given to a doctrine which the Supreme Pontiff or the college of bishops declares concerning faith or morals when they exercise the authentic magisterium, even if they do not intend to proclaim it by definitive act; therefore, the Christian faithful are to take care to avoid those things which do not agree with it.

Can. 753 Although the bishops who are in communion with the head and members of the college, whether individually or joined together in conferences of bishops or in particular councils, do not possess infallibility in teaching, they are authentic teachers and instructors of the faith for the Christian faithful entrusted to their care; the Christian faithful are bound to adhere with religious submission of mind to the authentic magisterium of their bishops.

Can. 754 All the Christian faithful are obliged to observe the constitutions and decrees which the legitimate authority of the Church issues in order to propose doctrine and to proscribe erroneous opinions, particularly those which the Roman Pontiff or the college of bishops puts forth.

Can. 755 1. It is above all for the entire college of bishops and the Apostolic See to foster and direct among Catholics the ecumenical movement whose purpose is the restoration among all Christians of the unity which the Church is bound to promote by the will of Christ.
  1. It is likewise for the bishops and, according to the norm of law, the conferences of bishops to promote this same unity and to impart practical norms according to the various needs and opportunities of the circumstances; they are to be attentive to the prescripts issued by the supreme authority of the Church.

You can then turn to the Vatican II Council, particularly Nostra Aetate:

Likewise, other religions found everywhere try to counter the restlessness of the human heart, each in its own manner, by proposing “ways,” comprising teachings, rules of life, and sacred rites. The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. Indeed, she proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ “the way, the truth, and the life” (John 14:6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself.

The Church, therefore, exhorts her sons, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men.
 
Every bishop I had asked for tax records. That is not typical?
I have declared my tithing to at least 18 different bishops. I have never had any bishop ask to see my tax records. The only way I can imagine a bishop doing such a thing is if a person’s declaration was obviously not credible.
 
I have declared my tithing to at least 18 different bishops. I have never had any bishop ask to see my tax records. The only way I can imagine a bishop doing such a thing is if a person’s declaration was obviously not credible.
you have been lucky

of course, I not expect a Mormon to admit to it
 
Hi TK, the code of canon law was updated in 1983. 🙂 Where there once was a hardline against “Protestant heresies”, Vatican II brought in the spirit of ecumenism, which is reflected in the 1983 code.

Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

Can. 752 Although not an assent of faith, a religious submission of the intellect and will must be given to a doctrine which the Supreme Pontiff or the college of bishops declares concerning faith or morals when they exercise the authentic magisterium, even if they do not intend to proclaim it by definitive act; therefore, the Christian faithful are to take care to avoid those things which do not agree with it.

Can. 753 Although the bishops who are in communion with the head and members of the college, whether individually or joined together in conferences of bishops or in particular councils, do not possess infallibility in teaching, they are authentic teachers and instructors of the faith for the Christian faithful entrusted to their care; the Christian faithful are bound to adhere with religious submission of mind to the authentic magisterium of their bishops.

Can. 754 All the Christian faithful are obliged to observe the constitutions and decrees which the legitimate authority of the Church issues in order to propose doctrine and to proscribe erroneous opinions, particularly those which the Roman Pontiff or the college of bishops puts forth.

Can. 755 1. It is above all for the entire college of bishops and the Apostolic See to foster and direct among Catholics the ecumenical movement whose purpose is the restoration among all Christians of the unity which the Church is bound to promote by the will of Christ.
  1. It is likewise for the bishops and, according to the norm of law, the conferences of bishops to promote this same unity and to impart practical norms according to the various needs and opportunities of the circumstances; they are to be attentive to the prescripts issued by the supreme authority of the Church.

You can then turn to the Vatican II Council, particularly Nostra Aetate:

Likewise, other religions found everywhere try to counter the restlessness of the human heart, each in its own manner, by proposing “ways,” comprising teachings, rules of life, and sacred rites. The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. Indeed, she proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ “the way, the truth, and the life” (John 14:6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself.

The Church, therefore, exhorts her sons, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men.
Everyone is free to accept and welcome Mormonism. I choose to fight doctrine that fools people. I choose fight against the teachings like God was once a man. Once you become accepting, there is no room to move. Germans earned that in the 1920s and 30s.

funny how the attempted kidnapping of your children gives you a different perspective than all who want to hold hands and sing Kumbaya.

We all make choices. If that means I am not welcome here, I will leave.
 
you have been lucky

of course, I not expect a Mormon to admit to it
I didn’t have nearly as many bishops as mtolympus in my relatively few years in the church, but I was never asked for tax records, either.

Some have mentioned that they found, or think they would find, the temple recommend interview with the bishop to be uncomfortable or “creepy.” I was probably fortunate in that when I joined the church at age 18, my first bishop worked as the counselor at my high school, and was a man I already respected and trusted.
 
I have declared my tithing to at least 18 different bishops. I have never had any bishop ask to see my tax records. The only way I can imagine a bishop doing such a thing is if a person’s declaration was obviously not credible.
The very fact that a Mormon bishop would ask for tax records at all is one I find abhorrent. I could say that I’d pledge eleventy-billion dollars to my local parish, and no priest would ever ask to see my tax records. (In all likelihood, he’d probably just smile, nod, say “Ok!” and go on with the expectation that I wouldn’t have that much to give.)
 
I have declared my tithing to at least 18 different bishops. I have never had any bishop ask to see my tax records. The only way I can imagine a bishop doing such a thing is if a person’s declaration was obviously not credible.
I was never asked. Never knew anyone who was the years I was Mormon.

Could it/ does it happen? Sure, it’s not out of the realm of possibility. That doesn’t make it a common and normal happening.
 
The very fact that a Mormon bishop would ask for tax records at all is one I find abhorrent. I could say that I’d pledge eleventy-billion dollars to my local parish, and no priest would ever ask to see my tax records. (In all likelihood, he’d probably just smile, nod, say “Ok!” and go on with the expectation that I wouldn’t have that much to give.)
Yes. It is. But it happens.
 
In defense of TK, he is not the only one that either was asked or was told of such things. I have many friends that were asked for a tax document or a bank statement (I wasnt there so I cant say its true) when they were called before their bishop for the annual tithe meeting (they call it something else I believe). So whether or not it is true remains to be seen. But I will say this, what church asks to meet with someone regarding tithes?
 
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