How is the LDS a cult? Part 2

[Marie5890]

In defense of TK, he is not the only one that either was asked or was told of such things. I have many friends that were asked for a tax document or a bank statement (I wasnt there so I cant say its true) when they were called before their bishop for the annual tithe meeting (they call it something else I believe). So whether or not it is true remains to be seen. But I will say this, what church asks to meet with someone regarding tithes?

Kim, do your friends talk to you a lot about their TR interviews or tithing settlements? Are they common conversations where they discuss what it’s like? What are their reactions to those interviews?

Im curious I admit as it was never really a topic of behind the scene conversations when I lived in Provo of what those conversations were like. It was just par for course, no biggie, sort of thing. You know, “ya, gotta go for my TR interview.” “yea, tithing settlment is coming up”

It was never a big deal. Just go with the flow sort of thing.

 

[kimg901]

Kim, do your friends talk to you a lot about their TR interviews or tithing settlements? Are they common conversations where they discuss what it’s like? What are their reactions to those interviews?

Im curious I admit as it was never really a topic of behind the scene conversations when I lived in Provo of what those conversations were like. It was just par for course, no biggie, sort of thing. You know, “ya, gotta go for my TR interview.” “yea, tithing settlment is coming up”

It was never a big deal. Just go with the flow sort of thing.

All of them said it was odd, but okay.A couple of them told the bishop it was none of his business (they are no longer mormons) ,what they did with their money is their business. The ones that are still mormon do not practice (they say they want to enjoy life without being looked down upon for having drinks and a smoke) but still believe in Christ without all the B.S. To tell you the truth, i think its the higher-ups in the church that are telling the bishops to do this.

 

[Marie5890]

All of them said it was odd, but okay.A couple of them told the bishop it was none of his business (they are no longer mormons) ,what they did with their money is their business. The ones that are still mormon do not practice (they say they want to enjoy life without being looked down upon for having drinks and a smoke) but still believe in Christ without all the B.S. To tell you the truth, i think its the higher-ups in the church that are telling the bishops to do this.

Thanks for the clarification. I appreciate it.

Sounds like the bishops had a sense that these were people who were already not TBMs. They suspected that they were becoming apostates. That makes sense. An apostate would certainly be pulling back from tithing.

Any definitive reason you think it was the “higher ups” telling the bishops to do this, or just speculation on your part?

 

[LivingWaters7]

Im curious I admit as it was never really a topic of behind the scene conversations when I lived in Provo of what those conversations were like. It was just par for course, no biggie, sort of thing. You know, “ya, gotta go for my TR interview.” “yea, tithing settlment is coming up”

It was never a big deal. Just go with the flow sort of thing.

This has been my experience as well. The only setting in which it would become somewhat of a “big deal” is for new converts who don’t know what to expect. My first time, I mentioned that I didn’t really have a “testimony” of the law of tithing at the beginning (and despite all of my “activity” as a Catholic, I was never big on offerings then either), until a few months later. The bishop said ok he completely understands, and that was that.

The few times I’ve done tithing settlement, I signed up for a slot, got a copy of the records of my tithing and other donations for the year, the bishop asked if I am a full tithe payer, said yes, and that was that.

And yeah, going for TR interviews, priesthood interviews, etc have been in the “no big deal” category for the LDS I’ve associated with. Even if someone had an issue they had to work on which stopped them from getting a TR, for example, it was still a “no big deal”, in the sense that the person knew that they aren’t perfect, and had Christ’s atonement, the guidance of the bishop, etc to rely on for help if that’s what they really wanted. A friend of mine had a limited-recommend, had some issues, sought guidance from his bishop, had his TR taken away for awhile during the repentance process, and now, months later, he has a full recommend and is endowed.

 

[Marie5890]

This has been my experience as well. The only setting in which it would become somewhat of a “big deal” is for new converts who don’t know what to expect. My first time, I mentioned that I didn’t really have a “testimony” of the law of tithing at the beginning (and despite all of my “activity” as a Catholic, I was never big on offerings then either), until a few months later. The bishop said ok he completely understands, and that was that.

The few times I’ve done tithing settlement, I signed up for a slot, got a copy of the records of my tithing and other donations for the year, the bishop asked if I am a full tithe payer, said yes, and that was that.

And yeah, going for TR interviews, priesthood interviews, etc have been in the “no big deal” category for the LDS I’ve associated with. Even if someone had an issue they had to work on which stopped them from getting a TR, for example, it was still a “no big deal”, in the sense that the person knew that they aren’t perfect, and had Christ’s atonement, the guidance of the bishop, etc to rely on for help if that’s what they really wanted. A friend of mine had a limited-recommend, had some issues, sought guidance from his bishop, had his TR taken away for awhile during the repentance process, and now, months later, he has a full recommend and is endowed.

That was my experience. It always had that “no biggie” feel to it.

I wouldnt be surprised nowadays if the bishop suspect that a person is no longer a TBM, that perhaps the interviews may be more of a discerning interview than is what is normal, but for those who are TBMs, its just something you do.

 

[mtolympus]

Tithing develops and tests our faith. By sacrificing to the Lord what we may think we need or want for ourselves, we learn to rely on Him.

Many years ago, my wife and I had three young children and couple of dogs to take care of. We had purchased a house a few years earlier so all our resources were going into our house and we had very little savings. The company I worked for wanted to close my position and offered me a position in another state accoss the country. They wanted to fill this position and therefore they made it clear that if I didn’t accept, I would be essentially be resigning and therefore not entitled to any severance compensation. We didn’t accept their jpb offer.

My wife and I went to tithing settlement the last week in December. We knew that my Job would end in two days on Deember 31. We looked at our bank statement. It showed the sum of $500. We then figured our tithing. We owed $500 to declare a full tithing. In one ear I heard the promise, “Prove me now here with saith the Lord of Hosts,” in the other ear I heard, “Don’t be a fool, you don’t have a job.” We decided to pay a full tithing.

The next day which was my last day at work, I received a phone call from the company manager. He said, “We had a meeting this morning. We decided we haven’t been fair to you and we are going to send you a severance benefit of $3500!

We put that money in the bank and drew upon it when we were short. I worked as a custodian and other odd jobs. The $3500 bank account ran out the week I found a new job.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Everyone is free to accept and welcome Mormonism. I choose to fight doctrine that fools people. I choose fight against the teachings like God was once a man. Once you become accepting, there is no room to move. Germans earned that in the 1920s and 30s.

funny how the attempted kidnapping of your children gives you a different perspective than all who want to hold hands and sing Kumbaya.

We all make choices. If that means I am not welcome here, I will leave.

I don’t know why you would think:

A) I accept Mormonism
B) That you are the only one here who has suffered at the hands of Mormons
C) That you aren’t welcome here

I don’t think any of those things.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Tithing develops and tests our faith. By sacrificing to the Lord what we may think we need or want for ourselves, we learn to rely on Him.

Many years ago, my wife and I had three young children and couple of dogs to take care of. We had purchased a house a few years earlier so all our resources were going into our house and we had very little savings. The company I worked for wanted to close my position and offered me a position in another state accoss the country. They wanted to fill this position and therefore they made it clear that if I didn’t accept, I would be essentially be resigning and therefore not entitled to any severance compensation. We didn’t accept their jpb offer.

My wife and I went to tithing settlement the last week in December. We knew that my Job would end in two days on Deember 31. We looked at our bank statement. It showed the sum of $500. We then figured our tithing. We owed $500 to declare a full tithing. In one ear I heard the promise, “Prove me now here with saith the Lord of Hosts,” in the other ear I heard, “Don’t be a fool, you don’t have a job.” We decided to pay a full tithing.

The next day which was my last day at work, I received a phone call from the company manager. He said, “We had a meeting this morning. We decided we haven’t been fair to you and we are going to send you a severance benefit of $3500!

We put that money in the bank and drew upon it when we were short. I worked as a custodian and other odd jobs. The $3500 bank account ran out the week I found a new job.

Mt. Oly, here’s the thing with these type of stories, you have no idea what would have happened if you had kept the $500 and used it to support your family. You have made an association, like the classic, every time I wash my car it rains, therefore, washing my car causes it to rain.

Correlation is not causation.

 

[aspirant]

The false doctrines they teach are heretical, and, if you converted to LDS from a Christian Religion, you are a heretic.

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Code of Canon Law, the correct term would be “apostasy,” not “heresy.” Mormonism is not Christian, but a different religion.

I think actually (and ironically) that they are apostates, not heretics… no one could call modern day Mormons heretics. It is an entirely different religion altogether.

Yep.

I don’t know why you would think:

A) I accept Mormonism
B) That you are the only one here who has suffered at the hands of Mormons
C) That you aren’t welcome here

I don’t think any of those things.

I don’t think any of those things either.

 

[Pacos_Pete]

To be fair, I had friends while I lived in UT who were converts from Catholicism to Mormonism who experienced the same with problems with their Catholic family members. Caused real painful rifts in families. Often times they were cut off from their Catholic families.
All very sad when that happens. The pain…

 

[Pacos_Pete]

The following are quotes from scripture explaining tithing. LDS is a cult because it requires tithing.

malachi

Here is a list of all the bible verses from the Old and New Testament that are about tithing.

Genesis 14:20 – Melchizedek comes out to meet Abraham, as Abraham gives him a tithe of the spoils of his victory.
Genesis 28:20-22 – After the vision of God’s renewed covenant, Jacob initiates a covenant with God vowing to give him a tithe of what he receives from the promised land.
Leviticus 27:30-32 – The specifications of tithing is introduced into the law of Moses.
Numbers 18:20-32 – The tithe is dedicated the Levites for the work in the tabernacle.
Deuteronomy 12:5-11 – God gives instructions for what to do with the tithe once Israel crosses the Jordan.
Deuteronomy 14:22-29 – God gives instructions on how to disperse and exchange the tithe.
Deuteronomy 26:12-15 – God gives instructions on how Israel should sanctify the tithe before they can ask for a blessing.
2 Chronicles 31:5-12 – The children of Israel do what’s right under the reign of Hezekiah, and bring the tithes to the designated places.
Nehemiah 10:37-38 – Israel obeys God and brings the tithes to the storehouse.
Nehemiah 12:44 – Officers were appointed to watch over the tithes in the storehouse.
Nehemiah 13:5-12 – Nehemiah cleanses the storehouse and kicks Tobiah out of the room that was designated to store the tithe. He then restores order.
Amos 4:4 – God commands Israel to bring back the tithe and reiterates the curse that is upon them if they don’t.
Malachi 3:8-10 – God reprimands Israel for not delivering the tithe, and reiterates the blessings and curse that would be in result of whatever decision they chose.
Matthew 23:23 – Jesus rebukes the Pharisees for not obeying the weightier matters of the law along with tithing.
Luke 11:42 – A parallel passage of Matthew 23:23 as Jesus rebukes the Pharisees for not obeying the weightier matters of the law along with tithing.
Luke 18:12 – A Pharisee brags about his obedience to the law and tithing.
Hebrews 7:5-9 – Abraham’s tithe is used to illustrate a change concerning the priesthood.

 

[kimg901]

Thanks for the clarification. I appreciate it.

Sounds like the bishops had a sense that these were people who were already not TBMs. They suspected that they were becoming apostates. That makes sense. An apostate would certainly be pulling back from tithing.

Any definitive reason you think it was the “higher ups” telling the bishops to do this, or just speculation on your part?

Just speculation Marie

 

[Pacos_Pete]

I have family members that are Catholic and they are welcomed in the family as much as any other member. I also have friends that their religion of choice is Catholic and LDS. However they don’t practice their religion. The operative words are “Religion of Choice.”
I watch EWTN and ask myself what do Catholics think when I see that nice old Nun reading the Rosary several times a day. She could read it in her sleep.
When I was a teen, I would haul a lady across town to Mass so she could pay the Father $5.00 to hear her confession. I didn’t think it strange it was her belief. By the way I am LDS from birth now for 76 years.
When I was in the military, there were solders that would party all week and go to confession every Sunday. Another Catholic solder said how many times will God forgive you for the same sins? Good question, I believe it is 70 times 7.
To be or not to be a Mormon or Catholic is the question. To each his own.

 

[Miriam1947]

I have family members that are Catholic and they are welcomed in the family as much as any other member. I also have friends that their religion of choice is Catholic and LDS. However they don’t practice their religion. The operative words are “Religion of Choice.”
I watch EWTN and ask myself what do Catholics think when I see that nice old Nun reading the Rosary several times a day. She could read it in her sleep.
**When I was a teen, I would haul a lady across town to Mass so she could pay the Father $5.00 to hear confession. I didn’t think it strange it was her belief. By the way I am LDS from birth now for 76 years. **
When I was in the military, there were solders that would party all week and go to confession every Sunday. Another Catholic solder said how many times will God forgive you for the same sins? Good question, I believe it is 70 times 7.
To be or not to be a Mormon or Catholic is the question. To each his own.

No one pays for confession ever.

 

[Pacos_Pete]

Maybe you don’t pay for confession and my quintessences are not being truthful when they told me they pay tithing when they go to confession before Mass.

 

[KathleenGee]

Agree. That is Pacos Pete’s spin, same kind of thinking anti-catholic preacher men use.

The old lady was almsgiving, the money to go to the poor. Actually, she was doing an exceptional act of repentance…to confess her sins and to give what little she had to the poor.
Pacos Pete, instead of assuming, you should have asked her if the priest told her to pay her before hearing her confession.

The servicemen reflect more the culture of those aspects of the military rather than Catholic. No Catholic priest tells people they can go to confession and keep on sinning.

Rather than coming to denigrating conclusions about the beliefs of Catholicism, which is a real blight in America, what the Church teaches is if a person goes to confession with no intent to change or reform, the person is committing a graver sin, the willful and ignorant use of the sacrament which is also a sacrilege.

We heard of testimony about my uncle at his funeral. He was a lieutenant in the Air Force and went incognito into enemy territory – both Nazi and Communist. His team members witnessed him getting on his knees every night in prayer before going to bed.

It is now a fact the military found out that 80% of American servicemen used brothels in Europe during WWII. This is a reflection on our sex saturated culture rather than Catholicism and lack of conversion to God.

 

[KathleenGee]

Tithing was a representation of ancient culture and time of need for the peoples of Salvation History in the Old Testament.

The Holy Spirit in the Church is the interpreter of Scripture, the Holy Spirit illuminating ancient happenings into new light of the Great Interpreter, Jesus Christ, Whose life, death and resurrection gave fulfilled meaning to the entire work of Sacred Scripture.

The ancient Christian worship, the liturgy was in place and practiced throughout the entire Christian world at that time, the same parts, tone , spirit, and intent. Only the rich were to support the weak and infirmed, and in that, they were to give freely of what they themselves chose to give, not some higher up.

Same with traditional American sense of economy. It is all based on self-reliance and freedom of spirit. Jesus Christ gives us the spirit of liberality and inner freedom and the additional freedom to act from our conscience.

Catholicism is all about context, and it is good to see people come on to CAF to learn our faith.

We do not study Sacred Scripture in bits and pieces simply because the nature and work of God among us is not in bits and pieces that appear at times to be disconnected from one another and make no sense.

God does not waste his time on nonsense or puzzling us or confusing us. You end up that way when you listen to false teachers.

 

[KathleenGee]

Marie,

I don’t know what they are doing there at the temple 24/7. I drive by in the night, and then I am coming back home about 6, 7, or 8 am depending on the case, but see all these cars there.

I took a peak two days ago, this in daytime, and saw alot of cars there. Busy place. Right at the entrance to the most affluent area in the state as well…

The saying goes here, ‘It’s all about location, location, location.’ this one right next to the freeway so everyone sees it on the interstate.

 

[Pacos_Pete]

Looks like we stirred up a hornets nest. I don’t know about you, however I will still pay what is expected of me.

 

[Marie5890]

Marie,

I don’t know what they are doing there at the temple 24/7. I drive by in the night, and then I am coming back home about 6, 7, or 8 am depending on the case, but see all these cars there.

I took a peak two days ago, this in daytime, and saw alot of cars there. Busy place. Right at the entrance to the most affluent area in the state as well…

The saying goes here, ‘It’s all about location, location, location.’ this one right next to the freeway so everyone sees it on the interstate.

Kathleen which temple is near you? If you live in a highly populated area of Mormons, yea those temples tend be more busy than others…

I know one is planned for the Hartford area. Which will decrease the busyness to the one in Mass, DC, and perhaps Manhattan.

I do believe that the cleaning and the janitorial care of temples is done overnight or while the temple is closed