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Marie5890
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God meets us where we are at and we are blesses
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Lochias
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Relativism does not become you. Just sayin’. God may bless individual people, but I have serious doubts that he blesses anything have to do with the LDS “church.”
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Lochias
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And then God expects us to do better, if needs be.God meets us where we are at and we are blesses
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RebeccaJ
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Marie, everything about Mormonism and blessings has a view of God as a vending machine. Put the right thing in, get the right thing out. If something isn’t going as it should in your life, you had better figure out what it is you need to get right, so the blessing vending machine will work.
Sorry, but I see a denial of grace. I never see an understanding in dialogue with LDS that they understand that Christ died for us while we were still sinners, and we cannot ever be worthy. They always seem to be about “God has left the building” and what can I do to make sure God sticks around.
We don’t need to pay money for God to bless us. Many people in the world are destitute. The answer isn’t telling them to pay up, and all will be well. In all the miracles Jesus performed he only asked that people do one thing: BELIEVE. Thinking you need to pay for God to bless you is messed up.
When we give alms it isn’t so God will bless us, it is because Jesus has called us to be His hands, feet and face to the poor. Centering alms on “what I get out of it” is viewing giving as an investment in self, when it is an investment in the “other”.
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Marie5890
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Of course there is a denial of grace. That isn’t part of their theology. But it doesnt mean God doesn’t meet each and everyone where they are at. Mormons who are BIC dont have the grace of baptism to assist them.
Do all Mormons view God as some sort of vending machine? I guess we would need the ability to enter into each Mormon’s head and make a judgement.
Do any Mormons do what they do as an expression of being faithful to their covenants. I say yes, they exists.
Again God meets each and everyone of us as individuals and where we are at. According the the graces received.
God is very merciful, and compassionate, and extremely patient. Even with Mormons, for He does understand where each and everyone of them is at. And He tries to shepard them as He does us.
I’ve always said on this board how distorted Mormonism is. I still say that. But I dont see a reason to say that many Mormons lack in their sincerity to what little they understand.
I have experienced God’s great mercy, compassion, charity and patience with me, a sinner. I have no doubt that He treats Mormons with the same. He clearly isnt wiping them off the planet.
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mtolympus
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This from the book of Mormon gives me my own belief and understanding of grace:
“Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.” (2 Nephi 10:24)
What Rebecca would interperate as our vending machine, I would interperate as reconciling myself to the will of God.
“Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.” (2 Nephi 10:24)
What Rebecca would interperate as our vending machine, I would interperate as reconciling myself to the will of God.
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KathleenGee
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The secure ground is to see and learn what is documented historical understanding of faith in Christ, the Creed and practice, and consistency, and its effect on the world around them.
So people have study salvation history objectively, no cherry picking sources or bias, but one that shows a balanced picture of Christian faith.
Unfortunately there is a draw back to ‘hidden’ gnostic writings that are sensationalized, pointing to conspiracy theories that such beliefs were hidden prior to discovery to show people today that what they have learned about Christianity is not true.
So then you are looking now at new beliefs that were suppressed up to now. That means you have 2000 years of no actual documentary, and subsequently, Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection were meaningless.
THINK. You were made in the image of God – the qualities being intellect and free will.
Use your God given intellect and reason to seek the truth.
So people have study salvation history objectively, no cherry picking sources or bias, but one that shows a balanced picture of Christian faith.
Unfortunately there is a draw back to ‘hidden’ gnostic writings that are sensationalized, pointing to conspiracy theories that such beliefs were hidden prior to discovery to show people today that what they have learned about Christianity is not true.
So then you are looking now at new beliefs that were suppressed up to now. That means you have 2000 years of no actual documentary, and subsequently, Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection were meaningless.
THINK. You were made in the image of God – the qualities being intellect and free will.
Use your God given intellect and reason to seek the truth.
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zaffiroborant
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And what does “party” mean?
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RebeccaJ
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Yes, that is true. There is what the Mormonchurch teaches, which is God-as-vending-machine, and what every individual Mormon may or may not believe. ParkerD found my telling him that God was not a vending machine, to be false. It has been pointed out, Mormonism teaches a childish view of God.
No doubt that is what some may believe. The problem is, Jesus Christ is our New and Everlasting covenant. Not tithing. So what is their covenant with? I’d say, a God of their imagination.
So, while I believe God in his mercy will judge people according to their understanding, that doesn’t mean I believe I should confirm people in their errors.
I’ve always said on this board how distorted Mormonism is. I still say that. But I dont see a reason to say that many Mormons lack in their sincerity to what little they understand.
I never said otherwise.
Obviously, God allows a lot to happen. That doesn’t mean what is false has been made true. It rains on the righteous and the wicked. We’re called to walk in the light, not in the darkness of a false religion that is in its purpose, opposed to Truth.He clearly isnt wiping them off the planet.
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RebeccaJ
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Our reconciliation to God is a grace, grace isn’t something that comes after our reconciliation. Grace is always there, a gift freely given. We are reconciled by grace, by which we are freed from the law. Why would you accept new laws when you have grace?This from the book of Mormon gives me my own belief and understanding of grace:
“Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.” (2 Nephi 10:24)
What Rebecca would interperate as our vending machine, I would interperate as reconciling myself to the will of God.
Romans 5
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Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
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through whom we have gained access [by faith] to this grace in which we stand, and we boast in hope of the glory of God.
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Not only that, but we even boast of our afflictions, knowing that affliction produces endurance,
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and endurance, proven character, and proven character, hope,
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and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out into our hearts through the holy Spirit that has been given to us.
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For Christ, while we were still helpless, yet died at the appointed time for the ungodly.
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Indeed, only with difficulty does one die for a just person, though perhaps for a good person one might even find courage to die.
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But God proves his love for us in that while we were still sinners Christ died for us.
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How much more then, since we are now justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath.
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Indeed, if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more, once reconciled, will we be saved by his life.
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Not only that, but we also boast of God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
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Our faith is in Jesus Christ, not in new laws.
And seriously, your Book of Mormon quote is stolen from St. Paul, though twisted into something else.
2 Corinthians 5
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Consequently, from now on we regard no one according to the flesh; even if we once knew Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know him so no longer.
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So whoever is in Christ is a new creation: the old things have passed away; behold, new things have come.
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And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation,
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namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
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So we are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
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For our sake he made him to be sin who did not know sin, so that we might become the righteousness of God in him.
It is Christ who has both reconciled you to God and who saves you. Reconciliation is not something you can do yourself, and certainly not by your own righteousness to a law. (See Romans 5-8)
We are called to follow Christ, forsaking sin and seeking forgiveness when we do sin. Forgiveness is a grace. Being reconciled through Christ is a grace. Grace is not something you generate, and neither is faith. Faith itself is a grace.
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mtolympus
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Paul “implores” us on behalf of Christ to be reconciled to God. This shows we have some responsibility in the new covenant.
Obedience is an important part of the new covenant, just as it was in the old covenant:
“Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.” (Heb. 5:8-9)
Paul gave the Romans, in the sixth chapter of that epistle, an extensive explanation of what is required of believers to receive the grace of Christ. One requirement is baptism, which is symbolic of Christ’s death and resurrection:
“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.” (Rom. 6:3-4)
When we are buried in the water, (baptism by immersion), it is symbolic of Christ’s death. And when we come up out of the water, like Christ being raised from the dead, we walk in newness of life. Our old sins are destroyed and we should no longer serve sin. It is at the time of baptism that we receive the grace of Christ and our sins are washed away. Paul continues to explain our obligation when we accept the grace of Christ by the covenant of Baptism:
“For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law but under grace? God forbid.
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine, which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin ye became the servants of righteousness.” (Rom. 6:14-18)
We were the servants of sin, but when we obey from the heart the doctrine we are taught, including baptism, we are “then made free from sin.”
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Marie5890
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I never said otherwise.
I am talking about God’s great love, patience, mercy, towards all. His meeting us where we are at in order to shepard us closer.
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Porknpie
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This is true. But obedience is believing in Christ … and following his teachings to the apostles and handed down to their descendants through the ages. The “you” is his bride on earth, his Catholic Church. By rejecting his Church, you are not listening to Christ and do not have the fullness of Truth.
Luke 10:16
“Whoever listens to you listens to me, and whoever rejects you rejects me, and whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.”
Believing in Joseph Smith is to believe in a new gospel…one that is a myth. Scripture warns us not to do so. And we are not to listen to a new Gospel, even if from an Angel (Galatians 1:8) Doing so is not to listen to Christ…and is to be disobedient. To believe that there was a “Great Apostasy” which not one can point to and that runs opposite of scripture (the Church grew, guided by the Holy Spirit, to ALL TRUTH) is to deny Christ.
2 Timothy
3 For the time is coming when people will not put up with sound doctrine, but having itching ears, they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own desires, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander away to myths.
Baptism is salvific not just symbolic. We are clensed from original sin, receive the Holy Spirit and are made members of the Christ’s body, his Catholic Church. Baptism is necessary for salvation. If it were symbolic, this would not be true.
Acts 2:38
Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Mark 16:16
The one who believes and is baptized will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned.
And the Early Church Fathers testify to baptism being salvific. Being made clean is not a symbolic act.
" ‘And dipped himself,’ says [the Scripture], ‘seven times in Jordan.’ It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but it served as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin,** we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.’"** Irenaeus, Fragment, 34 (A.D. 190).
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mtolympus
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Baptism is essential to clense us from our own sins. But Jesus took care of original sin regardless of whether or not we are baptized.
Of course it is true that baptism is necessary for salvation. Nevertheless, there is symbolism in baptism. We are buried by baptism in the “likeness” of the Christ’s death and then raised up “in the likeness of his resurrection”:
“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall also be in the likeness of his resurrection.” (Rom. 6:3-5)
We are literally made clean from sin by the atonement of Jesus Christ by the symbolic act of washing away our sins when we are baptised.
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Porknpie
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The bible is clear that ALL die in Adam. Adam brought sin into the world and with it death. This is original sin from which baptism saves us. This has nothing to do with our own sins. Christ died on the cross for OUR sins.
1 Corinthians 15
20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have died.[f] 21 For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; 22 for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
Romans 5
12 Therefore, just as **sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned **— 13 sin was indeed in the world before the law, but sin is not reckoned when there is no law
And through baptism, we are cleansed of orginal sin and are made members of the Body Of Christ.
Galatians 3
27 As many of you as were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ
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Marie5890
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MtOly,
I came to understand the idea of original sin in the traditional Christian understanding when I read how in the Orthodox tradition it’s referred to as Ancestral Sin, not Original Sin.
That made more sense.
Are we punished due to Adam and Eve’s sin and fall? No, we are not and are not held culpable. However, their sin did usher in a brokeness that all creation, human and otherwise, is subject to. A brokenness that includes death, all kinds of diseases etc etc.
May you and yours have a Blessed Easter.
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mtolympus
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Thank you! Happy Easter to you as well. I am looking forward to skyping with my grandkids later today.MtOly,
I came to understand the idea of original sin in the traditional Christian understanding when I read how in the Orthodox tradition it’s referred to as Ancestral Sin, not Original Sin.
That made more sense.
Are we punished due to Adam and Eve’s sin and fall? No, we are not and are not held culpable. However, their sin did usher in a brokeness that all creation, human and otherwise, is subject to. A brokenness that includes death, all kinds of diseases etc etc.
May you and yours have a Blessed Easter.
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Marie5890
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OH ENJOY!!!Thank you! Happy Easter to you as well. I am looking forward to skyping with my grandkids later today.
Skype is great!!
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mtolympus
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Porknpie- As you said, this scripture tells us that ALL die in Adam. That is original sin. But the verse ends “so ALL will be made alive in Christ.” Christ overcame original sin for ALL.
Yes, Christ did die on the cross for OUR sins. That is why it is called the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins:
“John did baptise in the wilderness, and did teach the baptism for repentance for the remission of sins. And there went out unto him all the land of Judea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordon, confessing their sins.” (Mark 1:4-5)
When John baptised in the wilderness they didn’t confess Adam’s sins because Christ overcame the fall of Adam for ALL. They confessed, repented and were baptised for their own sins. Here again we see they were baptized in the river Jordon implying baptism by immersion. There is no reason to go down into a river otherwise.
Yes, we are made members of the body of Christ through baptism, but the above scriptures do not tell us we are cleansed of original sin by baptism. Christ over came original sin on the cross for everyone. “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” (1 Cor 15:22)
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RebeccaJ
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Why baptize an 8 year old? Do you think they have committed a personal sin?
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