How is the LDS a cult?

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Below is a checklist to aid understanding if an organization is a cult. Reading it, I just go “check”, “check”, “check” … The internet is a great tool for current Mormons to examine their faith from really the best witnesses of all, ex-Mormons, many of whom but not all, view Mormonism as a cult. This is the subject in question posed on the thread and it is a good one to ask, especially if the debate causes current Mormons to re-examine their faith. If someone disagrees with my checks below, please post why not. If one should be checked and it is not, please post why.

Characteristics Associated with Cultic Groups - Revised ( Lalich, Ph.D. & Michael D. Langone, Ph.D.)

Concerted efforts at influence and control lie at the core of cultic groups, programs, and relationships. Many members, former members, and supporters of cults are not fully aware of the extent to which members may have been manipulated, exploited, even abused. The following list of social-structural, social-psychological, and interpersonal behavioral patterns commonly found in cultic environments may be helpful in assessing a particular group or relationship.

-‪ The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law. DOUBLE CHECK

-‪ Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished. CHECK

-‪ Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).
  • The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth). CHECK
-‪ The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity). CHECK

-‪ The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society. CHECK

-‪ The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations). CHECK

-‪ The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members’ participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities). CHECK

-‪ The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt iin order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion. CHECK
 
To my friend above me,

Some would argue that from this checklist Catholicism is a cult and regardless this is how this one study/person defines a cult. Not, how others would define a cult.

Tell me, based on that study, would you like others to use this study so that we are called a cult simply because Questioning, doubt, etc is discouraged. We can be quite an elitist denomination, being the one true Catholic Church. Polarized us versus them, catholicism, one true church and faith. The leadership induces feeling of guilt such as excommunication… The leadership dictates things… Zealous and unquestionable beliefs. (Congregation of doctrine of faith) Leadership idolized, leader of a holy church, infallible in certain circumstances

So, if you place so much importance on this study then perhaps you should also look up about Catholicism as many would argue that it could be called a cult based on this.

Please, you still haven’t listened to what I have said only strengthened it. Now, from this checklist I am sure that you would not like your own religion to be called a cult.

EVERY EVERY religion has the habit of making itself superior to others. Through this it spreads and prospers easier than ‘submissive’ religions. Just as there are little Christian (especially) denominations which don’t evangelise and consider themselves a supreme faith.

Again, I don’t think that you would enjoy your own religion being called a cult. The OP really hit the nail on the head when saying that based on these cult definitions we are a cult aswell. ‘Cult’ is merely a word to delegitimize smaller religions that are new and that threaten the larger established religions. Mind you! I would consider the Children of God ‘church’ a cult. Simply because it resorts to extremely disgusting and immoral habits. Child-abusing sect, horrendous. However, I don’t see enough evidence (if any) to call Mormonism a cult based on this.
THUS:

“Do unto others as you would want done unto you”
 
Jesusissacred said:
To my friend above me,

Some would argue that from this checklist Catholicism is a cult and regardless this is how this one study/person defines a cult. Not, how others would define a cult.

Tell me, based on that study, would you like others to use this study so that we are called a cult simply because Questioning, doubt, etc is discouraged. We can be quite an elitist denomination, being the one true Catholic Church. Polarized us versus them, catholicism, one true church and faith. The leadership induces feeling of guilt such as excommunication… The leadership dictates things… Zealous and unquestionable beliefs. (Congregation of doctrine of faith) Leadership idolized, leader of a holy church, infallible in certain circumstances

So, if you place so much importance on this study then perhaps you should also look up about Catholicism as many would argue that it could be called a cult based on this.

Please, you still haven’t listened to what I have said only strengthened it. Now, from this checklist I am sure that you would not like your own religion to be called a cult.

EVERY EVERY religion has the habit of making itself superior to others. Through this it spreads and prospers easier than ‘submissive’ religions. Just as there are little Christian (especially) denominations which don’t evangelise and consider themselves a supreme faith.

Again, I don’t think that you would enjoy your own religion being called a cult. The OP really hit the nail on the head when saying that based on these cult definitions we are a cult aswell. ‘Cult’ is merely a word to delegitimize smaller religions that are new and that threaten the larger established religions. Mind you! I would consider the Children of God ‘church’ a cult. Simply because it resorts to extremely disgusting and immoral habits. Child-abusing sect, horrendous. However, I don’t see enough evidence (if any) to call Mormonism a cult based on this.
THUS:

“Do unto others as you would want done unto you”
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Catholics who leave Catholicism do not refer to it as a cult. The same can not be said of many who leave the Mormon church. The post is asking how is it a cult? I am providing a frame of reference that was created by someone else, likely not even a Catholic. One could argue that the Mormon church is not a cult based on the points provided or they could provide additional insight to say why it is not a cult.

Based on your points above on the Catholic church my pithy response is that the church is comprised of sinners, sometimes bad ones but on faith and morals the church teaches without error. The question on the Mormon church is not about individual sinners but on the faith, practices and doctrines of their church.

To be clear, I have friends who are Mormon and I love them. But, they are being misled, the book of mormon is a lie and the current Mormon leadership, especially the so called prophet is deceiving them, risking their salvation.
 
Jesusissacred said:
EVERY EVERY religion has the habit of making itself superior to others. Through this it spreads and prospers easier than ‘submissive’ religions. Just as there are little Christian (especially) denominations which don’t evangelise and consider themselves a supreme faith.

Again, I don’t think that you would enjoy your own religion being called a cult. The OP really hit the nail on the head when saying that based on these cult definitions we are a cult aswell. ‘Cult’ is merely a word to delegitimize smaller religions that are new and that threaten the larger established religions. Mind you! I would consider the Children of God ‘church’ a cult. Simply because it resorts to extremely disgusting and immoral habits. Child-abusing sect, horrendous. However, I don’t see enough evidence (if any) to call Mormonism a cult based on this.
THUS:

“Do unto others as you would want done unto you”
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I do agree with you that calling the Mormons a “cult” is not necessarily the best way to facilitate dialogue. But to make the leap that you are making that you should simply live and let live about other people’s religions is not going to fly with many on this board, and I’ll explain why.

First, I think that most ex-Mormons who refute the claims of Mormons who come to this board are not saying you (the royal “You” meaning those who are on the pro-Mormon side of the argument) are wrong because Catholicism is right. They are saying you are wrong because no matter the truth on the correctness of Catholicism, there is no way that the Mormon church could be right. There is no way that an ancient people lived in the Americas and there’s no way that a battle where 10,000 men died happened on a hill in northern New York state, and there’s no way that Joseph Smith read an Egyptian burial papyrus and translated it into the words that he said he did in the Book of Abraham, and there’s no way that those stories in the Book of Abraham are in any way related to the temple ceremonies that were almost completely lifted from the Scottish Rite Masonic ceremonies. No matter the legitimacy or falsity of any other religion on earth, the Mormon religion simply is not founded on truth.

Second, you say “Do unto others.” We are on a Catholic board, talking with other Catholics about Catholic based subjects. Mormons come on this board to “refute” lies about their church and to proselyze. You may not see the proselyzation as those of us who used to be Mormon see it, but we know the tricks and the tactics used by Mormons to “lie for the Lord” to convert people. We’re not going to their boards to try to convert them. They’re coming to our boards, our turf as it were. We are not on the offensive so much as the defensive. We refuse to let one soul be lost if there is anything we can do to stop it.

Thirdly, when I was Mormon, many people were very cruel to me about my beliefs. I was verbally assaulted, given looks of pity, and told many times that people would pray for me. I just saw it as they were under the influence of Satan, because I knew that the Mormon church was true and that anything that was not pro-Mormon was influence by the dark side. I truly believed that in my heart. But looking back, I have no doubt that those prayers, even by Baptists and Evangelicals, helped me to receive the graces I needed to leave the Church and to leave the lies behind.

Those of us who are ex-Mormon still carry, and will always carry, many scars left from our days as Mormons. We know how hard it is to even have a doubt about the faith without tremendous guilt, and we all remember that struggle when we first started to allow ourselves doubts. I feel confident that most who left the church can remember that one moment when it really hit us that the whole church was a lie. (I was in a bookstore in Mesquite, TX). Many of us who left the church lost relations with our families, our friends, and some have even been handed divorce papers by their TBM spouse due to their leaving the church. Many of us still fight demons of doubt, of “checklist” spirituality, and we still find ourselves falling into habits that we learned as Mormons, such as standing up for our faith. We refuse to let anyone suffer like this, to live with these lies and then to have to recover from them.
 
HonoraDominum said:
I do agree with you that calling the Mormons a “cult” is not necessarily the best way to facilitate dialogue. But to make the leap that you are making that you should simply live and let live about other people’s religions is not going to fly with many on this board, and I’ll explain why.

First, I think that most ex-Mormons who refute the claims of Mormons who come to this board are not saying you (the royal “You” meaning those who are on the pro-Mormon side of the argument) are wrong because Catholicism is right. They are saying you are wrong because no matter the truth on the correctness of Catholicism, there is no way that the Mormon church could be right. There is no way that an ancient people lived in the Americas and there’s no way that a battle where 10,000 men died happened on a hill in northern New York state, and there’s no way that Joseph Smith read an Egyptian burial papyrus and translated it into the words that he said he did in the Book of Abraham, and there’s no way that those stories in the Book of Abraham are in any way related to the temple ceremonies that were almost completely lifted from the Scottish Rite Masonic ceremonies. No matter the legitimacy or falsity of any other religion on earth, the Mormon religion simply is not founded on truth.

Second, you say “Do unto others.” We are on a Catholic board, talking with other Catholics about Catholic based subjects. Mormons come on this board to “refute” lies about their church and to proselyze. You may not see the proselyzation as those of us who used to be Mormon see it, but we know the tricks and the tactics used by Mormons to “lie for the Lord” to convert people. We’re not going to their boards to try to convert them. They’re coming to our boards, our turf as it were. We are not on the offensive so much as the defensive. We refuse to let one soul be lost if there is anything we can do to stop it.

Thirdly, when I was Mormon, many people were very cruel to me about my beliefs. I was verbally assaulted, given looks of pity, and told many times that people would pray for me. I just saw it as they were under the influence of Satan, because I knew that the Mormon church was true and that anything that was not pro-Mormon was influence by the dark side. I truly believed that in my heart. But looking back, I have no doubt that those prayers, even by Baptists and Evangelicals, helped me to receive the graces I needed to leave the Church and to leave the lies behind.

Those of us who are ex-Mormon still carry, and will always carry, many scars left from our days as Mormons. We know how hard it is to even have a doubt about the faith without tremendous guilt, and we all remember that struggle when we first started to allow ourselves doubts. I feel confident that most who left the church can remember that one moment when it really hit us that the whole church was a lie. (I was in a bookstore in Mesquite, TX). Many of us who left the church lost relations with our families, our friends, and some have even been handed divorce papers by their TBM spouse due to their leaving the church. Many of us still fight demons of doubt, of “checklist” spirituality, and we still find ourselves falling into habits that we learned as Mormons, such as standing up for our faith. We refuse to let anyone suffer like this, to live with these lies and then to have to recover from them.
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Live and let other people’s religions fly is Religious Freedom. You can’t suppress a religion no matter how much hatred you feel towards it. However, I have to agree there are certain doctrines I find personally very unbelievable (You can be gods on other planets) but I do think that people should be ENTITLED to their beliefs even if its odd like that. If the point of the discussion was not (Oh, Lord, save them from their cultist beliefs that are risking their salvation and their mentality) and was rather (I really don’t believe in these doctrines because…etc.) I would take a different viewpoint on this.

I hope now that you understand my drift. They do have unbelievable doctrines(IMHO) but I still believe that every religion should have the respect it deserves especially one with millions of believers.

Mormons have done evangelising at my estate before. I simply told them that “I am a Catholic and I don’t find your doctrines believable but I tell them that they are entitled to their beliefs as am I” and then wave them farewell.

I also don’t really believe that the LDS members come onto these forums to evangelise; there is absolutely no evidence. You can suspect it but you can’t claim it. They may come here for interfaith dialogue and to try and understand Catholic beliefs. Look, the Pope has told people that their doctrines are not Christian in the Church’s opinion. That’s fine! Although some Mormons wouldn’t like it, this is theological opinions which each denomination is entitled to. However, saying that they are evil, liars, deceivers and that their baptisms cause demonic possession can really be edging on religious hatred.

Let’s just give these people their respect as we would want our respect as Catholics.
 
Jesusissacred said:
Live and let other people’s religions fly is Religious Freedom. You can’t suppress a religion no matter how much hatred you feel towards it. However, I have to agree there are certain doctrines I find personally very unbelievable (You can be gods on other planets) but I do think that people should be ENTITLED to their beliefs even if its odd like that. If the point of the discussion was not (Oh, Lord, save them from their cultist beliefs that are risking their salvation and their mentality) and was rather (I really don’t believe in these doctrines because…etc.) I would take a different viewpoint on this.

I hope now that you understand my drift. They do have unbelievable doctrines(IMHO) but I still believe that every religion should have the respect it deserves especially one with millions of believers.

Mormons have done evangelising at my estate before. I simply told them that “I am a Catholic and I don’t find your doctrines believable but I tell them that they are entitled to their beliefs as am I” and then wave them farewell.

I also don’t really believe that the LDS members come onto these forums to evangelise; there is absolutely no evidence. You can suspect it but you can’t claim it. They may come here for interfaith dialogue and to try and understand Catholic beliefs. Look, the Pope has told people that their doctrines are not Christian in the Church’s opinion. That’s fine! Although some Mormons wouldn’t like it, this is theological opinions which each denomination is entitled to. However, saying that they are evil, liars, deceivers and that their baptisms cause demonic possession can really be edging on religious hatred.

Let’s just give these people their respect as we would want our respect as Catholics.
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Mormons are entitled to their beliefs and can believe anything that they want. But when they are on these Catholic boards, talking about the “truth” of Mormon prophets and the Book of Mormon, they have to understand that those of us who do not believe these things are going to say, “Um, no.”

There is a difference between respect, dialogue, and arguing. I believe that allowing Mormons to present facts that I know to be false and refuting those facts is not showing a lack of respect, it is discussion. When certain people start to get more, shall we say, indignant about their religion, I have absolutely no problem playing hardball.

I also do not think you’ve been around enough to see the evangelizing that has happened. When they start talking about the “beauty” of the temple, and the 'amazing spiritual experiences" they’ve had there, they are evangelizing. Any time they start to talk about the truth of their religion, they are testifying to us of their beliefs in the hopes that we will convert. I have been Mormon, I used these techniques. Every non-Mormon was a potential convert and was treated as such.

To call Mormons “evil” is a stretch, yes. My family is Mormon as is my best friend’s family, and these are good, honest people who believe they are doing God’s will. But just because they are kind does not mean they are not wrong. The Mormon church is based on lies, and people who promote these beliefs, no matter how kind they are or how much they believe them, are liars. Anyone who says that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Abraham from Egyptian papyri is a liar, inasmuch as what they are saying is a lie. They may not know it is a lie, but it is.

I have never once said anything about demonic possession (although I firmly believe that the “angels” that Joseph Smith saw were simply demons who appeared as angels of light as mentioned in 2 Corinthians 11:14). I do believe that Satan uses the Mormon church to deceive those who wish to love God, and blinds those decieved by the Church from knowing the true nature of God.

Long story short, if Mormons come on this board, and try to tell people about the nature of their sacraments or even their temple ceremonies, that’s one thing. When they start to talk about their prophets, or their priesthood, or the truthfulness of their books, I’m going to say, No, that’s not true. Because it’s not. That is not a lack of respect, that is exposing lies so as to save others from being deceived.
 
Jesusissacred said:
I am a baptised Catholic but I identify with universalist beliefs. Yet, I visit a Catholic Church, etc. So before using my religious beliefs in an argument be careful!

Cult, as I have said in my previous posts, is a word used to delegitimize smaller religions. It was invented by fundamentalist evangelical Christians back in 1900s against the influx of New Religious Movements. They felt threatened by it and this is the only reason it is called a cult. To call 18 million believers, cultists, I am sorry but I really feel that it is harsh and ignorant.
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The size of a group does not define it as a cult. One key definer is how they follow their leader
Ezra Taft Benson:
In conclusion let us summarize this grand key, these “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet”, for our salvation depends on them.
  1. The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.
    **2. The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.
  2. The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.**
  3. The prophet will never lead the church astray.
    5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.
  4. The prophet does not have to say “Thus Saith the Lord,” to give us scripture.
  5. The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.
    **8. The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.
  6. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.**
  7. The prophet may advise on civic matters.
  8. The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.
  9. The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.
  10. The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church.
  11. The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed—reject them and suffer.
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I have seen so many definitions of a cult that I truly believe that people change it depending on the NRM they are talking about.

By the way, I do agree that their beliefs are not true, in my opinion. Yet, I do not believe that they are liars! Some atheists would argue that we spread lies about something that doesn’t exist.

I agree that they are overzealous in the way they treat their prophet but we treat our Pope in a very good manner. Obviously, not by the definition above me but we still treat him in a very important manner.

Look, my main argument has been to give them the respect they deserve. You aren’t giving them any respect by calling them cultists. You can disagree with their doctrines, etc. But don’t call them cultists.

Anyways, tis been a nice debate with you guys. I’m logging off now.

Thanks!

HonoraDominium, it was another post that said the thing about demonic possession… Not you.
 
Jesusissacred said:
I have seen so many definitions of a cult that I truly believe that people change it depending on the NRM they are talking about.

By the way, I do agree that their beliefs are not true, in my opinion. Yet, I do not believe that they are liars! Some atheists would argue that we spread lies about something that doesn’t exist.

I agree that they are overzealous in the way they treat their prophet but we treat our Pope in a very good manner. Obviously, not by the definition above me but we still treat him in a very important manner.

Look, my main argument has been to give them the respect they deserve. You aren’t giving them any respect by calling them cultists. You can disagree with their doctrines, etc. But don’t call them cultists.

Anyways, tis been a nice debate with you guys. I’m logging off now.

Thanks!

HonoraDominium, it was another post that said the thing about demonic possession… Not you.
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My definition is basically the Catholic one from the Latin colere. Except for how they follow their “prophet” It has nothing to do with what they believe or how they act. Therefore ‘cult’ is not degrading but just a fact. Because my definition does not change I never thought of Mormonism as a cult until I read how Mormon leadership describes their President as an unquestioned, irrational, leader on all subjects, and then read posts here on CAF which supported that description.

As you said, we do not treat the Pope that way, that is why we are not a cult.
 
Your above definition is reasonable and I do agree that they treat their Prophet in a very idolized way.

However, what really got me going was when people used their beliefs and doctrines to call them a Cult. Simply because they had a book of Mormon, etc. However, if the definition is that they treat their leader in a way idolized fashion then I am willing to concede that that definition is reasonable enough for the LDS church. Although, many other NRMs have been called cults even if they don’t idolize their leader. Hare Krishna was called a cult and they didn’t really idolize their leader to the extent that the LDS Church did. This is why calling religions cults can be a very tricky situation and that is what I meant by delegitimize.
 
Jesusissacred said:
Your above definition is reasonable and I do agree that they treat their Prophet in a very idolized way.

However, what really got me going was when people used their beliefs and doctrines to call them a Cult. Simply because they had a book of Mormon, etc. However, if the definition is that they treat their leader in a way idolized fashion then I am willing to concede that that definition is reasonable enough for the LDS church. Although, many other NRMs have been called cults even if they don’t idolize their leader. Hare Krishna was called a cult and they didn’t really idolize their leader to the extent that the LDS Church did. This is why calling religions cults can be a very tricky situation and that is what I meant by delegitimize.
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Have you ever been LDS?
 
Porknpie said:
Below is a checklist to aid understanding if an organization is a cult. Reading it, I just go “check”, “check”, “check” … The internet is a great tool for current Mormons to examine their faith from really the best witnesses of all, ex-Mormons, many of whom but not all, view Mormonism as a cult. This is the subject in question posed on the thread and it is a good one to ask, especially if the debate causes current Mormons to re-examine their faith. If someone disagrees with my checks below, please post why not. If one should be checked and it is not, please post why.

Characteristics Associated with Cultic Groups - Revised ( Lalich, Ph.D. & Michael D. Langone, Ph.D.)

Concerted efforts at influence and control lie at the core of cultic groups, programs, and relationships. Many members, former members, and supporters of cults are not fully aware of the extent to which members may have been manipulated, exploited, even abused. The following list of social-structural, social-psychological, and interpersonal behavioral patterns commonly found in cultic environments may be helpful in assessing a particular group or relationship.

-‪ The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law. DOUBLE CHECK

-‪ Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished. CHECK

-‪ Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).
  • The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth). CHECK
-‪ The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity). CHECK

-‪ The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society. CHECK

-‪ The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations). CHECK

-‪ The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members’ participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities). CHECK

-‪ The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt iin order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion. CHECK
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WELLDONE,
THANKS,
pat/PJM
 
zippity said:
Watched a few video’s of what goes on in temple. Marks and meaning etc, handshakes… Pardon me but itseems like some sort of adult perhaps? game. I believe God to be more intelligent than to do what was shown, asking for markds, meanings, handshakes and whatnot’s. You, Mormons, might believe ya gotta know all that and wear your garments etc. Siliness to me as my God needs no such games. He knows all. I don’t believe He cares a fig about handshakes etc but the state of my heart and life.

This is IMO.
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From the outside what we Catholics do seems like silly adult games too. You know that right?

All the standing, sitting, kneeling, bowing, prostating, ceremony, liturgy… etc. etc. etc.
 
nickybr38 said:
From the outside what we Catholics do seems like silly adult games too. You know that right?

All the standing, sitting, kneeling, bowing, prostating, ceremony, liturgy… etc. etc. etc.
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It can look that way, but there are some key differences.
  1. Anyone of any religion(or none) can enter a Catholic Chapel, Church, Cathedral, Basillica, etc. That cannot be said for mormons and their temples.
  2. Catholics (if knowledgeable) are more than happy to explain anything that occurs during Mass. Mormons won’t discuss anything that goes on in their temples.
 
nickybr38 said:
From the outside what we Catholics do seems like silly adult games too. You know that right?

All the standing, sitting, kneeling, bowing, prostating, ceremony, liturgy… etc. etc. etc.
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Do you understand why we do that?

I will send you a great video of ‘why’ catholics stand, sit, kneel and bow youtube.com/watch?v=8NFuu6W392k

Honestly, How can you compare the Temple hand symbols with the Catholic Mass. Sure we may look strange to outsiders- however, we have a good reason.
 
zippity said:
Watched a few video’s of what goes on in temple. Marks and meaning etc, handshakes… Pardon me but itseems like some sort of adult perhaps? game. I believe God to be more intelligent than to do what was shown, asking for markds, meanings, handshakes and whatnot’s. You, Mormons, might believe ya gotta know all that and wear your garments etc. Siliness to me as my God needs no such games. He knows all. I don’t believe He cares a fig about handshakes etc but the state of my heart and life.

This is IMO.
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The Temple and the rites and ordinances performed there are symbolic just as baptism and the sacrament are symbolic. Additionally they cannot be separated from the covenants made. They have a much deeper meaning then the outward forms.

Let me compare this to the sacrament (communion). What if I explained it this way to someone who had never seen the ordinance: When you take the sacrament you pretend that bread represents Christ’s body. You then eat it. You also pretend that the water (wine) represents Christ’s blood and you drink it. I can imagine this person thinking it was absolutely strange and maybe a little dark. However, for someone who understands, for someone who gets the meaning and purpose of the ordinance, it is revelatory. So it is with temple ordinances for the LDS. I’m afraid you might be judging them prematurely.
 
Janderich said:
The Temple and the rites and ordinances performed there are symbolic just as baptism and the sacrament are symbolic. Additionally they cannot be separated from the covenants made. They have a much deeper meaning then the outward forms.

Let me compare this to the sacrament (communion). What if I explained it this way to someone who had never seen the ordinance: When you take the sacrament you pretend that bread represents Christ’s body. You then eat it. You also pretend that the water (wine) represents Christ’s blood and you drink it. I can imagine this person thinking it was absolutely strange and maybe a little dark. However, for someone who understands, for someone who gets the meaning and purpose of the ordinance, it is revelatory. So it is with temple ordinances for the LDS. I’m afraid you might be judging them prematurely.
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Sorry I don’t PRETEND that it is the body and blood of Christ.
 
nickybr38 said:
From the outside what we Catholics do seems like silly adult games too. You know that right?

All the standing, sitting, kneeling, bowing, prostating, ceremony, liturgy… etc. etc. etc.
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Which, are not secret things we know and believe are required to be with God in the next life. They are forms of worship, the whole body involved.

Mormons can’t say the same. If a Mormon has ever explained their secret handshakes as a form of worship, I’d like to see that!

Or explain why kneeling isn’t a part of their services.
 
LivingWaters7 said:
Demonstrate the false generalizations and ad hominems.
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Fault generalization, in your attempts to equate a Mormon practice to a Catholic practice.

Ad hominems by not addressing what I’m saying, but instead choosing to say I am painting a caricature.

All in all, failing to address the arguments that are presented to you, at all.
The issue, as is clear from my actual post, is “choice”. Evangelicals frequently criticize the Catholic Church by claiming that clerical celibacy goes against the Biblical condemnation of those who “forbid to marry”.
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So what? What Evangelicals think about a Catholic practice has nothing to do with a Mormon practice.
The Catholic response is that priests are not forbidden to marry, they choose not to be and remain as such after ordination. If a Catholic priest decides to get married, there are obvious consequences. Similarly, a Latter-day Saint makes a choice to pay tithing (as well as follow all the other commandments). If they do not, there are consequences (and of course the atonement of Jesus Christ is operative).
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A Mormon has no choice, you believe you must be endowed if you hope to know God’s presence in the next life.

A Catholic doesn’t have to be ordained a priest to know God’s presence in the next life.

That you keep trying to generalize a Mormon who is endowed, to a man who is ordained a priest, is a faulty generalization.

Put into what defines what is required to judged with God in the next life, ordination to the Priesthood is NOT required for the entire population of Catholics. Endowment for Mormons is required for the entire population. What choice has your God given you? Be endowed, or don’t know his presence. Catholics do not have to be ordained in order to know God’s presence.

This has nothing to do with celibacy of priests.
Oh dear. Obviously I know that. Where in the post did I claim that Latter-day Saints call baptism an initiation (to be clear, we do believe that baptism is an initiation or entrance into the Church of Jesus Christ, and there are a few LDS references to those baptized as being “initiated”, and it is through baptism and confirmation that we become members of The Church of Jesus Christ)? What I actually stated was “The Latter-day Saint equivalent of the Catholic “initiatory rituals” are of course baptism, confirmation, and the Sacrament.”
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That isn’t what we were talking about. We were talking about Mormon temple initiations. Which are secret and require that you have paid your 10%. Even your marriages are secret. There are no secret initiations in the Catholic Church. Period. Our initiation into the Kingdom of God are baptism, confirmation, eucharist.

Mormons REQUIRE an endowment, that REQUIRE you have paid 10% of your income for at least a year. To maintain the status you must continue to pay 10%. Surely you can see that there is no comparison in Catholicism, anywhere?

Changing the subject isn’t an “oh dear”, it is a diversion.
 
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