How is the LDS a cult?

[TexanKnight]

Don’t you just hate it when that happens?

lol…

 

[TexanKnight]

I appreciate the question.

In my own words, I believe I am a literal child of God, who is literally my Father in heaven. I believe there is a spark of the divine in me, I am created in His image, with the potential to be like Him. I believe Christ’s claim in John 16:15 is literally true, and I believe what Romans 8:17 says about it, and I believe Romans 8:17 is also to be taken literally. In plain words, my beliefs about exhaltation do not reduce God, they elevate man.

I understand the concept of deification, of exhaltation, the notion that being joint-heirs with Christ, upsets many non-LDS Christians. I understand a mormon’s concept of a Godhead is different than the triune concept held by so many other Christians. I have no problem with people who have a problem with my beliefs. Mormons do indeed have a very different concept of the nature of God than Catholics. But we can have honest disagreements, without all the sensationalistic word-twisting can’t we? I can believe I have divine potential, without believing “god is just a man”, can’t I?

I have heard speculation on the nature and history of God from members or leaders of my church. Everyone is free to speculate as far as the day is long, without it being a “teaching” that I am bound to believe in order to be a “good mormon”. Just because some mormon believed it, doesn’t mean I automatically do. There’s an old joke: Catholics believe the pope is infallible, but nobody believes them. Mormons believe the prophet is fallible, but nobody believes them either. I get to go by scripture and revealation, not by some interpretation of some comment by some church leader. And pretty much every mormon believes the same.

Thanks for the question, Steve.

I am pleased that you reject the teachings of your prophets.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I have found that, as soon as Mormons discover I am a former Mormon who served as a missionary, in the Bishopric and in the Elder’s Quorum Presidency, they stop responding to me. They realize I know the truth.

I think it is all about proselyting. As soon as Mormons hear you were once Mormon, they know they aren’t going to convert you. So they spend their time on targets who have never been Mormon. Of course, a bit of time is spent with ad hominems against former LDS, instead of addressing what we are saying they go off on the grand Mormon pat time of character assassination. It’s all blah, blah, blah.

 

[TexanKnight]

Interestingly I see the same sort of response that is being ridiculed here, over at CARM forums, where, on the Catholic section, there is a multitude of ex-Catholics, extolling their “credentials”, and how they “know” what Catholics really teach, believe, and do. Even on this very forum, there are instances of Catholics asking to not be told what they “really” believe, etc by ex-Catholics and never-Catholics. It is certainly a valid argument, and has nothing to do with an “automatic persecution card”. This doesn’t automatically mean that ex-[insert religion] are not knowledgeable or cannot share their experiences.

Interestingly enough, the “others do it to” is not an answer I have since I taught 4th grade.

And, I am not sure how many of the ex-Catholics were missionaries, in the bishopric, in the EQ presidency, and a EQ teacher.

I was.

And I only speak the truth

 

[batman1973]

Interestingly I see the same sort of response that is being ridiculed here, over at CARM forums, where, on the Catholic section, there is a multitude of ex-Catholics, extolling their “credentials”, and how they “know” what Catholics really teach, believe, and do. Even on this very forum, there are instances of Catholics asking to not be told what they “really” believe, etc by ex-Catholics and never-Catholics. It is certainly a valid argument, and has nothing to do with an “automatic persecution card”. This doesn’t automatically mean that ex-[insert religion] are not knowledgeable or cannot share their experiences.

I am offended by that statement sir. I was a “Generations deep” Mormon. I know more about your “church” than I do anything else. In fact, I’m the only non-mormon in my family. And, having belonged to both the LDS and RLDS “churches” I have a real good grasp on the teachings of the so-called “Restored Christianity” I have read many books written by “prophets” and “apostles” of your “church”, in addition to the Bible,(Including Joseph’s Inspired Version) the Book of Mormon, The Doctrine and Covenants (Both LDS and RLDS), The Pearl of Great Price, the Lectures on Faith, and tons of Church History. My “credentials” as it were, came from 20+years in both LDS and RLDS. I know that you and your fellow Mormons on here are trying to “soft-sell” your faith. You and your comrades consistanly avoid the tough questions, most likely you either know we are right, or, that you have no real idea what the “Church” teaches.

 

[Geocacher]

Having been Mormon since Oct 30, 1971, is a very long time, and I became interested in the Catholic Church in the 1990’s, and was fortunate to have been baptized in the congregational church then Presbyterian church, before that. Have had issues since long before this internet, about the temple, etc.

 

[Fatboys]

I have found that, as soon as Mormons discover I am a former Mormon who served as a missionary, in the Bishopric and in the Elder’s Quorum Presidency, they stop responding to me. They realize I know the truth.

This is funny. Some of the less gospel savy people I know have been Bishops Elder’s Quorum leaders. If you could not find truth within the mormon church, then mormons really don’t have much to talk to you about. You are on two different pages. Many times when ex mormons speak, they are not pleasant to talke to because they are trample of things which are still sacred to those who believe. Please tell me you have not trampled on things we hold sacred.

 

[LivingWaters7]

But we aren’t talking about, and haven’t been talking about the behavior of other people on other sites are we?

We weren’t talking about “automatic persecution card” or who is an ex-Latter-day Saint, and whether they know what they were taught and experienced, or the behavior of people on this very site, yet you deemed it okay to bring that up, correct? Clearly I referenced other sites to demonstrate that what you are attempting to argue as a negative is done by members of your own faith on forums where they are not, essentially, on their “home turf”.

You can find pro/anti sites for everything under the sun, so your observation is a non-sequitor

Please demonstrate that my observation is a “non-sequitor” (sic). My point was that your posts that I was referencing are merely poisoning the well, and that the behavior that you decry is demonstrated by people of all faiths on forums where they are, essentially, on the defense, including Catholics on forums like CARM. It is a perfectly natural and logical response to those ex-[insert religion] that attempt to present themselves as experts, many times over actual members of [insert religion] (note that this is not referring to all ex-[insert any religion]).

Please provide a reference for where a former Catholic on this board has tried to tell a practicing Catholic what we believe.

As far as non/never Catholics, that happens so often from extreme evangelicals that it becomes amusing. Especially when their “arguments” are shot down swiftly.

I’ll be anxious to see if your “reference” is someone who has gone to an extreme fundamentalist/evangelical church.

Firstly, why would it matter if they went to an Evangelical church? This seems to be moving the goal posts, as well as setting down premises where a response can already be dismissed out of hand. It is not relevant to my argument what church or religion that ex-[insert religion] goes to. What is relevant, and what goes back to the argument you were making, is that there are many ex-Catholics, some even on this forum, that claim that they know what they are talking about, present their credentials (as if done by some ex-Latter-day Saints on this forum), and know what Catholics “really” do and believe, who are then told by the believing Catholics that they shouldn’t be told what they believe when they themselves are practicing and believing Catholics.

One example on this forum is “Atemi”, who is now banned. He/she posts quite frequently on CARM, and presents himself/herself as an ex-Catholic that “knows” what Catholics really believe, teach, and do, and is therefore, essentially, an “authority”. “Radical” is also another example (most likely of the “never-Catholic”). I also see this numerous times in the Orthodox threads (generally they are “never-Catholic”). Just take a look at any of the current Orthodox related threads on this forum, especially in regards to “original sin”. That should suffice (and I hope that we will not make this thread about individual posters).

Anyway, the point, as has already been made, is that just because someone is an ex-[insert religion] doesn’t automatically mean that they are an authority on their former religion, regardless of their credentials, as it seems to be your argument for some of the ex-Latter-day Saints on this forum. People are certainly welcome to share their experiences and beliefs, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that said experiences are the same as others, and NeuroTypical was certainly right to state that he should not be told what he believes by someone else, whether or not that person is an ex member of our Faith. The same goes for ex-Catholics telling Catholics what they believe and practice (as I’ve seen many times over at CARM and other forums, and at times on this one).

 

[LivingWaters7]

I think it is all about proselyting. As soon as Mormons hear you were once Mormon, they know they aren’t going to convert you. So they spend their time on targets who have never been Mormon. Of course, a bit of time is spent with ad hominems against former LDS, instead of addressing what we are saying they go off on the grand Mormon pat time of character assassination. It’s all blah, blah, blah.

Of course, what I have noticed from this side of the fence is a lot of ad hominems against Latter-day Saints, as well as former Catholics, and proselytizing of Latter-day Saints (“come to Christ”, “give up the false beliefs”, “repent and be baptized”, etc etc), posts about the length of time it is taking for someone to respond, ridiculing of our beliefs, etc etc. And when a Catholic or someone not LDS points this out, they are denounced, invalidated, etc. Very interesting.

 

[LivingWaters7]

I am offended by that statement sir. I was a “Generations deep” Mormon. I know more about your “church” than I do anything else. In fact, I’m the only non-mormon in my family. And, having belonged to both the LDS and RLDS “churches” I have a real good grasp on the teachings of the so-called “Restored Christianity” I have read many books written by “prophets” and “apostles” of your “church”, in addition to the Bible,(Including Joseph’s Inspired Version) the Book of Mormon, The Doctrine and Covenants (Both LDS and RLDS), The Pearl of Great Price, the Lectures on Faith, and tons of Church History. My “credentials” as it were, came from 20+years in both LDS and RLDS. I know that you and your fellow Mormons on here are trying to “soft-sell” your faith. You and your comrades consistanly avoid the tough questions, most likely you either know we are right, or, that you have no real idea what the “Church” teaches.

I am not sure why you would be offended, since I clearly stated, as you quoted-“his doesn’t automatically mean that ex-[insert religion] are not knowledgeable or cannot share their experiences.” If you are not in the category that I am discussing, then I was not referring to you.

If you think we are “soft-sell[ing]” our faith, then…sure. Or maybe, it’s because we are actually interested in discussing our faith with those not of it, correcting mistakes made by non-Latter-day Saints in presenting our beliefs (as as been done in this very thread), and discussing other issues that we are interested in. But it couldn’t be that. We’re here to proselytize for our cult, of course. Frankly, I don’t even have the time to proselytize here, or anywhere online if I wanted to (I participate here very little), as a pharmacy student on clinical rotations and doing oncologic pharmacotherapeutic research) This accusation always amuses me.

No, we do not avoid “tough questions”. What I have noticed is that when we (and other non-Catholics for that matter) do not answer in the way that you (general you) want us to (since you (general you) know what we “really” believe), we have “dodged” or “avoided” or something of the sort. No, we do not “know” you’re right, and we actually know quite clearly what the Church of Jesus Christ teaches (should I be offended and cite my credentials?). I’ve read all the non-LDS sources, books, websites, articles, etc that talk about what Latter-day Saints “really” believe, and what our history “really” is, most prior to my conversion, when I was a critic of the LDS faith.

And thank you for the scare quotes around “church”, it was amusing.

 

[TexanKnight]

This is funny. Some of the less gospel savy people I know have been Bishops Elder’s Quorum leaders. If you could not find truth within the mormon church, then mormons really don’t have much to talk to you about. You are on two different pages. Many times when ex mormons speak, they are not pleasant to talke to because they are trample of things which are still sacred to those who believe. Please tell me you have not trampled on things we hold sacred.

lol…I LOVE this tactic. If someone shows credentials, then somehow minimize the credentials! Awesome! Of course, I am certain you have never told your Bishops and EQ Presidents that they were not Gospel Savvy. THis is even more humorous when you know that Mormons believe that God calls people to these positions. So, you are saying that the LDS god makes mistakes in calling people. Pretty awesome.

And if truth tramples on things you call sacred, then so be it. Truth will endure.

 

[Fatboys]

I am offended by that statement sir. I was a “Generations deep” Mormon. I know more about your “church” than I do anything else. In fact, I’m the only non-mormon in my family. And, having belonged to both the LDS and RLDS “churches” I have a real good grasp on the teachings of the so-called “Restored Christianity” I have read many books written by “prophets” and “apostles” of your “church”, in addition to the Bible,(Including Joseph’s Inspired Version) the Book of Mormon, The Doctrine and Covenants (Both LDS and RLDS), The Pearl of Great Price, the Lectures on Faith, and tons of Church History. My “credentials” as it were, came from 20+years in both LDS and RLDS. I know that you and your fellow Mormons on here are trying to “soft-sell” your faith. You and your comrades consistanly avoid the tough questions, most likely you either know we are right, or, that you have no real idea what the “Church” teaches.

You may have read them and feel you have a great amount of knowledge, but a person does not retain what they once held to be true. It is like a beautiful mountain lake, teaming with life. If the stream that feeds the lake becomes contaminated it posions the lake and it dies. If all you study about the LDS is the negative, the positive which was once part of you dies. You then rely on the negative for knowledge to express what you feel is truth. It does not work, and many times the true knowledge of what you had is gone. You become no greater or lesser than any other anti mormon. This does not just apply to ex mormons but to all who leave what religion they believed in. So your 20+ years in two churches is not impressive. Apparently after you left you were searching around for a church to believe in. Since your history is that of feeling you have found the truth, to only be disappointed, it would seem that you will soon leave the catholic church as well. +

 

[TexanKnight]

We weren’t talking about “automatic persecution card” or who is an ex-Latter-day Saint, and whether they know what they were taught and experienced, or the behavior of people on this very site, yet you deemed it okay to bring that up, correct? Clearly I referenced other sites to demonstrate that what you are attempting to argue as a negative is done by members of your own faith on forums where they are not, essentially, on their “home turf”.

Please demonstrate that my observation is a “non-sequitor” (sic). My point was that your posts that I was referencing are merely poisoning the well, and that the behavior that you decry is demonstrated by people of all faiths on forums where they are, essentially, on the defense, including Catholics on forums like CARM. It is a perfectly natural and logical response to those ex-[insert religion] that attempt to present themselves as experts, many times over actual members of [insert religion] (note that this is not referring to all ex-[insert any religion]).

Firstly, why would it matter if they went to an Evangelical church? This seems to be moving the goal posts, as well as setting down premises where a response can already be dismissed out of hand. It is not relevant to my argument what church or religion that ex-[insert religion] goes to. What is relevant, and what goes back to the argument you were making, is that there are many ex-Catholics, some even on this forum, that claim that they know what they are talking about, present their credentials (as if done by some ex-Latter-day Saints on this forum), and know what Catholics “really” do and believe, who are then told by the believing Catholics that they shouldn’t be told what they believe when they themselves are practicing and believing Catholics.

One example on this forum is “Atemi”, who is now banned. He/she posts quite frequently on CARM, and presents himself/herself as an ex-Catholic that “knows” what Catholics really believe, teach, and do, and is therefore, essentially, an “authority”. “Radical” is also another example (most likely of the “never-Catholic”). I also see this numerous times in the Orthodox threads (generally they are “never-Catholic”). Just take a look at any of the current Orthodox related threads on this forum, especially in regards to “original sin”. That should suffice (and I hope that we will not make this thread about individual posters).

Anyway, the point, as has already been made, is that just because someone is an ex-[insert religion] doesn’t automatically mean that they are an authority on their former religion, regardless of their credentials, as it seems to be your argument for some of the ex-Latter-day Saints on this forum. People are certainly welcome to share their experiences and beliefs, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that said experiences are the same as others, and NeuroTypical was certainly right to state that he should not be told what he believes by someone else, whether or not that person is an ex member of our Faith. The same goes for ex-Catholics telling Catholics what they believe and practice (as I’ve seen many times over at CARM and other forums, and at times on this one).

The point was offered…not really made

 

[batman1973]

Those weren’t scare quotes. I can’t in good conscience call your faith organization a church, or your leaders by their self appointed titles. The Latter Day Saint movement is not a church. It is a Cult. My point is, you shouldn’t dismiss the former LDS people on here. Most of us know when you guys are lying, or mis-representing a teaching. You can “say” (that is, type) whatever makes you feel better about yourself. But your so-called church leaders made many false prophecies, wrested the scriptures countless times, and worst, made the the Son of God to be weakling and a liar. This has been shown to you multiple times by many people. If you choose to ignore the truth, that is your right.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Of course, what I have noticed from this side of the fence is a lot of ad hominems against Latter-day Saints, as well as former Catholics, and proselytizing of Latter-day Saints (“come to Christ”, “give up the false beliefs”, “repent and be baptized”, etc etc), posts about the length of time it is taking for someone to respond, ridiculing of our beliefs, etc etc. And when a Catholic or someone not LDS points this out, they are denounced, invalidated, etc. Very interesting.

All are called to repent and be baptized, there isn’t anything special about Mormons in this regard.

 

[TexanKnight]

You may have read them and feel you have a great amount of knowledge, but a person does not retain what they once held to be true. It is like a beautiful mountain lake, teaming with life. If the stream that feeds the lake becomes contaminated it posions the lake and it dies. If all you study about the LDS is the negative, the positive which was once part of you dies. You then rely on the negative for knowledge to express what you feel is truth. It does not work, and many times the true knowledge of what you had is gone. You become no greater or lesser than any other anti mormon. This does not just apply to ex mormons but to all who leave what religion they believed in. So your 20+ years in two churches is not impressive. Apparently after you left you were searching around for a church to believe in. Since your history is that of feeling you have found the truth, to only be disappointed, it would seem that you will soon leave the catholic church as well. +

You make too many wrongful assumptions here.

First, I never read any anti-LDS stuff before OR after. What led me from the LDS Church were the old Doctrinal and History Books by LDS prophets and leaders.

Next, I still hold very dearly the good parts of the LDS Church. The fact it teaches false doctrine does not mean it has no value. My time as a missionary was the among the best years of my life. I LOVED being a missionary. I loved FHE. I loved the camaraderie in the LDS Church. I remember fondly going to the temple (I went to several).

No one can ever take away what I loved about being LDS. But none of that good will ever change the fact it teaches false doctrine.

 

[Fatboys]

lol…I LOVE this tactic. If someone shows credentials, then somehow minimize the credentials! Awesome! Of course, I am certain you have never told your Bishops and EQ Presidents that they were not Gospel Savvy. THis is even more humorous when you know that Mormons believe that God calls people to these positions. So, you are saying that the LDS god makes mistakes in calling people. Pretty awesome.

And if truth tramples on things you call sacred, then so be it. Truth will endure.

God calls men with what knowledge they have to do a job. It is no different that Joseph Smith being called as a prophet of God with little education. I have held many positions and had to learn what was involved to magnify that calling. A person has to study and be taught from those who have knowledge. But that does not mean they have all the knowledge there is to have about church functions, principles, or teachings. You were just a guy before you were called, and just a guy after you were released. You may have increased in knowledge, but I asure you that does not put you on a higher level than any other member of the church. And I knew this would be your response. God looks at the person to give them what they need to grow. Example, I was just released as primary chorister. I been in bishoprics, been Eldrer’s quorum councilor and president. I have taught for years Gospel principles, and Gospel doctrine, nursery. I love the church and what it teaches me. I know of bishops who had little knowledge of the gospel, and the same with elders quorums presidents. I have seen councilors who have been called and served honorable, but to fall into inactivity. I have seen others who have continued to grow and become a stake president which happened to one of my councilors when I was EQ pres. And he was my home teacher who showed up twice in a year and a half, which I bring up when he talks to me about the times I miss. We are far from perfect my friend, but that does not mean that God does not make use to the best of our abilities to help build his kingdom. We send out thousands of missionaries every year who are sucessful in bring many to the church, not because of their great knowledge, but by the spirit. My great grand uncle J Golden Kimball once stated, “The church has to be true, or the missionaries would have killed it out long ago.”

 

[RebeccaJ]

I left Mormonism long before the Internet existed. It was self evident to me that it was full of holes, lacking in truth. I believed for most of my life that all of Christianity was as full of holes as Mormonism. I wanted nothing to do with any of it.

I will never understand why Mormons stay Mormon, it so obvious a ruse that I am embarrassed for you.

 

[Fatboys]

I left Mormonism long before the Internet existed. It was self evident to me that it was full of holes, lacking in truth. I believed for most of my life that all of Christianity was as full of holes as Mormonism. I wanted nothing to do with any of it.

I will never understand why Mormons stay Mormon, it so obvious a ruse that I am embarrassed for you.

Rebecca how old were you when you left?

 

[Fatboys]

You make too many wrongful assumptions here.

First, I never read any anti-LDS stuff before OR after. What led me from the LDS Church were the old Doctrinal and History Books by LDS prophets and leaders.

Next, I still hold very dearly the good parts of the LDS Church. The fact it teaches false doctrine does not mean it has no value. My time as a missionary was the among the best years of my life. I LOVED being a missionary. I loved FHE. I loved the camaraderie in the LDS Church. I remember fondly going to the temple (I went to several).

No one can ever take away what I loved about being LDS. But none of that good will ever change the fact it teaches false doctrine.

So what was it that you felt was false teachings?