Yikes! Where to begin with this statement?But God chose to exclude all from the priesthood, with the exception of a few from a particular linage–regardless of who believe they are the chosen, or who is worthy.
That is exclusivism–and may be manifested in a number of different ways. In fact–that exclusivism extended far beyond blacks in both the NT and the OT–and is still in effect, as to lineage.
—Im sorry, but what in the h**l does that verse have to do with a church making you pay to enter heaven?
Originally Posted by dberrie2000 —Please explain for us how the LDS church goes about “making you pay”?
I was not referring to any verse–but what you posted above —embolden in red.Well please explain how the verse has anything to do with what I said.
And what has that to do with the fact that you have been asked to support your statement of how the LDS church goes about making people “pay” in order to enter heaven?Listen, you act as if no one here was ever mormon. There are alot of us that were at one time.
The question was mine–not yours. And you have not answered it–what evidence do you have to support your claim that the LDS church is “making you pay to enter heaven”? By what means? How? By what agent?So start answering the questions asked. Oh you cant without making yourself look like a (insert word). This tactic of yours may work with folks that dont know about this religion but we here do. And your tactic is twisting words and not answering questions because they either suite your needs or you know you dont have an answer for it.
dberrie, would you answer the post please?2 Nephi 5:21 still says:
AlsoCode:"And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, and they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were **white**, and exceedingly fair and **delightsome**, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them."
3 Nephi 2:12-15 continues to teach that dark-skinned Lamanites who converted unto the Lord had their **curse “taken from them, and their skin became white **like unto the Nephites.”
dberrie2000.
How do you explain this?
No. I stick with what is written in the Bible,or a common source of truth. That is a source of truth for all parties.dberrie, would you answer the post please?
Originally Posted by dberrie2000 —But God chose to exclude all from the priesthood, with the exception of a few from a particular linage–regardless of who believe they are the chosen, or who is worthy.
That is exclusivism–and may be manifested in a number of different ways. In fact–that exclusivism extended far beyond blacks in both the NT and the OT–and is still in effect, as to lineage.
Was this from a source of the true church?Yikes! Where to begin with this statement?
I believe I brought this up in post #506. Which you still haven’t commented on?
“and is still in effect, as to lineage.” - What does this mean? There is absolutely no modern exclusion based on lineage. Well at least not in the TRUE church, can’t speak for your church but it would not shock me based on 90% of your church’s history.
They have 15 million baptised people who they know or assume to be alive (they count those who don’t keep in contact until their 110th birthday!!). It is perfectly clear from comparison of LDS figures for specific countries and the number stating that they are LDS members in censues that the LDS is overstating membership dramatically - in some countries the overstating of members is in the order of 400%.How could a church with nearly 15 million members, be a cult?
I would like to examine that evidence–please post your site for this information.They have 15 million baptised people who they know or assume to be alive (they count those who don’t keep in contact until their 110th birthday!!). It is perfectly clear from comparison of LDS figures for specific countries and the number stating that they are LDS members in censues that the LDS is overstating membership dramatically - in some countries the overstating of members is in the order of 400%.
Some former missionaries admit to inviting children and young people in third world countries to ‘swimming lessons’ and then baptising them without their knowledge or consent. These are counted as members!
Just go to the LDS site and note the figure for a country e.g. Mexico and then go to the Mexico census figures and look at religious affiliation. In the UK, the LDS overstate by around 100% but in Central and South American countries, the overstatements are much more extreme.I would like to examine that evidence–please post your site for this information.
You’ve got to be kidding me that this distortion of such a beautiful passage is your rebuttal??? I mean try to put some context to these passages. Like reading the 2 verses before:Was this from a source of the true church?
Galatians 3:26-29—King James Version (KJV)
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ’s, **then are ye Abraham’s seed, **and heirs according to the promise.
Originally Posted by StevieD —They have 15 million baptised people who they know or assume to be alive (they count those who don’t keep in contact until their 110th birthday!!). It is perfectly clear from comparison of LDS figures for specific countries and the number stating that they are LDS members in censues that the LDS is overstating membership dramatically - in some countries the overstating of members is in the order of 400%.
Some former missionaries admit to inviting children and young people in third world countries to ‘swimming lessons’ and then baptising them without their knowledge or consent.** These are counted as members!**
Originally Posted by dberrie2000 —I would like to examine that evidence–please post your site for this information.
Taking somebody-said-that-somebody-said information and posting it as facts is something short of reliable information, IMO.Just go to the LDS site and note the figure for a country e.g. Mexico and then go to the Mexico census figures and look at religious affiliation. In the UK, the LDS overstate by around 100% but in Central and South American countries, the overstatements are much more extreme.
I have read the fake baptism stories on several different ex-Mormon forums and blogs and I believe it because the poor guys are pressured heavily and judged purely on numbers.
Originally Posted by RocketRM
Yikes! Where to begin with this statement?
I believe I brought this up in post #506. Which you still haven’t commented on?
“and is still in effect, as to lineage.” - What does this mean? There is absolutely no modern exclusion based on lineage. Well at least not in the TRUE church, can’t speak for your church but it would not shock me based on 90% of your church’s history.
Originally Posted by dberrie2000 --Was this from a source of the true church?
Galatians 3:26-29—King James Version (KJV)
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ’s,** then are ye Abraham’s seed,** and heirs according to the promise.
What do you believe is distorted about Galatians3:29?You’ve got to be kidding me that this distortion of such a beautiful passage is your rebuttal???
I mean try to put some context to these passages. Like reading the 2 verses before:
**
Galatians 3:26-27—New American Bible**
26 For through faith you are all children of God in Christ Jesus.
And how do you believe that Galatians3:26-27 somehow makes void, cancels, rubs out, or deletes what Galatians3:29 states–that all those who are Christ’s–are Abraham’s seed?27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
Since I don’t want you to try to side-step this debate with a counter-arguement regarding differing versions of the Bible. Here is your King James Version:
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Or that they are of a particular lineage–Abraham’s.These FOUR verses (Galatians 3:26-29) prove that God recognizes no differences between man when they accept Jesus.
Which is a change in God’s economy–only those of the literal lineage were considered as such for thousands of years–and considered the chosen of God–to the exclusion of all else.Rather it binds them to the whole history of God’s revealed word through all the prophets starting with Abraham.
What are you afraid of?No. I stick with what is written in the Bible,or a common source of truth. That is a source of truth for all parties.
People can rationalize thier souls away.The TRUE God did not then say in the 1840s “I know I said 2000 years ago that you are all equal if you accept my Son, but now because prejudice is so well established I’m going to side with man and restrict Blacks from being part of my holy lineage”
Only a con such as the BoM and it’s vile racist pseudo-prophets would create such an doctrine… what’s sad is that honest members (i.e. those who cannot break away from the lie because they truly believe it) try to defend this gross insult to the True Word and the True God.
God Bless.
I believe that truth is found in the Biblical source, and that most all Christians accept it as such. Why not use that?What are you afraid of?
With respect, you are still side-stepping the original issue dberrie.What do you believe is distorted about Galatians3:29?
Now–the difference of the eventual Biblical NT changes involved just who could be seed of Abraham–but not that they must be of that particular lineage.
Deflection.I believe that truth is found in the Biblical source, and that most all Christians accept it as such. Why not use that?
No one can answer that question, that I know of. You will have to read up on the history of that–and it still will not reveal much.With respect, you are still side-stepping the original issue dberrie.
Why would your god say in 1840 that Blacks are not of Abraham’s seed (and thus cannot fully participate in all LDS activities and ordinances) and now after intense social and financial pressure on the LDS church in 1978 come back and say “Whoops! My bad, Blacks are now acceptable?”
God Bless!
Thanks–I have fun with this, and I hope you do also. Mery Christmas to you!PS - I must say that I do appreciate you responding to these questions dberrie and please do not take anything I say personally, I am truly interested, as I first mentioned, in an LDS view of this matter.
So you are not going to answer the question?Thanks–I have fun with this, and I hope you do also. Mery Christmas to you!
I don’t have any answers for them. Anymore than I have any answers why God only chose a certain lineage to apply His priesthood to in the Bible. And then changed it to include all of the House of Israel. And then changed it again to include the Gentiles.Deflection.These are YOUR Scriptures.Why don’t you answer the question?What are you afraid of?
…and a very safe and happy Christmas season to you and yours!No one can answer that question, that I know of. You will have to read up on the history of that–and it still will not reveal much.
Anymore than we can figure out why God changed His commands that the priesthood be allowed to only a particular linage within the House of Israel. And that only WITHIN the House of Israel–and then to all of the House of Israel.
Can you explain why? I can’t.
And then another change–to include the Gentiles into the House of Israel.
Why? Have you any explanations for that? I don’t. Why didn’t God just include them from the start? Why the exclusivism?
For me–I don’t know why–but I believe God has His reasons–and that is good enough for me.
Thanks–I have fun with this, and I hope you do also. Mery Christmas to you!