How is the LDS a cult?

[twopekinguys]

Just go to the LDS site and note the figure for a country e.g. Mexico and then go to the Mexico census figures and look at religious affiliation. In the UK, the LDS overstate by around 100% but in Central and South American countries, the overstatements are much more extreme.
I have read the fake baptism stories on several different ex-Mormon forums and blogs and I believe it because the poor guys are pressured heavily and judged purely on numbers.

Wasn’t it in Brazil that the lds overstated membership by 1 million?

 

[twopekinguys]

I don’t have any answers for them. Anymore than I have any answers why God only chose a certain lineage to apply His priesthood to in the Bible. And then changed it to include all of the House of Israel. And then changed it again to include the Gentiles.

Do you have any answers why? I don’t. But the Bible reveals those truths–and are your scriptures also.

Perhaps you can help me out–why did God only choose a few–then change that to more–and then change that again? The Bible bears that out–could anyone answer why?

Why not start a new thread on it, and quit derailing this one?

 

[dberrie2000]

…and a very safe and happy Christmas season to you and yours!

I’ll certainly agree with you that we cannot understand God’s will.

But I believe I answered this response in at previous post. I think we can agree (I hope we can) that God revealed himself to Paul and Paul’s ministry to the Gentiles was a divinely sanctioned ministry. This Ministry eventually spread far and wide to the various lands under Roman control.

I believe we could agree here.

The key here is that in God’s early Church (based on the growth from the Gentile ministry) would have included persons of non-Caucasian decent and some of these persons became part of His sacred priesthood (i.e. those of North Africa) since we know of no racial exclusion in the early Church. Roman North Africa at this time was pretty cosmopolitan including many from Southern areas like Ethiopia).

The fact is–the early church practiced exclusivism–which did not even include the Gentiles. There was a change of that practice of exclusivism in what is thought of to be about 20 years after the ascension of Christ. The Jews reached out and included the Gentiles. Just who, and what their descent was–I do not know.

Now I cannot with absolute clarity state what was the races of the Priests of the Early Church in North Africa (race in the modern sense of the word) but I would take as a very strong inference that they were not all Caucasian (again in the modern sense of the word).

That’s a possibility.

What your church preached and believed between the 1840s and 1978 is god-revealed exclusion based on a very define and modern racial formula (black and white). Since this would likely exclude some (to many) priests of the early Church, and since the early Church is a period that we both as Catholics and LDS can agree to, is that not a contradiction of God’s revelation over the past 2000 years?

I don’t know. Possible. Was it a contradiction for the NT Jews to deny the Gentiles the gospel–when it was known that God died for all? Surely, Jesus was with His disciples for 40 days following His resurrection—why didn’t He reveal to them that the gospel was to be taken to the Gentiles–if that was His will? Why did the Apostles of Jesus Christ continue to deny the gospel of Christ to the Gentiles for 20 years? For me–strange–real strange.

My Bishop is black–and I believe him to be called of God–and that blacks have always been as good a people as whites, in my experience–and are my equals. Why God would exclude them or any other people–only He knows. But for sure–there is a Biblical history of that, extending for thousands of years–it cannot be located or penned in one small timeframe.

I believe one thing is for sure–racial discrimination in Churches has been practiced repeatedly and throughout history, and the LDS are no exception. Any attempt at pointing fingers is the pot calling the kettle black,and a little hypocritical, IMO.

 

[Stephen168]

Why God would exclude them or any other people–only He knows.

Christ never did. Racism has never been a part of Christianity.

 

[ofgodsandmen]

ofgodsandmen;10158434:

thank you

You are welcome, and that goes for the rest of your posts. At the time I had read just the beginning of this thread. Thanks for defending the faith with reason and passion; exellent Catholic Apologetics work. You converts often make the best Catholics. I hope you do one day pursue the Diaconate. :knight1:

 

[Stephen168]

The question was mine–not yours. And you have not answered it–what evidence do you have to support your claim that the LDS church is “making you pay to enter heaven”? By what means? How? By what agent?

Post #477 says:
-Heaven requires a temple recommend.
-A Temple recommend requires paying tithing.
-Tithing is money collected by the Mormon Church.
-Therefore; you have to pay money to get to heaven.

 

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 —Why God would exclude them or any other people–only He knows.

Christ never did.

Then how can you explain that Christ set up a priesthood in the OT that excluded any and all peoples with the exception of those of a particular tribal lineage?

That the OT House of Israel only included those of a particular lineage?

That the early NT siants excluded the Gentiles in taking them the gospel of Christ?

Are you saying that was not the will of Christ?

 

[StevieD]

Taking somebody-said-that-somebody-said information and posting it as facts is something short of reliable information, IMO.

With regard to the 110 year old members, do your research, this was reported by a worker at SLC HQ. I believe him.

Anything to say about the census numbers? Thought not - easily checked and an indication of LDS dishonesty generally.

 

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000
The question was mine–not yours. And you have not answered it–what evidence do you have to support your claim that the LDS church is “making you pay to enter heaven”? By what means? How? By what agent?

Post #477 says:
-Heaven requires a temple recommend.
-A Temple recommend requires paying tithing.
-Tithing is money collected by the Mormon Church.
-Therefore; you have to pay money to get to heaven.

That is likened to me saying:

-Heaven requires the forgivness of sins
-the forgiveness of sins requires that we repent and be baptized
-repentance and water baptism was commanded by the NT church
-therefore–the NT church makes you be baptized.

 

[StevieD]

That is likened to me saying:

-Heaven requires the forgivness of sins
-the forgiveness of sins requires that we repent and be baptized
-repentance and water baptism was commanded by the NT church
-therefore–the NT church makes you be baptized.

Hardly the same thing at all. No-one insists that we pay 10% of our income to build malls in order to get into heaven. If they are money oriented, they are a cult.

 

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by StevieD —They have 15 million baptised people who they know or assume to be alive (they count those who don’t keep in contact until their 110th birthday!!). It is perfectly clear from comparison of LDS figures for specific countries and the number stating that they are LDS members in censues that the LDS is overstating membership dramatically - in some countries the overstating of members is in the order of 400%.
Some former missionaries admit to inviting children and young people in third world countries to ‘swimming lessons’ and then baptising them without their knowledge or consent. These are counted as members!

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 —I would like to examine that evidence–please post your site for this information.

Originally Posted by StevieD Just go to the LDS site and note the figure for a country e.g. Mexico and then go to the Mexico census figures and look at religious affiliation. In the UK, the LDS overstate by around 100% but in Central and South American countries, the overstatements are much more extreme.
I have read the fake baptism stories on several different ex-Mormon forums and blogs and I believe it because the poor guys are pressured heavily and judged purely on numbers.

dberrie—Taking somebody-said-that-somebody-said information and posting it as facts is something short of reliable information, IMO.

With regard to the 110 year old members, do your research, this was reported by a worker at SLC HQ. I believe him.

Your reporting the highlighted in red stats as facts was questioned–you reported that you got that from youtube.

Again–somebody-said-that somebody-said is not necessarily what I would refer to as facts. And anybody that posts them as such, I would not rely on for the acquisition of facts, and 110 year old members cannot change that.

 

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 —The question was mine–not yours. And you have not answered it–what evidence do you have to support your claim that the LDS church is “making you pay to enter heaven”? By what means? How? By what agent?

Originally Posted by Stephen168
Post #477 says:
-Heaven requires a temple recommend.
-A Temple recommend requires paying tithing.
-Tithing is money collected by the Mormon Church.
-Therefore; you have to pay money to get to heaven.

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 --That is likened to me saying:

-Heaven requires the forgivness of sins
-the forgiveness of sins requires that we repent and be baptized
-repentance and water baptism was commanded by the NT church
-therefore–the NT church makes you be baptized.

Hardly the same thing at all.

Yes it is, for me. If a command to do something for heaven means that one is made to do it–then one example is as good as the other.

every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[Stephen168]

Then how can you explain that Christ set up a priesthood in the OT that excluded any and all peoples with the exception of those of a particular tribal lineage?

That the OT House of Israel only included those of a particular lineage?

That the early NT siants excluded the Gentiles in taking them the gospel of Christ?

Are you saying that was not the will of Christ?

The Priesthood of Christianity NEVER excluded people because of their race; that is the will of Christ.

 

[Stephen168]

That is likened to me saying:

-Heaven requires the forgivness of sins
-the forgiveness of sins requires that we repent and be baptized
-repentance and water baptism was commanded by the NT church
-therefore–the NT church makes you be baptized.

I just explained how it is that the Mormon Church requires people to pay money to get into heaven. You didn’t not disagree with my facts. You did equate money with baptism. Do Mormons require payment for baptism, too?

Paying money to get into heaven is not the will of Christ.

 

[Prague]

Google levites and the golden calf! They were the only tribe that did not worship the golden calf. Made the levites pretty special. Look it up.

 

[kimg901]

I was not referring to any verse–but what you posted above —embolden in red.

And what has that to do with the fact that you have been asked to support your statement of how the LDS church goes about making people “pay” in order to enter heaven?

The question was mine–not yours. And you have not answered it–what evidence do you have to support your claim that the LDS church is “making you pay to enter heaven”? By what means? How? By what agent?

By the means of my own eyes and ears witnessing such a thing being said. This is from current mormons too that said the lds members are “required to tithe 10%” and if they dont they cannot enter their temples. So are you really that naive or are you that brainwashed that you dont see it? So back to the original topic, are the lds a cult? It sure seems that way. You dont see the catholics or other christians charging addmission do you?

 

[TexanKnight]

But God chose to exclude all from the priesthood, with the exception of a few from a particular linage–regardless of who believe they are the chosen, or who is worthy.

That is exclusivism–and may be manifested in a number of different ways. In fact–that exclusivism extended far beyond blacks in both the NT and the OT–and is still in effect, as to lineage.

One point here–the Bible has God practicing exclusivism throughout the Bible–regardless of what you can post about what LDS leaders have stated.

That seems to be the general practice of some–to run and kick Joseph Smith, Brigham Yound, Pratt, etc. between the legs when they wind up in a tight to produce something that will support their arguments.

First–one needs to examine what they feel is the standard of truth–the Bible. You can’t justify the exclusivism in the Biblical OT nor NT by resorting to an attack on Smith or Young.

The Bible testifies against your argument–regardless of who you believe said what in the LDS church.

Wrong. You are, in a typically silly LDS tactic, trying to compare the culture of 3000 years ago in a different continent with 1830s America. Your church, with the god who was once a sinful man, was racist. When I have a chance, I will post thehorrible things your alleged prophets said about blacks unless another of my warriors can do it for me. We will see if they sound god-like

 

[batman1973]

Wrong. You are, in a typically silly LDS tactic, trying to compare the culture of 3000 years ago in a different continent with 1830s America. Your church, with the god who was once a sinful man, was racist. When I have a chance, I will post thehorrible things your alleged prophets said about blacks unless another of my warriors can do it for me. We will see if they sound god-like

"…Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.” – JoD: vol.10 p. 110: (March 8, 1863)

There is a reason why one man is BORN BLACK and with other DISADVANTAGES while another is BORN WHITE with great ADVANTAGES.
The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient, more or less, to the laws that were given us there.
Those who were faithful in all things there received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less."
Mormon President and Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, “Doctrines of Salvation”, pp. 61.

“There were no neutrals in the war in heaven.
All took sides either with Christ or with Satan.
Every man had his agency there, and men receive rewards here based upon their actions there, just as they will receive rewards hereafter for deeds done in the body.
The Negro, evidently, is RECEIVING THE REWARD HE MERITS.”
Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, “Doctrines of Salvation”, pp. 65-66

“Though he was rebel and an ASSOCIATE OF LUCIFER in pre-existence, and though he was a liar from the beginning whose name was Perdition, Cain was cursed with a dark skin; he became the father of the Negroes, and those spirits who are not worthy to receive the priesthood are born though his lineage.
[Cain] became the first mortal to be cursed as a son of perdition.
As a result of his mortal birth he is assured of a tangible body of flesh and bones in eternity, a fact which will enable him to rule over Satan.”
Mormon Doctrine, pp. 102.

“For instance, the descendants of Cain cannot cast off their skin of blackness, at once, and immediately, although every soul of them should repent,…
Cain and his posterity must wear the mark which God put upon them; and his white friends may wash the race of Cain with fuller’s soap every day, they cannot wash away God’s mark;…”
Mormon Publication: Millennial Star, Vol. 14, pg. 418.

“That the negro is markedly inferior to the Caucasian is proved both craniologically and by six thousand years of planet-wide experimentation.”
B.H. Roberts-the Seventy’s Course in Theology

“God has commanded Israel not to intermarry.
To go against this commandment of God would be in sin.
Those who willfully sin with their eyes open to this wrong will not be surprised to find that they will be separated from the presence of God in the world to come.
This is spiritual death…
The reason that one would lose his blessings by marrying a Negro is due to the restriction placed upon them.
‘No person having the least particle of Negro blood can hold the Priesthood.’
(Peterson is quoting 2nd prophet Brigham Young here.)
It does not matter if they are one-sixth Negro or one-hundred and sixth, the curse of no Priesthood is the same.
If an individual who is entitled to the Priesthood marries a Negro, the Lord has decreed that only spirits who are not eligible for the Priesthood will come to that marriage as children.
To intermarry with a Negro is to forfeit a ‘Nation of Priesthood holders.’” Race Problems – As They Affect The Church, Address by APOSTLE Mark E. Petersen at the Convention of Teachers of Religion on the College Level, Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah, August 27, 1954.

Nuff Said. This is why the Mormon Church will never be the Church of Jesus Christ

 

[TexanKnight]

"…Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.” – JoD: vol.10 p. 110: (March 8, 1863)

There is a reason why one man is BORN BLACK and with other DISADVANTAGES while another is BORN WHITE with great ADVANTAGES.
The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient, more or less, to the laws that were given us there.
Those who were faithful in all things there received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less."
Mormon President and Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, “Doctrines of Salvation”, pp. 61.

“There were no neutrals in the war in heaven.
All took sides either with Christ or with Satan.
Every man had his agency there, and men receive rewards here based upon their actions there, just as they will receive rewards hereafter for deeds done in the body.
The Negro, evidently, is RECEIVING THE REWARD HE MERITS.”
Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, “Doctrines of Salvation”, pp. 65-66

“Though he was rebel and an ASSOCIATE OF LUCIFER in pre-existence, and though he was a liar from the beginning whose name was Perdition, Cain was cursed with a dark skin; he became the father of the Negroes, and those spirits who are not worthy to receive the priesthood are born though his lineage.
[Cain] became the first mortal to be cursed as a son of perdition.
As a result of his mortal birth he is assured of a tangible body of flesh and bones in eternity, a fact which will enable him to rule over Satan.”
Mormon Doctrine, pp. 102.

“For instance, the descendants of Cain cannot cast off their skin of blackness, at once, and immediately, although every soul of them should repent,…
Cain and his posterity must wear the mark which God put upon them; and his white friends may wash the race of Cain with fuller’s soap every day, they cannot wash away God’s mark;…”
Mormon Publication: Millennial Star, Vol. 14, pg. 418.

“That the negro is markedly inferior to the Caucasian is proved both craniologically and by six thousand years of planet-wide experimentation.”
B.H. Roberts-the Seventy’s Course in Theology

“God has commanded Israel not to intermarry.
To go against this commandment of God would be in sin.
Those who willfully sin with their eyes open to this wrong will not be surprised to find that they will be separated from the presence of God in the world to come.
This is spiritual death…
The reason that one would lose his blessings by marrying a Negro is due to the restriction placed upon them.
‘No person having the least particle of Negro blood can hold the Priesthood.’
(Peterson is quoting 2nd prophet Brigham Young here.)
It does not matter if they are one-sixth Negro or one-hundred and sixth, the curse of no Priesthood is the same.
If an individual who is entitled to the Priesthood marries a Negro, the Lord has decreed that only spirits who are not eligible for the Priesthood will come to that marriage as children.
To intermarry with a Negro is to forfeit a ‘Nation of Priesthood holders.’” Race Problems – As They Affect The Church, Address by APOSTLE Mark E. Petersen at the Convention of Teachers of Religion on the College Level, Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah, August 27, 1954.

Nuff Said. This is why the Mormon Church will never be the Church of Jesus Christ

Thank you. I am traveling and not near my sources. You have proven my point. Waiting for our apologists to tap dance around this one.

 

[kimg901]

“Now WE ARE GENEROUS WITH THE NEGRO. WE ARE WILLING that the Negro have the highest kind of education. I WOULD BE WILLING to LET every Negro DRIVE A CADILLAC IF THEY COULD AFFORD IT. I WOULD BE WILLING that they have all the advantages they can get out of life in the world. BUT LET THEM ENJOY THESE THINGS AMONG THEMSELVES.” LDS Apostle Mark E. Petersen, “Race Problems – As They Affect The Church,” Address delivered at Brigham Young University, August 27, 1954, as quoted in Jerald and Sandra Tanner’s book entitled, “The Changing World of Mormonism,” p. 307, emphasis added.

“Those who were LESS VALIANT IN PRE-EXISTENCE and who thereby had certain spiritual restrictions imposed upon them during mortality are known to us as the NEGROES.” LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 527, 1966 edition, emphasis added.

“THE NEGROES ARE NOT EQUAL WITH OTHER RACES where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned, …but this inequality is not of man’s origin. IT IS THE LORD’S DOING, is based on his eternal laws of justice, and grows out of the LACK OF SPIRITUAL VALIANCE OF THOSE CONCERNED IN THEIR FIRST ESTATE [the Mormon pre-existence].” LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 527 – 528, 1966 edition, emphasis added.

“We’ve always counseled in the Church for our Mexican members to marry Mexicans, our Japanese members to marry Japanese, our Caucasians to marry Caucasians, our Polynesian members to marry Polynesians. The counsel has been wise. You may say again, “Well, I know of exceptions.” I do, too, and they’ve been very successful marriages. I know some of them. You might even say, “I can show you local Church leaders or perhaps even general leaders who have married out of their race.” I say, “Yes–exceptions.” Then I would remind you of that Relief Society woman’s near-scriptural statement, “We’d like to follow the rule first, and then we’ll take care of the exceptions.” LDS Apostle Boyd K. Packer, from the talk “Follow the Rule” given at Brigham Young University, 1/14/77.

“I will remark with regard to slavery, inasmuch as we believe in the Bible, inasmuch as we believe in the ordinances of God, in the priesthood and order and decrees of God, we must believe in slavery. This colored race have been subjected to severe curses, which they have in their families and their classes and in their various capacities brought upon themselves…

“I am a firm believer in slavery…Those servants want to come here with their masters…and they commence to whisper round their views upon the subject, saying ‘Do you think it’s right? I am afraid it is not right’. I know it is right, and there should be a law made to have the slaves serve their master, because they are not capable of ruling themselves…I am firm in the belief that they ought to dwell in servitude…

“When a master has a negro, and uses him well, he is much better off than when he is free. As for masters knocking them down and whipping them and breaking the limbs of their servants, I have as little opinion of that as any person can have, but good wholesome servitude, I know there is nothing better than that.”

(Speech by Brigham Young delivered in joint session of the legislature, Friday, Jan. 23rd, 1852, recorded by Geo. D. Watt, Brigham Young Papers, Historical Dept. of the Church).

“If there never was a prophet or apostle of Jesus Christ spoke it before, I tell you, this people that are commonly called negroes are the children of old Cain. I know they are.”

“Again to the subject before us: as to the negro men bearing rule, not one of the children of old Cain have one particle of right to bear rule in government affairs from first to last. They have no business there. This privilege was taken from them by their own transgressions, and I cannot help it.

“I am as much opposed to the principle of slavery as any man in the present acceptation or usage of the term – it is abused. I am opposed to abusing that which God has decreed, to take a blessing, and make a curse of it. It is a great blessing to the seed of Adam to have the seed of Cain for servants…”

“Therefore, I will not consent for one moment to have an African dictate (to) me or my brethren with regard to church or state government…No, it is not right. But say some, is there anything of this kind in the constitution the United States has given us? If you will allow me the privilege of telling it right out, it is none of their damned business what we do or say here. What we do, it is for them to sanction, and then for us to say what we like about it. It is written right in the constitution ‘that every free white male inhabitant above the age of 21 years’, and etc…I have given you the true principle and doctrine.

“What the Gentiles are doing, we are consenting to do [he’s referring to the “evil” abolitionist effort going on in the USA at the time]. What we are trying to do today is to make the Negro equal with us in all our privileges. My voice shall be against it all the day long. I shall not consent for one moment.”

(Speech in joint session, Feb. 5, 1852, Brigham Young Papers, Historical Dept. of the Church)