How is the rapture viewed

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I am curious how the rapture and the book of revelation is viewed by Catholics? I aloways thought that the book of revelation was pretty self explanitory and dont understand how anyone can read it any diffrent. I may be wrong, but doesnt it clear state that the rapture, 7 year tribulation, second coming is going to happen?

I found someone who asked this question on Y/A. It wasnt me, I always come here. This is how the question was answered (in bold)

The rapture teaching, which is a misinterpretation of teachings about Christ’s Second Coming, imagines that Jesus will spirit Christians away before a time of persecution and tribulation. In other words, the rapture doctrine claims that Jesus doesn’t actually want us to take up the cross because he doesn’t want us to suffer with him. That’s false teaching.

So I suppose I am curious what is the Roman Catholics view/interpretation of the book of revelation, and if they don’t “believe” in it, why have it in the catholic bible?

Is it ok for a Catholic to believe in the second coming, rapture etc?
 
MikaAkim said:
I am curious how the rapture and the book of revelation is viewed by Catholics? I aloways thought that the book of revelation was pretty self explanitory and dont understand how anyone can read it any diffrent. I may be wrong, but doesnt it clear state that the rapture, 7 year tribulation, second coming is going to happen?

I found someone who asked this question on Y/A. It wasnt me, I always come here. This is how the question was answered (in bold)

The rapture teaching, which is a misinterpretation of teachings about Christ’s Second Coming, imagines that Jesus will spirit Christians away before a time of persecution and tribulation. In other words, the rapture doctrine claims that Jesus doesn’t actually want us to take up the cross because he doesn’t want us to suffer with him. That’s false teaching.

So I suppose I am curious what is the Roman Catholics view/interpretation of the book of revelation, and if they don’t “believe” in it, why have it in the catholic bible?

Is it ok for a Catholic to believe in the second coming, rapture etc?
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Mika, Catholics very much believe that the Lord will come again. This is the Creed we affirm at Sunday Mass:

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God,
begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven:
[bow during the next two lines:]
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered, died, and was buried.
On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
**He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.**We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

We just don’t accept the erroneous interpretation (which is a new interpretation) of Sacred Scripture proposed by the recent crop of writers on “the rapture”. These articles explain well the correct perspective:

catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0011fea2.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0109fea3.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0209fea5.asp
 
MikaAkim said:
I am curious how the rapture and the book of revelation is viewed by Catholics? I aloways thought that the book of revelation was pretty self explanitory and dont understand how anyone can read it any diffrent. I may be wrong, but doesnt it clear state that the rapture, 7 year tribulation, second coming is going to happen?

I found someone who asked this question on Y/A. It wasnt me, I always come here. This is how the question was answered (in bold)

The rapture teaching, which is a misinterpretation of teachings about Christ’s Second Coming, imagines that Jesus will spirit Christians away before a time of persecution and tribulation. In other words, the rapture doctrine claims that Jesus doesn’t actually want us to take up the cross because he doesn’t want us to suffer with him. That’s false teaching.

So I suppose I am curious what is the Roman Catholics view/interpretation of the book of revelation, and if they don’t “believe” in it, why have it in the catholic bible?

Is it ok for a Catholic to believe in the second coming, rapture etc?
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In fact, as a 65 yr-old lifelong Catholic, I’ve never heard a Catholic use the term “rapture.”
 
Catholics believe in all the books of the Bible. We believe in the one and only second coming of Christ, we believe that “who are alive, who are left” (1 Th 4-16) will be caught up with Him at the end. We believe what the Apostles and Jesus taught about the end times. In our view, scripture has been grossly misinterpreted by a relatively small group of Christians who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. There is positively nothing in the Bible that says there are two second comings of Christ-- one where He comes to collect the true believers (ie. rapture) and one at the end of time. This view never existed prior to the 1800s. That alone should be a warning sign.

I recommend Carl Olson’s book, “Will Catholics be Left Behind” for more information. Here is an article by Jimmy Akin on the subject.
 
My source of confusion on the rapture is based on the Gospel verses (I don’t remember where it is) where Jesus talks about two men in the field, one will be taken, and one will be left. Two women at the grindstone, one will be taken one will be left. That certainly sounds like what many people call the rapture. So since we as Catholics do not believe in the rapture, can anyone explain what those verses mean?
 
Prayer_Warrior said:
Catholics believe in all the books of the Bible. We believe in the one and only second coming of Christ, we believe that “who are alive, who are left” (1 Th 4-16) will be caught up with Him at the end. We believe what the Apostles and Jesus taught about the end times. In our view, scripture has been grossly misinterpreted by a relatively small group of Christians who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. There is positively nothing in the Bible that says there are two second comings of Christ-- one where He comes to collect the true believers (ie. rapture) and one at the end of time. This view never existed prior to the 1800s. That alone should be a warning sign.

I recommend Carl Olson’s book, “Will Catholics be Left Behind” for more information. Here is an article by Jimmy Akin on the subject.
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I have read up on this subject quite a bit over the last couple of years. I think you are absolutely right. I am, however, amazed at often this pre-trib interpretation or misinterpretation is put out there by Catholics and the media as if it’s undeniable truth. It’s frankly disconcerting. I don’t want to be uncharitable to the OP or to any protestants that may view this post. But, I fear that they are being horribly mislead and the implications may be grave.
 
I don’t think the rapture is found in Revelation. The source I have always been directed to is 2 Thes 2:16-17 (15-16 in the DR). Notice what verse 16 says - “Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air, and so shall we be always with the Lord.” (DR). I used to believe in the pre-trib rapture, but I started looking closer at what Paul wrote, and I noticed that this will take place “at the last trump” (not worded like this in all translations, but still something to consider). Revelation does show that there will be 7 seal judgments, followed by 7 trumpet judgements. Unless there is another trumpet blast after these judgements, it seems to me that the last trumpet would be the signal for the rapture.

I agree that the idea of a pre-trib rapture is a dangerous thing. Christians will go through at least the seal and trumpet judgements, and if someone thinks the rapture will occur before the tribulation, they will not realize what they are going through, and could be easily set up to fall for the anti-Christ. I haven’t read through Revelation for a while, but if I find another trumpet after the trumpet judgements, I am prepared to change my opinion of a mid-trib rapture.

Regardless, there is still the problem of explaining what Paul meant by the phrase, “Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air ,…” If Christians are going to be taken up to meet Christ in the air, isn’t that what the rapture is? If not, what is it?
 
Cachonga said:
I don’t think the rapture is found in Revelation. The source I have always been directed to is 2 Thes 2:16-17 (15-16 in the DR). Notice what verse 16 says - “Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air, and so shall we be always with the Lord.” (DR). I used to believe in the pre-trib rapture, but I started looking closer at what Paul wrote, and I noticed that this will take place “at the last trump” (not worded like this in all translations, but still something to consider). Revelation does show that there will be 7 seal judgments, followed by 7 trumpet judgements. Unless there is another trumpet blast after these judgements, it seems to me that the last trumpet would be the signal for the rapture.

I agree that the idea of a pre-trib rapture is a dangerous thing. Christians will go through at least the seal and trumpet judgements, and if someone thinks the rapture will occur before the tribulation, they will not realize what they are going through, and could be easily set up to fall for the anti-Christ. I haven’t read through Revelation for a while, but if I find another trumpet after the trumpet judgements, I am prepared to change my opinion of a mid-trib rapture.

Regardless, there is still the problem of explaining what Paul meant by the phrase, “Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air ,…” If Christians are going to be taken up to meet Christ in the air, isn’t that what the rapture is? If not, what is it?
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Since the term “rapture”, has only recently been inserted into the milieu of Christian thought, one must look to the soundness of the methodology employed by its developers: private interpretation of scriptural prophecy. Since much of the division in the the Body of Christ traces its roots to private (ego-driven) interpretation of scripture, this method is immediately suspect. Checking the bible on this very subject, we see that, Peter (2 Peter 1:20), specifically condemns the private interpretation of scriptural prophecy. The thoughtful Christian must then ponder the efficacy of the “rapture” doctrine, since its very foundation is non-biblical, even anti-biblical in nature.

Catholic teaching aligns, not surprisingly, 100% with the plain meaning of scripture: there will be a second coming of Christ. Beyond this, much remains a simply mystery.

But, as to this entire “left behind” assertion, consider how God has worked throughout recorded history: in the flood, the bad were taken and the good (Noah and family) were “left behind”. In crossing the Red Sea, the bad (Egyptians) were taken, the good (Moses and the Hebrews) were “left behind”. In the desert, Dathan and those who opposed Moses were taken and the good were “left behind”. Do we suppose now that, for the sake of a pop theory about the end times, that God will suddenly reverse His nature and work opposite to that which He has consistently revealed to man? Illogical.
 
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po18guy:
Since the term “rapture”, has only recently been inserted into the milieu of Christian thought, one must look to the soundness of the methodology employed by its developers: private interpretation of scriptural prophecy. Since much of the division in the the Body of Christ traces its roots to private (ego-driven) interpretation of scripture, this method is immediately suspect. Checking the bible on this very subject, we see that, Peter (2 Peter 1:20), specifically condemns the private interpretation of scriptural prophecy. The thoughtful Christian must then ponder the efficacy of the “rapture” doctrine, since its very foundation is non-biblical, even anti-biblical in nature.
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Actually, if you look at 2 Peter 1:21 (“For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost.” DR), you can see that Peter is discussing how Scripture came from God, not man. Since this is off topic, I will say no more about this, but I would ask how you (or the Church) interprets 2 Thes 4:16 (“Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air, and so shall we be always with the Lord.” DR).
Catholic teaching aligns, not surprisingly, 100% with the plain meaning of scripture: there will be a second coming of Christ. Beyond this, much remains a simply mystery.
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So, again, what is the Catholic teaching on 2 Thes 4:16 (in the DR)?
But, as to this entire “left behind” assertion, consider how God has worked throughout recorded history: in the flood, the bad were taken and the good (Noah and family) were “left behind”. In crossing the Red Sea, the bad (Egyptians) were taken, the good (Moses and the Hebrews) were “left behind”. In the desert, Dathan and those who opposed Moses were taken and the good were “left behind”. Do we suppose now that, for the sake of a pop theory about the end times, that God will suddenly reverse His nature and work opposite to that which He has consistently revealed to man? Illogical.
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Your logic is flawed. Consider - God is going to pass judgment on the wicked and save the righteous. Noah and his family are brought into the ark and saved from God’s judgement, everyone else was “left behind” to face God’s judgement. God delivered Moses and the Isrealites from destruction by opening the Red Sea for them to cross over safely. Once they were through, those who were “left behind” (the Egyptians) faced God’s judgement. In the rapture, (as I’ve been told), God is bringing judgement on the Earth, but brings His people out, while those “left behind” will have to face His judgement (this is where most people get the idea of a pre-trib rapture). In every case, God saves His elect from the coming judgement.

As I stated before, I do not believe in a pre-trib rapture, and I could be persuaded that the rapture won’t happen until after the tribulation period (if I find evidence of another trumpet being sounded after the trumpet judgments are done). I would say that anyone looking for the rapture would make better use of their time by studying the Scriptures, praying, meditating on God’s word, etc…
 
Thank you everyone.

I have really appreciated everyone thoughts, opinions and guidance on this!
 
Cachonga said:
Actually, if you look at 2 Peter 1:21 (“For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost.” DR)
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Precisely.
Cachonga said:
So, again, what is the Catholic teaching on 2 Thes 4:16 (in the DR)?
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There is no official, verse-by-verse teaching. However, the catechism teaching on Christ’s second coming may be found here.
Cachonga said:
Your logic is flawed.
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Well, call John Martignoni and straighten him out, then. I think we are simply looking at the definition of “left behind” from separate angles.

An acceptable teaching on the “rapture” may be found, 11th from the top, on this page.
 
The Catholic position is that Rapture theology is a work of fiction which has been adopted by some non-Catholic Christians as part of their belief systems. Rapture theology comes from a work of fiction written by Tim Lahaye and Jerry B. Jenkins entitled “Left Behind” The “Left Behind” series of books is acknowledged by both authors as works of fiction. Not only does rapture theology have no basis in scripture, it is exactly the opposite of what scripture actually says.

The basic premise of the Left Behind novels rests on the idea of a “Rapture” whereby all true Christian believers are taken up into the clouds to meet Jesus as the end of the world approaches. Everyone else - non-believers and sinners - are “Left behind” as the books title implies. This faulty interpretation is supposedly based on Jesus’ discussion of the end of the world in Matthew 24 and similar text in Mark and Luke.

*“So it will be also at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be out in the field; one will be taken, and one will be left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be take, and one will be left.” (Matthew 24:39-41)*The faulty interpetation of this passage - that all true believers will be taken away by Christ (raptured) and that non-believers will be “Left Behind” - fails to take into account the verses preceeding those cited above. The full context of “one will be taken, and one will be left” is given below.

**"For as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. In those days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day that Noah entered the ark. They did not know until the flood came and carried them away. So will it be also at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be out in the field; one will be taken, and one will be left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken, and one will be left. (Matthew 24: 37-41)**When Jesus says “One will be taken, and one will be left behind”, he is referencing Noah and the flood in the Book of Genesis.

*Everything on dry land with the faintest breath of life in its nostrils died out. The LORD wiped out every living thing on earth: man and cattle, the creeping things and the birds of the air; all were wiped out from the earth. Only Noah and those with him in the ark were left. (Genesis 7:22-23)*Noah was a righteous man and only he and his family survived the flood. Everyone else - the unrighteous, sinners, non-belivers, were “Carried away” by the flood. But rapture theology has it exactly reversed. In the flood, the good guys were left and the bad guys were taken away. In repture theology, bad guys are lft and the good guys are taken away. Luke’s recounting of Jesus “One will be taken, and one will be left” statement includes references to Lot and his escape from Sodom. Again, Rapture theology has reversed scripture. Lot is righteous and he is “Left behind” while Sodom is destroyed and the bad guys are “Taken away” by fire and brimstone.

Rapture: Good guys get taken, bad guys stay
Bible: Good guys stay, bad guys get taken awayRapture theology is also based in part on a passage from 1 Thessalonians

*Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:17)*Rapture theology states that those who are “Raptured” will meet Jesus in the clouds and that he will take them all to heaven. The problem with this intepretation is that the passage above is a references to an ancient custom practiced in biblical times whereby the citizens of the city would leave city’s protective gates and “Go out” a few miles to meet a visiting king or general. Doing so was a sign of respect as the visiting king usually had soldiers with him and the citizenry of the city would be unprotected. The citizens of the city would then escort the king or general back to the city as an honored guest.

Again, this is exactly the opposite of rapture theology. In rapture theology, the good guys who are “Raptured” go up to meet Jesus in the clouds where Jesus does a U-turn and escorts them to Heaven. The biblical practice which Paul is referencing in 1 Thessalonians has the good guys “Going out” to meet Jesus and then they escort Jesus to earth.

Rapture: Jesus comes and escorts the righteous to Heaven.
Bible: Jesus comes and the righteous escort Jesus to earth.Rapture theology necessitates three comings of Christ; the first at the incarnation when Christ dies for our sins, the second (partial) coming at the rapture, and the thrrd at the end of time. The Bible speaks only of two visits to earth by Christ. Nowhere does Scripture mention three visits or two full visits and one partial visit (2.5 comings of Christ?).

There is a whole bunch of other stuff which rapture theology claims but the evidence above should be enough to convince anyone that Rapture theology is 100% reversed from what Scripture actually says.

Rapture theology is quite literally fiction from a best selling novel.

-Tim-
 
Cachonga said:
Regardless, there is still the problem of explaining what Paul meant by the phrase, “Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air ,…” If Christians are going to be taken up to meet Christ in the air, isn’t that what the rapture is? If not, what is it?
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There is no problem in explaining this, as I have stated in my other post.

“Going out” to meet a visiting dignitary like a king or general was a common practice as a sign of respect. The citizenry of a city would leave the protective gates of the city and “Go out” to meet the dignitary and then escort him back to the city as an honored guest. This is similar to the mayor going out to the airport to meet a visiting politician like the president. This practice is well documented as being a common occurance.

Rapture theology has the righteous “Going out” to meet Jesus and then Jesus escorts them to heaven. The practice which Paul is referencing in 1 Thessalonians is exactly the opposite - the righteous go out to meet Jesus and then they escort him back to earth. That is the context of Paul’s statement about going out to meet Jesus in the air. Ancient Jews would have immediately recognized this statement but we don’t realize what it means because we no longer “Go out” to meet dignitaries outside of the city gates.

Rapture theology has it 100% reversed!

You really can’t read much of scripture by yourself and hope to come to an accurate interpetation unless you have some understanding of the economic, social and political environment under which the authors and their audience operated and the custom’s which were practiced.
Cachonga said:
I am prepared to change my opinion of a mid-trib rapture.
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Are you prepared to change your opinin that the Rapture is one hundred percent a reversal of what scripture actually says???

-Tim-
 
po18guy said:
one must look to the soundness of the methodology employed by its developers: private interpretation of scriptural prophecy.
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There was no “Mothodology empoyed by it’s developers.”

It’s “Developers” were writing a New York Times best selling novel which a bunch of people believed was real!

AAARGH! Snow White is as theologically sound as the rapture!!!

Please stop!!! :mad:

-Tim-
 
MikaAkim said:
I am curious how the rapture and the book of revelation is viewed by Catholics? I aloways thought that the book of revelation was pretty self explanitory and dont understand how anyone can read it any diffrent. I may be wrong, but doesnt it clear state that the rapture, 7 year tribulation, second coming is going to happen?
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The Protestant doctrine of the pre-tribulation Rapture is an invention of the 19th century.

The biblical Parousia when Christ return to Earth at the end of time to establish His eternal Kingdom is the Catholic Teaching.

Here is a more complete treatment of the subject: catholic.com/library/Rapture.asp
 
Ignatius said:
The Protestant doctrine of the pre-tribulation Rapture is an invention of the 19th century.

The biblical Parousia when Christ come at the end of time to establish His neverending Kingdom is the Catholic Teaching.
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Very well said.
Thank you so much.
 
TimothyH said:
There was no “Mothodology empoyed by it’s developers.”
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First, please take a breath! There most certainly was a methodology, even in the creation of a work of fiction: private interpretation or twisting of scripture.
TimothyH said:
It’s “Developers” were writing a New York Times best selling novel which a bunch of people believed was real! AAARGH! Snow White is as theologically sound as the rapture!!!
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Snow White is actually more sound than the rapture. However, I doubt you’ll find a Christian brother or sister fervently hoping for the arrival of Snow White. Thus, we must engage rapture believers and reveal the biblical truth to them, no? Since they are nearly all “bible” Christians, isn’t the most efficacious approach to use the bible to defeat the “rapture”?
 
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