How is this not heresy?

[Wesrock]

Wesrock:

Allah isn’t a name. It’s just the Arabic word for God, which Christians speaking Arabic use, too.

I know, but what does that matter? Many neo-pagans use the word “God” too. Heck, many heretics (like Arius) even used the word Christ. But if their conception of God is different than ours (i.e., not the Holy Trinity) then they are heretics, and no church has the right to say that they adore the Creator of Heaven and Earth.

To be heretics doesn’t mean they don’t recognize the one true God. They just have grave misconceptions about him. Contrast this with Mormons who DO NOT believe in the same God because God as they understand him is not eternal, is a creature, was once like us, also has a father, etc…

 

[ReaderT]

Isn’t that what we believe? We believe in one God. The Father Almighty maker of heaven & earth.

We believe in the Trinity, but the three is one. One God.

We believe in the Three persons as one God. They believe in one person as one god. That is a hugely different god. Their different god is not " the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth" but Vatican 2 says it is apparently.

 

[Wesrock]

BartholomewB:

there is no Trinity in the OT.

Your church teaches “there is no [manifestation of the] Trinity in the OT”?

Abraham worshipped God not at all in the form of unipersonal monotheism, but in the form of the Holy Trinity. Genesis chapter 18: “Again God appeared unto him in the plain of Mamre, as he sat in his tent door about the heat of the day. And he lifted up his eyes, and looked: and lo, three men stood by him, and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself to the ground.” The Faith of Abraham was the Faith in Jesus Christ. Such also was the Faith of the Prophet-King David, who heard the heavenly Father speaking to His Consubstantial Son: The Lord said unto my Lord (Ps. 109:1; Acts 2:34). Such was the Faith of the Three Youths in the fiery furnace when they were saved by the Son of God (Dan. 3:25); and of the holy Prophet Daniel, who had the Vision of the two natures of Jesus Christ in the Mystery of the Incarnation when the Son of Man came to the Ancient of Days (Dan. 7:13). This is why the Lord, addressing the (biologically incontestable) posterity of Abraham, said: If ye were the children of Abraham, ye would do the works of Abraham (St. John 8:39). and these “works” are to believe on Him Whom God hath sent (St. John 6:29).

But they did not know God as Triune. Neither Abraham nor Moses nor David. Yet they worshipped the one true God, just without knowing something that could only be known by direct revelation.

 

[ReaderT]

To be heretics doesn’t mean they don’t recognize the one true God. They just have grave misconceptions about him. Contrast this with Mormons who DO NOT believe in the same God because God as they understand him is not eternal, is a creature, was once like us, also has a father, etc…

Wesrock - The part I’m saying is “heresy” statement in Nostra Aetate. I’m saying the Catholic Church made a heretical statement by saying a non-trinitarian deity is " the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth"

 

[Wesrock]

There is only one God. It is not a different God. It is just a limited and wrong understanding of him.

 

[Wesrock]

Wesrock:

To be heretics doesn’t mean they don’t recognize the one true God. They just have grave misconceptions about him. Contrast this with Mormons who DO NOT believe in the same God because God as they understand him is not eternal, is a creature, was once like us, also has a father, etc…

Wesrock - The part I’m saying is “heresy” statement in Nostra Aetate. I’m saying the Catholic Church made a heretical statement by saying a non-trinitarian deity is " the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth"

They didn’t say a non-Trinitarian deity is that. They said the Muslims worship God (who is Triune) with an incomplete understanding of him.

 

[BartholomewB]

Abraham worshipped God not at all in the form of unipersonal monotheism, but in the form of the Holy Trinity.

No, he didn’t. In all those OT passages you are quoting – Genesis, Psalms, and Daniel – there is nothing to challenge the Jewish view of a unitarian God. Only in the NT passages.

 

[ReaderT]

No, he didn’t. In all those OT passages you are quoting – Genesis, Psalms, and Daniel – there is nothing to challenge to the Jewish view of a unitarian God. Only in the NT passages.

Bartholomew, the Genesis passage says clearly that “God” appeared to him, and then it says “three people” - I mean, that’s pretty, clear don’t you think?

 

[ReaderT]

Everyone, I have to log out, I’m at the public library and the computers are shutting down. I’ll respond tomorrow if possible.

 

[Godfollower]

As a general rule, when you find your reasoning conflicting with the statements of Holy Mother Church, it’s a good idea to question whether the heresy might be in your reasoning.

You’re saying that there are two gods — ours and the Muslims’ — and that it’s heresy to claim that the Muslims are worshipping our god when in fact they’re worshipping the other one (and you know which god they’re worshipping by the way they describe him).

The Church says that there is only one God, and the Muslims adore Him. It doesn’t say that they describe or understand Him correctly; it doesn’t say that their faith is correct or equivalent to ours; it just says that they adore Him.

There is only one God. Your thesis — that their god is not the same as ours — is impossible, because it requires that there be more than one god. The truth is that Christians, Jews, and Muslims all adore the only God Who exists. We just disagree on what He’s like.

The emotion you’re feeling that leads you to dislike this provision in the Catechism arises out of your mistaken belief that Paragraph 841 equates Islam with Christianity. It does no such thing. It merely acknowledges that Muslims adore God. This passage does not mean that Islam is correct, or “just as good” as Christianity; it merely notes a starting point for dialogue, because — unlike other religions — Islam correctly acknowledges that there is only one God.

To put it another way, on judgment day, when Hindus, Shinto, Buddhists, etc. are all running around saying “OMG, there’s only one God?!?!”, Muslims’ reaction will be “Yes, exactly; that’s what we’ve been saying all along!” — just as Christians and Jews will react. They will then be surprised at how much they got wrong (including about God’s very nature); but this basic tenet that there is only one God will not be a surprise.

There is only one God. They adore Him. So do we. So do Jewish people. It’s no heresy to recognize that.

 

[LilyM]

St Paul, speaking to pagan Greeks at the Areopagus, seized on their ‘unknown God’ and said that without realising it they worshipped his (One true) God.

If pagans who.had not heard of Abraham could do so, how much more so Muslims who know and revere Abraham.

 

[Divine3]

There is no time line when “Abraham rejoiced to see My day.”. . We don’t know how he saw it. Was it a future vision? There is no mention of the Holy Spirit either. We believe in one God and so do the Muslims. They just don’t believe that Jesus is God or in the blessed Trinity. I see no problem with the Vatican statement.

Didn’t you read what Jesus said in John’s Gospel? “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day: and he saw it , and was glad.”

 

[Justin_Mary]

Sorry if it was vague, but the part I believe is heresy is the Catholic church (Vatican 2) saying that the (non-Trinity) god they adore is nevertheless " the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth "

I think the Church is saying they worship the God of Abraham even though they don’t fully understand Him. Same with the Jews.

 

[Justin_Mary]

Such was the Faith of the Three Youths in the fiery furnace when they were saved by the Son of God (Dan. 3:25)

Can you provide the text from your bible? Mine (NABRE) says “angel of God” Dan 3:49

But the angel of the Lord went down into the furnace with Azariah and his companions, drove the fiery flames out of the furnace, 50and made the inside of the furnace as though a dew-laden breeze were blowing through it.

 

[BartholomewB]

Bartholomew, the Genesis passage says clearly that “God” appeared to him, and then it says “three people” - I mean, that’s pretty, clear don’t you think?

Read on, @ReaderT! You’ll find your question answered in Gen 19:1. One of the three “men” is God and the other two are angels.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I think the Church is saying they worship the God of Abraham even though they don’t fully understand Him. Same with the Jews.

Which is quite reasonable. It simply describes THEIR views and considers them closer to us than they are to, say Animists.

 

[Dan_Defender]

Are you speaking here your opinion or the official position of the Eastern Orthodox? If the latter, please show us the document where the EO declares Islam a Christian heresy.

 

[BartholomewB]

@ReaderT, I will probably be offline when you come back on Monday. Let me leave you with this. I can find no fault with Catholic teaching as set out in The Jewish People and their Sacred Scriptures in the Christian Bible, published by the Pontifical Biblical Commission in 2001, over the signature of the Commission’s president, the then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger. If you’re interested, you can read the whole document on the Holy See website (link below). Here is one of the key paragraphs, #21:

1. The basic theological presupposition is that God’s salvific plan which culminates in Christ (cf. Ep 1:3-14) is a unity, but that it is realised progressively over the course of time. Both the unity and the gradual realisation are important; likewise, continuity in certain points and discontinuity in others. From the outset, the action of God regarding human beings has tended towards final fulfilment and, consequently, certain aspects that remain constant began to appear: God reveals himself, calls, confers a mission, promises, liberates, makes a covenant. The first realisations, though provisional and imperfect, already give a glimpse of the final plenitude. This is particularly evident in certain important themes which are developed throughout the entire Bible, from Genesis to Revelation: the way, the banquet, God’s dwelling among men. Beginning from a continuous re-reading of events and texts, the Old Testament itself progressively opens up a perspective of fulfilment that is final and definitive. The Exodus, the primordial experience of Israel’s faith (cf. Dt 6:20-25; 26:5-9) becomes the symbol of final salvation. Liberation from the Babylonian Exile and the prospect of an eschatological salvation are described as a new Exodus.41 Christian interpretation is situated along these lines with this difference, that the fulfilment is already substantially realised in the mystery of Christ.

The notion of fulfilment is an extremely complex one,42 one that could easily be distorted if there is a unilateral insistence either on continuity or discontinuity. Christian faith recognises the fulfilment, in Christ, of the Scriptures and the hopes of Israel, but it does not understand this fulfilment as a literal one. Such a conception would be reductionist. In reality, in the mystery of Christ crucified and risen, fulfilment is brought about in a manner unforeseen. It includes transcendence.43 Jesus is not confined to playing an already fixed role — that of Messiah — but he confers, on the notions of Messiah and salvation, a fullness which could not have been imagined in advance; he fills them with a new reality; one can even speak in this connection of a “new creation”.44 It would be wrong to consider the prophecies of the Old Testament as some kind of photographic anticipations of future events. All the

[cont.]

 

[BartholomewB]

[cont.]

prophecies of the Old Testament as some kind of photographic anticipations of future events. All the texts, including those which later were read as messianic prophecies, already had an immediate import and meaning for their contemporaries before attaining a fuller meaning for future hearers. The messiahship of Jesus has a meaning that is new and original.

The original task of the prophet was to help his contemporaries understand the events and the times they lived in from God’s viewpoint. Accordingly, excessive insistence, characteristic of a certain apologetic, on the probative value attributable to the fulfilment of prophecy must be discarded. This insistence has contributed to harsh judgements by Christians of Jews and their reading of the Old Testament: the more reference to Christ is found in Old Testament texts, the more the incredulity of the Jews is considered inexcusable and obstinate.

Insistence on discontinuity between both Testaments and going beyond former perspectives should not, however, lead to a one-sided spiritualisation. What has already been accomplished in Christ must yet be accomplished in us and in the world. The definitive fulfilment will be at the end with the resurrection of the dead, a new heaven and a new earth. Jewish messianic expectation is not in vain. It can become for us Christians a powerful stimulant to keep alive the eschatological dimension of our faith. Like them, we too live in expectation. The difference is that for us the One who is to come will have the traits of the Jesus who has already come and is already present and active among us.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...on_cfaith_doc_20020212_popolo-ebraico_en.html

 

[Justin_Mary]

Read on, @ReaderT! You’ll find your question answered in Gen 19:1. One of the three “men” is God and the other two are angels.

I’m truly curious what the Orthodox teach. I mean we know God is the same today as we was yesterday & will be tomorrow. Never changing always new.

Maybe the Hebrew people just couldn’t express the idea of Trinity. I’ve always wondered why was he the God of Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob. Why didn’t Abraham have 12 sons & directly Father nations? Why is he the father of nations through Isaac, through Jacob.

Do not make void your Covenant for the sake of Abraham your beloved, Isaac your servant, and Jacob your holy one…

Abraham… the father of nations
Isaac… one who laughs
Israel… he who wrestles with God

There’s a lesson in there.