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How long will it take for non-Catholics to finally accept Catholicism?
- Status
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sola_scriptura
Guest
I tend to disagree with this statement. Not out of bias (even though it might seem to be). Right now ecumenical relations among Protestant denominations are soaring. The Lutherans are in communion with Anglicans, and the Methodists, Lutherans, Episcopalians, and Presbyterians are in discussions now toward forming a similar communion. These are far reaching agreements; recognizing each others orders, allowing its members to receive the Eucharist in any church within the communion, etc.
Indeed there are many small movements that have died out over the years – but the good ones flourish. This has been going on since the reformation began & protestantism is still the fastest growing segment of Christianity. We not only see many Catholics coming over (even though we in mainstream denominations do not evangelize to members of other Christian faiths – but we also won’t turn away a former Catholic as you wouldn’t do to a former Protestant) – but we’re bringing millions into the body of Christ every day who never heard the word. Just look at what primarily protestant denominations (particularly the charismatic holiness movement) have done in Africa (although mainstream denominations have always had a presence in Africa – they are often associated with Europe and colonialism).
In this country the evangelical movement is flourishing. The funny thing for all we in the “mainstream” world have to say about these folks – they are the ones really holding down the faith. They are the holy rollers – to spite doctrines like OSAS. Certainly many Catholics join them in things like anti-abortion protests and so on. However, by most estimates only about one third of Catholics actually agree with the Catholic Church in most matters of faith and morals (many Catholics are as liberal as anyone & if it were up to them they would ordain gay clergy and females, adopt a pro-choice position, etc. – in effect if they cared enough – which apparently they don’t – they would start another rebellion themselves, but this time based on all the wrong reasons).
Many times when we have seen Catholics and evangelicals team up it is through evangelical organizations like the moral majority (started by Jerry Falwell). Indeed the world always paints evangelicals out to be intolerant and angry – when in my personal experience the exact opposite is true. Most evangelicals I’ve met are more Christ like than anyone. Always friendly, never taking insults to heart, always persevering through chastisement, and never bending to the world. We should all be more like them.
So I think a reality check is in order here?
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Cinette
Guest
I don’t think you realise what you are saying!
So, because human beings are bad, selfish, some steal, some are thoroughly dishonest and all the things humans can be, ARE YOU GOING TO ABDICATE FROM BEING A HUMAN BEING???
THINK
:extrahappy:
:bigyikes:
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
Might the OP have Romans 9 to 11 in mind 
?
- Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place to share the richness of the olive tree,
- Rom 11:18 do not boast over the branches. If you do boast, remember it is not you that support the root, but the root that supports you.
- Rom 11:19 You will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
- Rom 11:20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe.
- Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.
- Rom 11:22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.
- Rom 11:23 And even the others, if they do not persist in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.
- Rom 11:24 For if you have been cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree.
- Rom 11:25 **Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in, **
- Rom 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
- Rom 11:27 “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” Rom 11:28 As regards the gospel they are enemies of God, for your sake; but as regards election they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.
- Rom 11:29 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.
- Rom 11:30 Just as you were once disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience,
- Rom 11:31 so they have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may receive mercy.
- Rom 11:32 For God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all.
- Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
- Rom 11:34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?”
- Rom 11:35 “Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?”
- Rom 11:36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory for ever. Amen.
This is from the RSV.
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
It does - see also 1 Cor. 13, where St. Paul says the same. Catholic dogma calls this the Beatific Vision. (Contrast with this:
- Exd 33:12 Moses said to the LORD, "See, thou sayest to me, ‘Bring up this people’; but thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me. Yet thou hast said, ‘I know you by name, and you have also found favor in my sight.’
- Exd 33:13 Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found favor in thy sight, show me now thy ways, that I may know thee and find favor in thy sight. Consider too that this nation is thy people."
- Exd 33:14 And he said, “My presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.”
- Exd 33:15 And he said to him, "If thy presence will not go with me, do not carry us up from here.
- Exd 33:16 For how shall it be known that I have found favor in thy sight, I and thy people? Is it not in thy going with us, so that we are distinct, I and thy people, from all other people that are upon the face of the earth?"
- Exd 33:17 And the LORD said to Moses, “This very thing that you have spoken I will do; for you have found favor in my sight, and I know you by name.”
- Exd 33:18 **Moses said, “I pray thee, show me thy glory.” **
- Exd 33:19 And he said, "I will make all my goodness pass before you, and will proclaim before you my name ‘The LORD’; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.
- Exd 33:20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face; for man shall not see me and live."
- Exd 33:21 And the LORD said, "Behold, there is a place by me where you shall stand upon the rock;
- Exd 33:22 and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by;
- Exd 33:23 then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back; but my face shall not be seen."
22.4 is also a contrast with Rev. 1.7: - Rev 1:7 **Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, every one who pierced him; and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen. **
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jmcrae
Guest
This is exactly what’s going to kill it, ultimately. Every group of Protestant denominations that has attempted this has always died off within 100 to 150 years - and lost its faith in Christ well before then. Look at the United Church of Canada and the United Methodists - both of them started off very strong, with several denominations all sharing communion with each other and coming up with a common statement of faith.
I doubt you’d recommend either one to a serious seeker today.
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sola_scriptura
Guest
The churches of the original reformers are still going strong. However, I know the death of protestantism is your dream since you’re obviously an anti-protestant bigot (I’ve seen more then once post by you about the impending death of protestantism). I see no use in this discussion frankly. I’ll let you have your fantasy (I bet you dream of things like riding through ancient Europe on your crusader horse with one of those knights templar outfits on & killing the rebel protestants). Sad
You sound like the President of Iran talking about the impending death of Israel. People like you make this world much more screwed up than it has to be.
However, I know it’s a feeling of personal inadequacy that makes one a bigot – so I’ll pray for you.
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jmcrae
Guest
Actually, they no longer exist. The original Church of Scotland has splintered into the Presbyterians, the Wee Free, and several others. The original Lutheranism has splintered into several distinct forms, as have Calvinism, and the Anabaptist movement.
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sola_scriptura
Guest
Fair enough … if you would like to continue this bitter dialog, let’s have at it then. We may be fractured but we’re coming together.
*FORT WORTH, Texas (ELCA) – By a vote of 864-19, the General Conference of the United Methodist Church (UMC) adopted an implementing resolution April 28 that will establish full communion with the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA). Full communion will be fully realized by both churches should the same proposal be adopted at the next ELCA Churchwide Assembly, which meets Aug. 17-23, 2009, in Minneapolis.
. . .
The ELCA’s five full communion partners are the Episcopal Church, the Moravian Church in America, Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), Reformed Church in America and United Church of Christ.
archive.elca.org/ScriptLib/CO/ELCA_News/encArticleList.asp?article=3850 *
Indeed this is only an example. Today most mainline Protestant denominations are either in communion with each other or currently negotiating a union.
Now I think you said within 200 years (or 150) the Protestant religion will be dead. Well let’s look at the reality:
*Religious observers predict that the new pope will have to face the challenge of how to react to the Protestant evangelical churches that are rapidly expanding across the globe, according to the Associated Press.
christiantoday.com/article/new.pope.faces.challenge.of.evangelical.protestant.growth/2631.htm
Protestant Christianity has been a prominent part of the general religious resurgence in China in the past two decades. Today, on any given Sunday there are almost certainly more Protestants in church in China than in all of Europe.
cache.search.yahoo.net/search/cache?ei=UTF-8&p=protestant+growth&fr=moz2&u=https://www.calvin.edu/nagel/resources/bays_chinese_protestant.pdf&w=protestant+protestants+growth+growths&d=alb1xhg5RQys&icp=1&.intl=us
"The number of Brazilians who declare themselves Catholics has diminished rapidly, on an average of 1% a year.
In 1991 Catholic Brazilians were nearly 83%, today and according to new studies, they are barely 67%. We wonder with anxiety: how long will Brazil remain a Catholic country?
In conformity with this situation, it has been found that in Brazil there are two Protestant pastors for each Catholic priest, and the majority from the Pentecostal Churches. Many indications show that the same is true for almost all of Latin America and here too we wonder: how long will Latin America remain a Catholic continent?"
In 1952 the Spanish Church had 7,052 seminarians. In 2002 it had 1,797.
In1980 the French Church had about 35,000 priests. In 2000 this had declined to 19,000.
In 1989 the German Church had 297 priestly ordinations. In 2002 it had 131.
In 1989 the German Church had 1,667 seminarians. In 2002 it had 1,035.
Attendance at Mass.
In 1958, a Gallup Poll reported that 74% of Catholics then attended church on Sundays.
In 1965, it seems that 65% attended, according to a recent Fordham University study.
In 1994, it seems that 27% attended church, according to study by the University of Notre Dame.
In 2000, the rate was 25%, according to the Fordham study.
Indicative beliefs
70% of all Catholics in the age group 18 to 44 believe the Eucharist is a “symbolic reminder” of Jesus.
90% of lay religious teachers reject church teaching on contraception.
53% believe a Catholic can have an abortion and remain a good Catholic.
65% believe that Catholics may divorce and remarry.
75% believe one can be a good Catholic without attending mass on Sundays.
geocities.com/pharsea/Decline.html *
*ELEANOR HALL: One of the challenges that the new Pope will face will be turning around the tide of Catholics who are converting to Protestantism. Nowhere is this more apparent than in Latin America, which is home to nearly half the world’s Catholics, but where Protestant conversions are on the rise.
Brian Byrnes reports from the capital of Argentina, Buenos Aires.
BRIAN BYRNES: Friday night at San Pablo Pentecostal Church in Buenos Aires and Guillermo Pineda is warming up the crowd for a spirited night of music and prayer.
(Sound of clapping)
Twenty years ago Pineda was without a job or a home and was mourning the death of his parents and his brother. He says that when he left the Catholic Church and joined the Pentecostal Church, a void in his life was filled.
“I came here and I found love. I found the truth, and I found the type of restoration that you don’t generally have in other churches. But above all, I found a true Christ,” he says.
abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2005/s1348759.htm
In 1960, there were an estimated 50 million evangelical Christians in the West, and 25 million in the rest of the world; today, there are an estimated 75 million in the West, and 325 million in the rest of the world (representing about 20 percent of the two billion Christians worldwide), according to Robert Kilgore, chairman of the board of the missionary organization Christar.
Other experts differ on the number of evangelicals (estimates range from 250 million to nearly one billion) but agree that the number is growing rapidly.
prayerfoundation.org/evangelical_christianity_shifting_outside_west.htm *
At these rates it looks like the rumors of our impending demise are premature. In fact according to these numbers and the rate at which Protestant (primarily evangelical) denominations are replacing Catholics – there won’t be any left in 100 years.
Certainly in Latin America the evangelical movement is exploding – replacing the Roman church at alarming rates. If these rates continue the Roman church in Latin America will be virtually non-existent within the next century (or perhaps sooner).
Protestant denominations are exploding in China, Korea (and Asia more generally), Africa, Latin America, Australia, and the rest of the world at alarming rates (faster than even Islam is growing) – while the Catholic Church is in steady decline.
So I’m really not sure what you’re basing your numbers on – but it’s obviously not reality.
The fact is one of the reasons cited for our explosive growth is the number of choices people have. However, as you see even among denominations with differing theological views (such as Presbyterians, who are Calvinists, Methodists who are Arminians, Lutherans who are somewhere in between, Episcopalians, Catholic light, the various Reformed churches, also Calvinist, etc.) we are forming communions that recognize we’re one church and one body in Christ.
The evangelical movement has close ties with the Methodist movement (most of them are Wesleyan in character) – so we will come together with them.
Even some Baptist churches (with the exception of Southern Baptists) are part of large ecumenical organizations that form strong bonds among all Protestant denominations.
Sweet dreams.
J
jmcrae
Guest
There were the worshippers of Baal, who took all of Israel except for Elijah and 100 prophets who were kept hidden away in caves. Elijah won, as I recall.
There was Arianism, which took the whole Church except for St. Athanasius and the Diocese of Rome. St. Athanasius won, as I recall, and the Diocese of Rome was reaffirmed as the central authority of Christianity.
As in those days, we also have in these days a catastrophic lack of catechesis - a lack that is being turned around even as we speak. I believe that Pope Benedict XVI is our modern day Elijah and Athanasius - I believe that he will prevail.
There was Arianism, which took the whole Church except for St. Athanasius and the Diocese of Rome. St. Athanasius won, as I recall, and the Diocese of Rome was reaffirmed as the central authority of Christianity.
As in those days, we also have in these days a catastrophic lack of catechesis - a lack that is being turned around even as we speak. I believe that Pope Benedict XVI is our modern day Elijah and Athanasius - I believe that he will prevail.
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sola_scriptura
Guest
I think the RCC will have to reform again to meet these challenges (as it had to in order to meet the challenge of Lutheranism).There were the worshippers of Baal, who took all of Israel except for Elijah and 100 prophets who were kept hidden away in caves. Elijah won, as I recall.
There was Arianism, which took the whole Church except for St. Athanasius and the Diocese of Rome. St. Athanasius won, as I recall, and the Diocese of Rome was reaffirmed as the central authority of Christianity.
As in those days, we also have in these days a catastrophic lack of catechesis - a lack that is being turned around even as we speak. I believe that Pope Benedict XVI is our modern day Elijah and Athanasius - I believe that he will prevail.
You can compare the Protestant faith to baal if you would like (ironically you will find no icons or statutes in our churches – so I fail to see the analogy, but whatever). However, the reality is that that Protestantism is a different apple. Baal worship didn’t last 500 years and counting. Baal worship never grew into a worldwide movement. This sort of narrow mindedness on your part is quite astonishing.
The fact is the only way the RCC has ever risen to the challenges of Protestantism was to become more like Protestants.
I see many things wrong with both Catholicism and mainline protestantism. The celibacy requirement is killing the priesthood, while liberalism is creating an exodus to conservative evangelical churches. The RCC simply won’t be able to compete because it will not be able to recruit enough priests unless it drops celibacy. Taking a non-zealous and scholarly look at these numbers I think my view is correct.
Catholics who actually attend Mass, believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, etc. is now only at about a quarter of people who identify themselves as Catholic in this country. I do think those challenges can be met without changes, because frankly I think people should attend service every Sunday & I think there is a real presence in the Eucharist (I just wouldn’t seek to define this mystery as the RCC or even some Protestant denominations would).
God will shape things out exactly how He wants them to turn out. We will keep growing, denominations that are not in accord with the divine will shall keep dying, the Catholics will keep changing, etc. etc. Until one day all Christians are on the same page – God’s page.
As it is if one believes in Christ and follows His commandments they are in Christ … good enough for me. If you like you can have at you’re medieval bigotry, but it will get you nowhere.
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Cinette
Guest
:crying: Ouch Sola this is surely unworthy of you! I thought we had a truce and that we would refrain from name calling - I didn’t but got close. Now you sound like a M----- with this Crusader thing. I would like you to contemplate what would have happened to our world if it were not for the Crusaders!!! Sure there were excesses but the outcome was beneficial. I am not saying that the end justifies the means but the Crusaders sure had a very important and positive role.
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sola_scriptura
Guest
I was responding to another poster – who was extremely offensive to protestants (essentially inferring he wishes for the death of our religion). So yes I called it like I saw it. Frankly I should have probably ignored the poster – but honestly he was went too far & something had to be said:crying: Ouch Sola this is surely unworthy of you! I thought we had a truce and that we would refrain from name calling - I didn’t but got close. Now you sound like a M----- with this Crusader thing. I would like you to contemplate what would have happened to our world if it were not for the Crusaders!!! Sure there were excesses but the outcome was beneficial. I am not saying that the end justifies the means but the Crusaders sure had a very important and positive role.
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Cinette
Guest
By the way Sola you said something about St Augustine propounding predestination. I have no time to go digging and searching so I sent an email to a priest from one of my Parishes and although he was away at a conference he responded thus:I was responding to another poster – who was extremely offensive to protestants (essentially inferring he wishes for the death of our religion). So yes I called it like I saw it. Frankly I should have probably ignored the poster – but honestly he was went too far & something had to be said
*I think that he was very concerned with Pelagius and his doctrine of free will. He was almost trying to counter that: radicals free will vs. original sin. Augustine spent most of his career prominently writing against the non-predestinarian views of Pelagius. In Catholic doctrine, the accepted understanding of predestination most predominantly follows the interpretation of Thomas Aquinas, and can be contrasted with the Jansenist interpretation of Augustine. Augustines’ pre-destination was condemned (I think!) by the Church during the Counter-Reformation. *
Today is St Augustine’s feast day.
About that poster who insulted protestanism, let me say this. I would like to see all protestants join us. I do not hate protestants. I have said many times that they keep us on our toes and I treasure the many protestants who have converted. They are the best!
:extrahappy: So how could I be anti them.I do understand your feelings
I appreciate your participation and interest and great enthusiasm. You would make a great Catholic and maybe one day…
:yup:
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sola_scriptura
Guest
And the many Catholics I know who came over to Protestantism are great protestants – I guess all who convert to a different denomination are more dedicated than those born into it (let’s face it anyone who converts from the religion of their birth gives something up – many times it even hurts family relations, which takes quite a bit of devotion).By the way Sola you said something about St Augustine propounding predestination. I have no time to go digging and searching so I sent an email to a priest from one of my Parishes and although he was away at a conference he responded thus:
*I think that he was very concerned with Pelagius and his doctrine of free will. He was almost trying to counter that: radicals free will vs. original sin. Augustine spent most of his career prominently writing against the non-predestinarian views of Pelagius. In Catholic doctrine, the accepted understanding of predestination most predominantly follows the interpretation of Thomas Aquinas, and can be contrasted with the Jansenist interpretation of Augustine. Augustines’ pre-destination was condemned (I think!) by the Church during the Counter-Reformation. *
Today is St Augustine’s feast day.
About that poster who insulted protestanism, let me say this. I would like to see all protestants join us. I do not hate protestants. I have said many times that they keep us on our toes and I treasure the many protestants who have converted. They are the best!
I do understand your feelings
I appreciate your participation and interest and great enthusiasm. You would make a great Catholic and maybe one day…
Actually I’m quite sure you’re Priest was right about Augustine – I keep telling people the RCC has moved away from what they viewed as the “harsher” elements of his doctrine of predestination and grace (certain reformers felt that was a mistake).
I have also read Aquinas & while he was a brilliant theologian I don’t like how he leans on classical Greek philosophy (particularly Aristotle). I really think he was the innovator of a theory called Molinism (after a Jesuit priest who created quite an interested doctrine that asserted compatibility between free will & divine omniscience – the problem is with this theory is that it still maintains that we choose God & He does not choose us – which I believe to be contrary to the scriptural presentation of grace and predestination).
The problem most people have with the pure Calvinistic view is not predestination per se – but double predestination (asserting that God not only predestines to salvation, but also to damnation). However, those who apply sound logic understand that if God predestines some to salvation to the exclusion of others – then those not predestined to salvation are predestined to condemnation (even if through omission on God’s part). God is not responsible for their condemnation per se – they are. However, God could have saved and did not.
Frankly, I’m not 100% on the negative side of predestination. There some innovations of this doctrine that I am in accord with (for example a book by N.T. Wright, Surprised by Hope, gave me a new perspective, as well as reflecting on John 9:41).
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Cinette
Guest
You make a good point but consider this. Converting from Catholicism to a Protestant denomination is a bit like converting from Christianity to Judaism. With the former you turn your back on the Eucharist (as we accept it) and the latter you turn your back on Christ.And the many Catholics I know who came over to Protestantism are great protestants – I guess all who convert to a different denomination are more dedicated than those born into it (let’s face it anyone who converts from the religion of their birth gives something up – many times it even hurts family relations, which takes quite a bit of devotion).
Whooooa! What have I said! There is going to be an explosion!!!
I love you!
I love you I love youSola here it is 9am what is your time??
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cheese_sdc
Guest
C
Cinette
Guest
Dear Cheese -
Thanks for your response but it makes me sad. You have obviously been disappointed and I urge you to both THINK AND PRAY about this.
If you have been hurt or disappointed it is by humans not God. I get MAD sometimes at certain clergy and other lay people in the Church but I don’t let them get the better of me. I fight them and bash them over the head with the truth.
See Matt 14:24-30. There will always be weeds and thorns among the wheat. Jesus told us that. So, don’t them them get the better of you.
I hope that one day you will come home.
Cheers
C
cheese_sdc
Guest
Which Truth would you like to use for your bashing? The Taoist’s Truth? What about a Baptist’s? How about a Hindu’s? What about Jimmy Swaggert’s Truth? Jack Chick’s? Pope Pius X’s? A Jew’s? How about a Communist’s?
- Status