How many Catholic couples contracept and/or are sterlized?

[mercygate]

Your kind words are a balm, thank you. I’m not familiar with *hic et nunc *, would you translate?

"
]“Hic et nunc” means “here and now.” In other words, it is a purpose of amendment that somewhere in your heart you deeply believe cannot be sustained but that you trust in the power of Christ to MAKE IT HAPPEN. Those of us who struggle with repetitive sin (like posting on these threads half the live-long day ) are sometimes forced into this form of penitence. The great sin with repetitive sin is abandoning hope that grace will ever be sufficient to overcome our sin. Giving up is far worse than failing because it bespeaks a lack of faith.

Speaking only for myself, I deserve no praise for trying to avoid contraception and live my marriage according to Catholic teaching. Quite the contrary, I praise God for such teaching that, while sometimes difficult to implement, provides clear answers to the questions on love, sex and marriage that I’ve agonized over most of my life.

For all I give in my struggle to use NFP, God gives back more.

You may not “deserve” praise, but I find your position worthy of praise. It bespeaks a great desire for truth and a love of God on HIS terms. Many of us “want God” – few of us want Him on His own terms.

 

[mercygate]

When I used the word contraception, I’m using it in it’s literal sense. To avoid conception. That’s what your doing when you use NFP to avoid getting pregnant.

I’m not judging anybody. Never would. Just pointing out that it’s the same thing. I would caution anyone using NFP to avoid pregnancy against judging someone using any other form of birth control. Only because I see them as the same thing. I know the Church does not, but I’m just stating my own opinion.

If we really want to do things the way God intended (as I think someone else put it, not that I think I know what he intended!), it would be a man and a woman, married in the eyes of God, making love. Without any knowledge or concern about fertile/non-fertile. God decides when and if you get pregnant.

Practical in todays world? Probably not for the majority of us! Is this how my wife and I do it? No. We could not provide for more than the children we have now. So why did I write all this junk? Just because I see too many (not necessarily anyone here) NFP’ers criticizing others and taking a “holier than thou” attitude when I believe they are doing the same thing.

P.S. If I offended anyone, I appologize. It was the last thing I wanted to do.

No offense taken. Have you read Humanae vitae?

 

[SirOscar]

Not havng sex is NOT contra-ception. It is birth control but it is not contraception. Avoiding sex during the fertile time may be sinful if used with a contraceptive mentality

May I ask what is the contraceptive mentality?

When couples avoid sex when the women is fertile tells me that they are in the mindset of using NFP as contraception (a means to avoid conception). “We do not want a child right now, so thus we will not have sex”.

I have a friend, who is catholic, and has 11 children. God has Blessed her. She is 51 and her youngest is 3. NFP, in her opinion is not being open to life at all. It is birth control. She says, no matter what the method artificial or NFP, ** couples are taking control of IF AND WHEN they produce children.**

What do you say to those couples who do not want any children for what ever their reasons. They practice NFP. Are they sinning?

My post is not to offend anyone, or judge anyone. This is a highy controversial topic. There are many, many interpretations of what the church teaches. I think it is up to each married couple to choose what works for them.

 

[Good_Daughter]

When I used the word contraception, I’m using it in it’s literal sense. To avoid conception. That’s what your doing when you use NFP to avoid getting pregnant.

You seem to equate not having sex with contracepting, so I have a couple questions for you.

My husband is at work and I’m at home, are we contracepting?

When he comes home and we spend time sitting on the couch together and talking, are we contracepting?

When the day’s work is done and we go to bed together, talk some more, then fall aleep, are we contracepting?

When engaged couples abstain from sex before marriage, are they contracepting?

I’m not judging anybody. Never would. Just pointing out that it’s the same thing. I would caution anyone using NFP to avoid pregnancy against judging someone using any other form of birth control. Only because I see them as the same thing. I know the Church does not, but I’m just stating my own opinion.

Do you know why Catholicism teaches that NFP is different from other forms of birth control? On what do you base your opinion that they are the same?

Many who promote NFP do so because they have experienced (and in some cases currently experience) the damaging effects of artrificial birth control. ABC has been declared intrinsically evil by the Church for good reason. Anyone who restates this is upholding Catholic teaching, not passing judgement.

If we really want to do things the way God intended (as I think someone else put it, not that I think I know what he intended!), it would be a man and a woman, married in the eyes of God, making love. Without any knowledge or concern about fertile/non-fertile. God decides when and if you get pregnant.

Practical in todays world? Probably not for the majority of us! Is this how my wife and I do it? No. We could not provide for more than the children we have now. So why did I write all this junk? Just because I see too many (not necessarily anyone here) NFP’ers criticizing others and taking a “holier than thou” attitude when I believe they are doing the same thing.

This is not what the Church teaches, thank goodness! You seem to imply that God intends for us to do something that has become impossible in the modern age. Wouldn’t that be awfully shortsighted of him?

In reality, we’re still called to be part of the New Covenant. God calls us to Himself, body and soul (and that includes our fertility). I can tell you as a woman, fertility signs, once learned, are hard to ignore. God designs woman this way, gives us free will, and teaches us through the authority of His Church that first, children are a blessing and second, parenthood should be approached responsibly.

I don’t think you posts have been offensive at all, I think they’ve been honest. I do however, respectfully suggest that you investigate the difference between NFP and ABC before offering further opinions.

 

[kind_bean]

What do you say to those couples who do not want any children for what ever their reasons. They practice NFP. Are they sinning?

When we agree to marry in the Catholic Church, then we also agree to be open to the possibility of having children and then teaching them our faith and religion. For a couple to just say that they don’t want kids and avoid that (either by NFP or ABC) it is considered a sin. If, on the other hand, they have serious reasons, such as the woman has a medical condition that makes having a baby a serious health risk, money problems, physical or mental health, or something else that would making having children (or more children, if they have already had some) a serious hardship, then the Church allows the couple to use NFP. So, to answer your question, it depends on the reason of the couple as to why that wouldn’t want to have any or more children.

 

[mercygate]

May I ask what is the contraceptive mentality?

The “contraceptive mentality” is the disposition to consider all avoidance of conception – for whatever reason – completely a matter of personal prerogative.

When couples avoid sex when the women is fertile tells me that they are in the mindset of using NFP as contraception (a means to avoid conception). “We do not want a child right now, so thus we will not have sex”.

Take that up with the creator who put the infertile period into the plan.

I have a friend, who is catholic, and has 11 children. God has Blessed her. She is 51 and her youngest is 3. NFP, in her opinion is not being open to life at all. It is birth control. She says, no matter what the method artificial or NFP, **couples are taking control of IF AND WHEN they produce children. **

NFP IS birth control. It is NOT contraception.

What do you say to those couples who do not want any children for what ever their reasons. They practice NFP. Are they sinning?

My post is not to offend anyone, or judge anyone. This is a highy controversial topic. There are many, many interpretations of what the church teaches. I think it is up to each married couple to choose what works for them.

Your post is not offensive. It exhibits a very common view.

*Humanae vitae *specifically mentions that NFP may be used for “serious reasons”. It mentions, health, finance, and psychological exigencies. NFP is an addition to earlier teaching that would have required couples to abstain totally – perhaps for years or for the rest of their lives in a situation where a pregnancy could be a death sentence to the woman.

I am not sure whether you are saying that it is ALWAYS sinful to avoid pregnancy or that it is OK to use NFP if you “do not want any children” for whatever reason.

This is by no means a “controversial” subject. Being unwillng to conceive children at all is an impediment to a valid marriage.

Avoiding conception by licit means and obstructing conception by distorting the marital act are, morally, two very different things. A lot of people have trouble understanding the distinction, but once the lightbulb goes on, you wonder how you ever could have missed the point.

 

[newbetx]

When I used the word contraception, I’m using it in it’s literal sense. To avoid conception. That’s what your doing when you use NFP to avoid getting pregnant.

Thanks for the clarification. And that helps us understand your perspective. I would, however, want to make a clarification. While the result is the same, the methods are not. With NFP you give up something (sex periodically). With contracepted sex, you place the pleasure of sex above what God intended sex to be. So that is what we see as the difference.

I’m not judging anybody. Never would. Just pointing out that it’s the same thing. I would caution anyone using NFP to avoid pregnancy against judging someone using any other form of birth control. Only because I see them as the same thing. I know the Church does not, but I’m just stating my own opinion.

Sorry if some come across as judgemental. This is, as you understand, a subject that is very sensitive to some. I, too, do not wish to judge, but I do wish to try to convey what the Church is teaching for those that wish to understand. If you don’t care why the Church teaches NFP vs. ABC, you are certainly within your right to do so. Other forums and other people will be very willing to tell anyone about the Catholic ramifications of not following the rules even if one doesn’t understand them. But I’ll pass.

If we really want to do things the way God intended (as I think someone else put it, not that I think I know what he intended!), …

Well, some of us are trying to say what the Church thinks He intended. Again, it’s up to you to accept it or not.

If we really want to do things the way God intended (as I think someone else put it, not that I think I know what he intended!), it would be a man and a woman, married in the eyes of God, making love. Without any knowledge or concern about fertile/non-fertile. God decides when and if you get pregnant.

You know, I honestly don’t think it is meant to work this way. Near as I can tell, God made a process. And it’s not “perfect” as we might call it, but “perfect” in a way that works for Him. Fertility is as individual as the individual. Some are more so, some are less so. But those with great fertility aren’t all required to have large families or to only have sex when we wish to have another child, or some that struggle with infertility aren’t “blest” with the ability to have sex more often without the blessing of a child. Why was the man born blind? To show the glory of God. We are all called to show the Love of God in everything we do. Even how we have sex.

… Without any knowledge or concern about fertile/non-fertile. God decides when and if you get pregnant.

Many people feel this way, and it’s just fine if that is how they want to approach it. It would be wrong to say that what is in the CCC that allows NFP “is wrong” or judge harshly those that make use of it.

Practical in todays world? Probably not for the majority of us! Is this how my wife and I do it? No. We could not provide for more than the children we have now. So why did I write all this junk? Just because I see too many (not necessarily anyone here) NFP’ers criticizing others and taking a “holier than thou” attitude when I believe they are doing the same thing.

Again, there are differences here. Not in the result but in the execution. And while you may not feel the need to understand the differences, many of us here think you should.

P.S. If I offended anyone, I appologize. It was the last thing I wanted to do.

I understand and neither do I wish to offend. I do feel the requirement to attempt to inform. And it’s not like I didn’t feel like you for many years. TOB explains it well. I would hope you would at least read about it and think about it. TOB changed my life for the better. I’m not the only one, either.

Peace!

 

[Mystic_of_God]

I agree with this post.

Besides, if it’s true that 94% to 96% of Catholics are using artificial birth control, if all of them can’t be real Catholics, the church’s numbers would be pretty much decimated, wouldn’t they?

Hate the sin, love the sinner…!!!

But publicly denying the Church teaching on sex, that’s heresy.

 

[SirOscar]

You are obviously defensive.

You seem to equate not having sex with contracepting, so I have a couple questions for you.

My husband is at work and I’m at home, are we contracepting?
NO, but are you making the decision to have sex?

When he comes home and we spend time sitting on the couch together and talking, are we contracepting?
NO, but are you making the decision to have sex?

When the day’s work is done and we go to bed together, talk some more, then fall aleep, are we contracepting?
NO, but are you making the descision to have sex

When engaged couples abstain from sex before marriage, are they contracepting?
No, they do not want to commit fornication.

When one has the option to have sex, does one not decide if it is safe? Does one not look at all the signs of her body and decide that having sex with the spouse will produce a child? A choice is made based on those signs with the mindset of contraception.

It is either yes our union will produce but we will not have sex because we do not want children, or no we will not produce a child so we can safely participate in sex.

She says, no matter what the method artificial or NFP, couples are taking control of IF AND WHEN they produce children.

We are still in control of what God designed.

 

[fix]

My husband is at work and I’m at home, are we contracepting?
NO, but are you making the decision to have sex?

Right. How is that contracepting? Unless you redefine that word to mean abstaining means against conception?

When he comes home and we spend time sitting on the couch together and talking, are we contracepting?
NO, but are you making the decision to have sex?

Right, to abstain.

When the day’s work is done and we go to bed together, talk some more, then fall aleep, are we contracepting?
NO, but are you making the descision to have sex

Right, abstaining.

When one has the option to have sex, does one not decide if it is safe? Does one not look at all the signs of her body and decide that having sex with the spouse will produce a child? A choice is made based on those signs with the mindset of contraception.

How does that follow? Contraception, by definition, is rendering the act of intercourse infertile in some manner. That is changing the very action. If one wills their act be infertile that may be a sin, but it is not contraception.

It is either yes our union will produce but we will not have sex because we do not want children, or no we will not produce a child so we can safely participate in sex.

Why is there a female cycle? Is having intercourse during an infertile time some how less than intercourse?

 

[newbetx]

When couples avoid sex when the women is fertile tells me that they are in the mindset of using NFP as contraception (a means to avoid conception). “We do not want a child right now, so thus we will not have sex”.

True. And if it is for various “grave” reasons and not selfish reasons, it is allowable.

I have a friend, who is catholic, and has 11 children. God has Blessed her. She is 51 and her youngest is 3. NFP, in her opinion is not being open to life at all. It is birth control. She says, no matter what the method artificial or NFP, couples are taking control of IF AND WHEN they produce children.

I truely admire this woman. What a selfless situation she has embraced. But their choice to not use NFP is their choice. To judge others for using it or the Church for allowing it is wrong. She may have an improper understanding of NFP. Many wrongfully understand NFP as “Catholic Birth Control.” While it can be misused, it is not the intent of NFP to be abused. Many do, I’m afraid, but certainly not all. Many have stated it is wrong to use NFP UNTIL grave circumstances require it. And if you look at NFP methods as methods only to avoid conception, then one is missing out on something very good, indeed.

What do you say to those couples who do not want any children for what ever their reasons. They practice NFP. Are they sinning?

Let me change it some. Change “what ever reasons” to “selfish reasons”… OK? Yes, they would be sinning. The Pharisees are alive and well, even today. While one may follow the rules to the letter, it does not change the sin that may be present in one’s heart.
There are ligitimate reasons for not having children or more children. The Church recognizes this. These are very personal and unique to the couple. But that would be something that developed after the marriage. You shouldn’t get married without the willingness to have children in the first place.

My post is not to offend anyone, or judge anyone. This is a highy controversial topic. There are many, many interpretations of what the church teaches. I think it is up to each married couple to choose what works for them.

You are right. And the Church’s guidelines are very clear. Clearer than some want to believe. You can choose to use NFP or nothing or abstenance. But you must do so in an unselfish way. Golly, why do we need even more choices? Selfishness?

 

[kind_bean]

I am confused… how can NFP be called contraception? I admit that it is definitely birth control, but contraception is “Intentional prevention of conception or impregnation through the use of various devices, agents, drugs, sexual practices, or surgical procedures.” How is abstaining for intercourse during a fertile time, contraception. It seems like there would have to be a sex act done to consider that contraception was use…

 

[beckycmarie]

Same here, kevinsgirl. 5 years of marriage, no living children and not for lack of trying. I’m sure many think we’re contracepting and are thus “Catholic” (which I assume is meant to be derogatory and judgemental). Whatever happened to assuming the best of people?

That has happened to me, too. Same exact boat as you, Jen. Married 5 years in April and have never once used contraceptives, and haven’t been able to conceive due to my PCOS.

People at work are starting to ask, “why don’t you have any kids yet?” as if I am choosing not to have them. I just tell them straight up “because I’m infertile.” The look of “open mouth insert foot” that they get is priceless.

 

[newbetx]

I am confused… how can NFP be called contraception? I admit that it is definitely birth control, but contraception is “Intentional prevention of conception or impregnation through the use of various devices, agents, drugs, sexual practices, or surgical procedures.” How is abstaining for intercourse during a fertile time, contraception. It seems like there would have to be a sex act done to consider that contraception was use…

The confusion is that some look at the result instead of the action or lack of action that can cause the result.

“the result justifies the means.” vs. “The result was accomplished using justifiable means.”

 

[MannaG]

I don’t normally jump in on these threads, but I have just a little something to offer for those who feel that NFP is contraception…

NFP, when viewed as it is meant to be viewed, is not a way to have as much sex as possible and just abstain minimally to avoid conception. NFP is actually the alternative to complete and total abstinence.

If a couple has serious reason to avoid pregnancy, they either choose to completely abstain until that reason is no longer present (if that ever happens), or they choose to practice NFP in order to preserve the unity that the marital embrace provides to their marriage, while also remaining open to life should God choose to create it regardless of what time in the woman’s cycle it is.

I will concede that there are many who do view NFP as the alternative to ABC rather than the alternative to abstinence, but that is not the way it is intended.

 

[newbetx]

That has happened to me, too. Same exact boat as you, Jen. Married 5 years in April and have never once used contraceptives, and haven’t been able to conceive due to my PCOS.

People at work are starting to ask, “why don’t you have any kids yet?” as if I am choosing not to have them. I just tell them straight up “because I’m infertile.” The look of “open mouth insert foot” that they get is priceless.

Are these the same folks that ask after the third is on the way “Haven’t you figured out what causes this, yet?”

My friend has an interesting story. They, too were infertile. So they chose to adopt. They day they got word the adoption went through, they also found out she was pregnant… Eventually they had triplet girls and a 6 month older boy… that, too got them some interesting looks.

 

[mercygate]

I don’t normally jump in on these threads, but I have just a little something to offer for those who feel that NFP is contraception…

NFP, when viewed as it is meant to be viewed, is not a way to have as much sex as possible and just abstain minimally to avoid conception. **NFP is actually the alternative to complete and total abstinence. **

Are you and I the only two people on the planet who understand this?

I said it half a mile up-thread with absolutely no response. Thank you for the affirmation. :tiphat:

I will concede that there are many who do view NFP as the alternative to ABC rather than the alternative to abstinence, but that is not the way it is intended.

Get that, everybody?

 

[newbetx]

Get that, everybody?

NEWBETX: Message recieved!

Some others: http://bestsmileys.com/notlistening/2.gif

 

[LJN21]

My post is not to offend anyone, or judge anyone. This is a highy controversial topic. There are many, many interpretations of what the church teaches. I think it is up to each married couple to choose what works for them.

I’m sorry but the Church could not be clearer on this topic. The only reason it is highly controversial is because people are not willing to listen or educate themselves on what the church teaches.

The Church has always, unwaveringly taught contraceptives are immoral.

vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_31121930_casti-connubii_en.html
Casti Connubii:

1. But no reason, however grave, may be put forward by which anything intrinsically against nature may become conformable to nature and morally good. Since, therefore, the conjugal act is destined primarily by nature for the begetting of children, those who in exercising it deliberately frustrate its natural power and purpose sin against nature and commit a deed which is shameful and intrinsically vicious.
2. Small wonder, therefore, if Holy Writ bears witness that the Divine Majesty regards with greatest detestation this horrible crime and at times has punished it with death. As St. Augustine notes, “Intercourse even with one’s legitimate wife is unlawful and wicked where the conception of the offspring is prevented. Onan, the son of Juda, did this and the Lord killed him for it.”[45]

Emphasis mine.

 

[beckycmarie]

Are these the same folks that ask after the third is on the way “Haven’t you figured out what causes this, yet?”

My friend has an interesting story. They, too were infertile. So they chose to adopt. They day they got word the adoption went through, they also found out she was pregnant… Eventually they had triplet girls and a 6 month older boy… that, too got them some interesting looks.

I have heard that same story so many times - people that couldn’t have babies suddenly getting pregnant when they let go of working at it and are in the adoption process.

Hubs and I will likely begin that process within the next year.