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edwest211
Guest
This is not Church teaching. Man’s identity includes a soul and Creation is far more. After the Fall, a literal event, the Son of God was sent to intervene.
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Hobgoblin
Guest
So you think God is good enough to create a universe with light, gravity, oxygen, etc., all assembled exactly as needed for life, but not good enough to get things EXACTLY right. So he has to come back and tweak things to get it just so.
I’m not as versed in Church teaching as I’d like to be, but I don’t think this statement of yours, or anything I said, are in conflict with any teaching I’m aware of. Can you be more specific?
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edwest211
Guest
The following information is usually missing:
Communion and Stewardship
"But it is important to note that, according to the Catholic understanding of divine causality, true contingency in the created order is not incompatible with a purposeful divine providence. Divine causality and created causality radically differ in kind and not only in degree. Thus, even the outcome of a truly contingent natural process can nonetheless fall within God’s providential plan for creation. According to St. Thomas Aquinas: “The effect of divine providence is not only that things should happen somehow, but that they should happen either by necessity or by contingency. Therefore, whatsoever divine providence ordains to happen infallibly and of necessity happens infallibly and of necessity; and that happens from contingency, which the divine providence conceives to happen from contingency” ( Summa theologiae, I, 22,4 ad 1). In the Catholic perspective, neo-Darwinians who adduce random genetic variation and natural selection as evidence that the process of evolution is absolutely unguided are straying beyond what can be demonstrated by science. Divine causality can be active in a process that is both contingent and guided. Any evolutionary mechanism that is contingent can only be contingent because God made it so. An unguided evolutionary process – one that falls outside the bounds of divine providence – simply cannot exist because “the causality of God, Who is the first agent, extends to all being, not only as to constituent principles of species, but also as to the individualizing principles…It necessarily follows that all things, inasmuch as they participate in existence, must likewise be subject to divine providence” ( Summa theologiae I, 22, 2).
Communion and Stewardship
"But it is important to note that, according to the Catholic understanding of divine causality, true contingency in the created order is not incompatible with a purposeful divine providence. Divine causality and created causality radically differ in kind and not only in degree. Thus, even the outcome of a truly contingent natural process can nonetheless fall within God’s providential plan for creation. According to St. Thomas Aquinas: “The effect of divine providence is not only that things should happen somehow, but that they should happen either by necessity or by contingency. Therefore, whatsoever divine providence ordains to happen infallibly and of necessity happens infallibly and of necessity; and that happens from contingency, which the divine providence conceives to happen from contingency” ( Summa theologiae, I, 22,4 ad 1). In the Catholic perspective, neo-Darwinians who adduce random genetic variation and natural selection as evidence that the process of evolution is absolutely unguided are straying beyond what can be demonstrated by science. Divine causality can be active in a process that is both contingent and guided. Any evolutionary mechanism that is contingent can only be contingent because God made it so. An unguided evolutionary process – one that falls outside the bounds of divine providence – simply cannot exist because “the causality of God, Who is the first agent, extends to all being, not only as to constituent principles of species, but also as to the individualizing principles…It necessarily follows that all things, inasmuch as they participate in existence, must likewise be subject to divine providence” ( Summa theologiae I, 22, 2).
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Hobgoblin
Guest
Was that a reply to me? First, I’m not sure where that comes from. I know Aquinas is held in high regard, but I don’t think everything he ever said is accepted as official Church teaching. But what did I say that conflicts with that anyway?
To be clear: I believe that the universe was created by God and he knew exactly what he was setting himself up for. He didn’t necessarily dictate that Ravens would be black and Robins red, etc. (although he might have), but the important part is that he set up a universe that would work on its own without the need for supernatural intervention.
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Lion_IRC
Guest
I bet God thinks the earth is still quite young.
…how many days has it been since He created it?
…how many days has it been since He created it?
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edwest211
Guest
That is not the Catholic understanding. God worked infallibly in His Creation. He knew what Adam would look like. I have seen many attempts to include a God lite version into the mix. That is incorrect.
Jesus Christ was literally born, lived, died for all men and rose from the dead.
Jesus Christ was literally born, lived, died for all men and rose from the dead.
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Bradskii
Guest
Makes no sense. But thanks for your attempt to explain it.Bradskii:
Obviously, the scientific approach cannot explain all of reality. For example, the scientific approach cannot demonstrate the existence of God or the human soul or the distinction between good and evil, virtue and vice, heaven and hell, or morals.
I don’t believe God created this world by natural processes alone lasting billions of years. The universe may be billions of years old but as I said above, that does not necessarily mean in my belief the stories of scientific naturalism.
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Hobgoblin
Guest
Maybe he did know what Adam would look like. I don’t have a problem with that. Maybe you can point me to something in the Catechism that states this?
My point is that he can (and given our current scientific understanding almost certainly did) create everything through natural processes.
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edwest211
Guest
If you read other posts here, the science only explanation excludes God.
Catechism
[297] Scripture bears witness to faith in creation “out of nothing” as a truth full of promise and hope. Thus the mother of seven sons encourages them for martyrdom:
I do not know how you came into being in my womb. It was not I who gave you life and breath, nor I who set in order the elements within each of you. Therefore the Creator of the world, who shaped the beginning of man and devised the origin of all things, will in his mercy give life and breath back to you again, since you now forget yourselves for the sake of his laws. . . Look at the heaven and the earth and see everything that is in them, and recognize that God did not make them out of things that existed. Thus also mankind comes into being.147
[301] With creation, God does not abandon his creatures to themselves. He not only gives them being and existence, but also, and at every moment, upholds and sustains them in being, enables them to act and brings them to their final end. Recognizing this utter dependence with respect to the Creator is a source of wisdom and freedom, of joy and confidence:
For you love all things that exist, and detest none of the things that you have made; for you would not have made anything if you had hated it. How would anything have endured, if you had not willed it? Or how would anything not called forth by you have been preserved? You spare all things, for they are yours, O Lord, you who love the living.160
Some admit that the world was made by God, but as by a watch-maker who, once he has made a watch, abandons it to itself (Deism).
Catechism
[297] Scripture bears witness to faith in creation “out of nothing” as a truth full of promise and hope. Thus the mother of seven sons encourages them for martyrdom:
I do not know how you came into being in my womb. It was not I who gave you life and breath, nor I who set in order the elements within each of you. Therefore the Creator of the world, who shaped the beginning of man and devised the origin of all things, will in his mercy give life and breath back to you again, since you now forget yourselves for the sake of his laws. . . Look at the heaven and the earth and see everything that is in them, and recognize that God did not make them out of things that existed. Thus also mankind comes into being.147
[301] With creation, God does not abandon his creatures to themselves. He not only gives them being and existence, but also, and at every moment, upholds and sustains them in being, enables them to act and brings them to their final end. Recognizing this utter dependence with respect to the Creator is a source of wisdom and freedom, of joy and confidence:
For you love all things that exist, and detest none of the things that you have made; for you would not have made anything if you had hated it. How would anything have endured, if you had not willed it? Or how would anything not called forth by you have been preserved? You spare all things, for they are yours, O Lord, you who love the living.160
Some admit that the world was made by God, but as by a watch-maker who, once he has made a watch, abandons it to itself (Deism).
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MagdalenaRita
Guest
This is the first verse I could think of that would not go a long with that theory.
Matthew 6:26 - Behold the birds of the air, for they neither sow, nor do they reap, nor gather into barns: and your heavenly Father feedeth them.
If God says He feeds the birds, I believe He has a very intimate hand in every other tiny detail of creation; their color, every worm, every blade of grass, every cloud,…
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Hobgoblin
Guest
I think you might be confusing science with materialism. Science is agnostic.
Nothing I’ve said conflicts those excerpts. God is involved with his creation. He doesn’t have to supernaturally poof things into existence though. He doesn’t even have to “gently nudge” things. How spectacular a God is it that could snap the big bang understanding full well it would result in life on Earth 14B years later!
Yes, he feeds them by creating the world around them that provides them with food. No conflict.
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edwest211
Guest
The conflict exists. But God tells us:
New International Version
Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care.
New Living Translation
What is the price of two sparrows—one copper coin ? But not a single sparrow can fall to the ground without your Father knowing it.
English Standard Version
Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father.
New International Version
Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care.
New Living Translation
What is the price of two sparrows—one copper coin ? But not a single sparrow can fall to the ground without your Father knowing it.
English Standard Version
Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father.
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MagdalenaRita
Guest
Thank you. That was the verse I was trying to think of, which then follows: the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
He knows all the tiny details.
He knows all the tiny details.
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Greenfields
Guest
From one Australian to another,could you please try and not goad certain members @Bradskii ?edwest211:
Not banned. It’s just been pointed out that you are fond of asking questions but always avoid answering them. This will serve as an example:
How old is the planet, Ed?
Crickets…tumbling tumbleweed…the sound of silence.
It’s kind of embarrassing
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BroIgnatius
Guest
If you are going to use abbreviations or acronyms that are not common to the whole human race, place define it. What is a YEC?
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Hobgoblin
Guest
YEC is an acronym for Young Earth Creationist. It’s someone who reads the Genesis creation account literally, and consequently believes the Earth is less than 10k years old.
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BroIgnatius
Guest
Ah, okay. Thanks.
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MagdalenaRita
Guest
Maybe he is ignoring your bullying, which is pretty smart.
This is a Christian forum and no one needs calling out.
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edwest211
Guest
You are making this too personal. You should “chill out” as the Americans say.
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JimG
Guest
It’s interesting that though the planet is about 4.5 billion years old, written records by humans only go back about 6,000 years, although no doubt there was spoken language before writing was invented. Maybe that aspect of human beings has something to do with the creation of the soul.
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